I'd set up an alarm with the camera. Can you pull the camera up on the web?
Vicious Wake, 1 man down.
- Thread starter Mule
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I'd set up an alarm with the camera. Can you pull the camera up on the web?
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, I have it set up with motion sensing now to email a photo.
Problem is that I have the interior set up with motion sensors, siren, etc... but not the cockpit.
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, I have read that as well, many times.
The challenge is defining negligent. The mere operation a boat at it's designed speed, in an uncontrolled area does not make for negligence. The mere operation of your boat at its designed speed, in the close proximity to other boats does not make for negligence.
If that were the case then the USCG would be issuing citations at the mouth of every harbor I've seen.
Thats why we have no wake and speed restricted zones on waterways.
The lack of such, implies the ability to operate a boat at its designed speed.
Now...Not keeping a sharp lookout, does make for negligence. We have a duty to keep a sharp lookout, and to be aware of our surroundings. We have a duty to keep our boats in a ship shape manner, making them safe if we experience the normal conditions at sea. This form of negligence is much easier to prove, in my opinion.
The cruxt is to try to find some case law that shows the USCG procecuting a recreational boater for driving his boat at its designed speed un a uncontrolled area. Try to find some caselaw where someone was sued and lost, in the federal court system.
You won't find many, if any. The ones you do find will be undoubtedly a situation where someone clearly showed negligence. Such as blazing through a no wake zone, or something other than just operating their boat up on plane.
We need to remember that it's not the exact words written into a law that are important. What is important is how the courts have ruled on various aspects of that law.
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dhays
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I agree that a term such as "negligent" is tough. Each state has its own laws and definitions. My guess is that AK differs from the lower 48 in this regard. In Washington, the law is clear that causing danger from the effects of a vessel's wake is negligent operation. It also says that excessive boat wake may be enforced as negligent operation with a fine of $343 in addition to any responsibility for damage through a civil lawsuit.
I would agree that it probably doesn't happen often, but that doesn't change the fact that at least in WA a boater is responsible for the effects of their wake.
I would also disagree that if a waterway doesn't have a posted speed limit that it then means that a vessel can travel at whatever speed it is designed for. The operator still has to operate the vessel in a negligent way that would pose a risk to persons or property.
I am sure that many feel that I and others are overly sensitive to the effects of wakes. At the same time I tend to feel that there are way to many inconsiderate boaters out there who make close passes at speed where it not only is unnecessary but unsafe. I think the answer is likely to be considerate.
Back in the day, there was a network of dial up bulletin boards called Fidonet. They had two rules. 1) Don't be excessively annoying, and 2) Don't be easily annoyed. I am very happy to try and not be easily annoyed by the wakes of my fellow boaters. I only ask that they try and not be excessively annoying with their wakes.
BruceK
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Read those 2 paragraphs together and some understanding of negligence in the operation of one boat upon another emerges. Though I suspect you are intentionally misapplying the "lookout" obligation solely to the overtaken boat, as well as confusing primary and contributory negligence.
There is no automatic right to operate a vessel at speed in close proximity to another at whatever speed it may be capable of. There is every prospect that will, to use your words, "make for negligence". Negligence is negligence, it does not have multiple forms. Confusing criminal and civil liabilities does not help either.
If you are "keeping a proper lookout", you will see the vessel you are approaching at speed to overtake. You will or ought to know that your speed and resultant wake has the propensity to cause damage to the vessel in question, and/or its crew.You now have a "duty of care". In those circumstances you are obliged to take alternative action to mitigate the risk, failing to do so is likely negligent and creates a liability. Reduce speed, slow down and remain astern until a pass is safe, pass at a safe distance, etc etc. There are many options, but a close fast deep wake pass is not one of them.
This is not the first time "wake" has been debated at TF. It took personal injury to a member for some to appreciate the situation. It may be little solace to Mule, but some good has come of his unnecessary and avoidable injury. TF has "I can wake pretty much anyone" supporters, who there is little prospect of persuading of their obligations to their fellow man, let alone observing common courtesy to others, and in that respect the above inevitably falls on some deaf ears.
For personal reasons I can empathize with back injury sufferers, it is very good to know a recovery is underway.
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psneeld
Guru
So many "ifs" in wake situations.....
Some are more clear, some less clear.
Live and work on the water, cruise thousands of miles on crowded waterways each year, run many different size and kinds of boats, and really understand why people do what they do with their boats and the picure becomes more clear why there is the constant conflict about wakes.
The "absolutes" that people read into state statutes can usually be easily defeated in a marine hearing.....as there are few absolutes as we often see in navrules cases.
Sure there are wakes that are absolutely insanely avoidable, and there are wakes that should be expected and handled in a seaman like manner.
There are a lot of factors that need to be weighed before a "simple" wake issue can be evaluated.
Some are more clear, some less clear.
Live and work on the water, cruise thousands of miles on crowded waterways each year, run many different size and kinds of boats, and really understand why people do what they do with their boats and the picure becomes more clear why there is the constant conflict about wakes.
The "absolutes" that people read into state statutes can usually be easily defeated in a marine hearing.....as there are few absolutes as we often see in navrules cases.
Sure there are wakes that are absolutely insanely avoidable, and there are wakes that should be expected and handled in a seaman like manner.
There are a lot of factors that need to be weighed before a "simple" wake issue can be evaluated.
markpierce
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Who can I sue for the five-foot-tall-and-steep-waves in the "protected" San Francisco Greater Bay Waters? ... Five-mile-an-hour speed zones are primarily to protect docked boats and their docks. ... Boat wakes are part of the natural environment as much as those caused by nature. Gotta keep a keen 360-degree lookout. ... Not questioning that some boaters abuse others with their wakes. ... On radio, local ship traffic here say they are proceeding with minimal wake. ... Can recreational boaters take the clue?
One difficulty in discussing wakes on TF is that none of us were there, we each interpret what happened differently. We don't all picture what took place the same. What speed, what distance, what size wake. It's hard to feel or picture when not there. It's not just wake. We've had this issue of other happenings in narrow channels, failure to yield to other boats. We have the same problem in interpreting rough seas. Is it a 6' swell or 6' wind wave? What period? What boat? What inlet? We each have different tolerances there but the real issue is we don't picture the same thing from a description.
I think there's also a natural conflict between the "all wakes are bad" and the "if there's no speed limit, I'll do what I want" crowd. It seems like absolutes but I think most here, if not all, would agree that some wakes are bad and others are acceptable.
I'd offer only the following. Always be prepared to be waked and always be aware of the potential of any wake you create and try not to cause harm to others. I think many people, including trawler owners, don't really know their own wakes. Look back some at different speeds. Every boat and every speed has a different pattern. For instance, our Riva looks to be creating a huge wake but it's mostly the chines of the boat and it's a very narrow wake. Within that width we would badly wake another boat. Taking off we're careful that no one is directly behind us. Now, outside that width, there is no more than a ripple. We do go moderately fast through some areas, although we prefer to do it outside, but we make sure to swing so that boats are not caught in what I'd refer to as our wake zone. I've seen people pull back and slow down to not wake someone but not do it soon enough and their wake is increased dramatically as they slow. They needed to either slow down sooner or take a wide sweep and wait to slow until after they pass the boat to their side. We look carefully at other boats we pass to be sure we didn't wake them and, if somehow we gave more wake that we wish, to know how to correct next time. I've passed a lot of boats out there that are in what I'd call "plow mode." They think they're going slow and all is well, but they've found the worst possible speed they can go.
I think there's also a natural conflict between the "all wakes are bad" and the "if there's no speed limit, I'll do what I want" crowd. It seems like absolutes but I think most here, if not all, would agree that some wakes are bad and others are acceptable.
I'd offer only the following. Always be prepared to be waked and always be aware of the potential of any wake you create and try not to cause harm to others. I think many people, including trawler owners, don't really know their own wakes. Look back some at different speeds. Every boat and every speed has a different pattern. For instance, our Riva looks to be creating a huge wake but it's mostly the chines of the boat and it's a very narrow wake. Within that width we would badly wake another boat. Taking off we're careful that no one is directly behind us. Now, outside that width, there is no more than a ripple. We do go moderately fast through some areas, although we prefer to do it outside, but we make sure to swing so that boats are not caught in what I'd refer to as our wake zone. I've seen people pull back and slow down to not wake someone but not do it soon enough and their wake is increased dramatically as they slow. They needed to either slow down sooner or take a wide sweep and wait to slow until after they pass the boat to their side. We look carefully at other boats we pass to be sure we didn't wake them and, if somehow we gave more wake that we wish, to know how to correct next time. I've passed a lot of boats out there that are in what I'd call "plow mode." They think they're going slow and all is well, but they've found the worst possible speed they can go.
markpierce
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Taking defensive maneuvers (head toward wake, reduce speed) happens as often as not because of heavy boats exceeding hull speed.
My "horrific" wake:
My "horrific" wake:
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CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
psneeld
Guru
Like rats in a cage...the more crammed into a smaller space, the more likely they are to attack each other...
Same with boaters...the overwhelming jamming of waterways with fishermen blocking the channel, no wake zones where they shouldn't exist, people not trying to make for smoother flow.....just makes many think free-for-all.
Boating is easy and pleasurable when there is no one around to worry about.....unfortunately some areas resemble rush hour and road rage or lack of caring prevails.
Same with boaters...the overwhelming jamming of waterways with fishermen blocking the channel, no wake zones where they shouldn't exist, people not trying to make for smoother flow.....just makes many think free-for-all.
Boating is easy and pleasurable when there is no one around to worry about.....unfortunately some areas resemble rush hour and road rage or lack of caring prevails.
Lou_tribal
Guru
What is a pity is that it is coming down to suing somebody, what is the law etc... What a shame that people cannot be just respectful of each other and just behave like if they were in the same situation. I am pretty sure people waking others hate to be waked but are just so selfish that they don't care doing it to others but are upset when receiving the same...
Can't we just use common sense and respect each other, at the end we are all mariners, loving the same, enjoying the same...
Can't we just use common sense and respect each other, at the end we are all mariners, loving the same, enjoying the same...
markpierce
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Fishermen in channel: pardon our wake.
psneeld
Guru
Simplistic view of a more complicated issue where I am from.
Who is showing more or less respect. .....the guy using the boat super highway to get someplace in a reasonable amount of time.....or the guy in a 12 foot aluminum skiff fishing in the channel when there are thousands of acres of fishable water all around...not in the middle of the boat super highway?
I have lived and breathed this question for a very long time, on both sides of that equation and I don't have the answer...except I would hope the guy in the tin boat shouldn't expect every boat to slow down for him and his 10,000 selfish companions who feel the ICW is all their own.
Nope...not so simple in my mind.....
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
I will slow down if approaching a fishing boat. Not really slow but enough to lessen my wake. Now, if I see a non fishing boat with a family and kids or just kids, I slow WAY down. Chances are the "family/kids" boat are just local visitors and not boaters so will be unused to and less able to handle a larger wake. Occasionally I will see...ahem..."larger" fisher-folk in say, an 8' John boat. Dead slow when passing.
I've been "surprised" by a fast pass. My fault entirely and no damage done. I usually catch the passer out of the corner of my eye and thus far have been able to yell "hold on". I need a rear-view mirror on the FB.
I always try to contact anyone I pass.
I will slow down if approaching a fishing boat. Not really slow but enough to lessen my wake. Now, if I see a non fishing boat with a family and kids or just kids, I slow WAY down. Chances are the "family/kids" boat are just local visitors and not boaters so will be unused to and less able to handle a larger wake. Occasionally I will see...ahem..."larger" fisher-folk in say, an 8' John boat. Dead slow when passing.
I've been "surprised" by a fast pass. My fault entirely and no damage done. I usually catch the passer out of the corner of my eye and thus far have been able to yell "hold on". I need a rear-view mirror on the FB.
I always try to contact anyone I pass.
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Lou_tribal
Guru
Mister RTF as usually I am delighted by the brightess of your spirit. Well no not usually but often 
Those wakers are the cause of more and more slow speed zones.
If people behaved reasonably there would be no need. More stupid ignorant people will cause more mandatory slow speed zones. Eventually everything within the three mile limit will be slow speed.
If people behaved reasonably there would be no need. More stupid ignorant people will cause more mandatory slow speed zones. Eventually everything within the three mile limit will be slow speed.
psneeld
Guru
Actually, North Carolina passed a law, no new no wake zones without state approval.
Most new construction along the ACIW has boats in lifts and no official no wake posted.
Now that jet skis are what they are, the next great water battle I predicted was no wake zones.....seems to be true in NC.
Most new construction along the ACIW has boats in lifts and no official no wake posted.
Now that jet skis are what they are, the next great water battle I predicted was no wake zones.....seems to be true in NC.
Read post #42 above.
OP
OP
Mule
Guru
Got the co pay $250 MRI today even though I am back to normal. I have a bum knee with a Ortho guy next week that was set up with already X Ray and MRI. Insofar as I already have a CatScan, X Ray on the back I followed through with the back MRI. Present them all to Dr Ortho.
I want to know what to expect in the future. When and if a refit is necessary I would like to dread it all for awhile.
Thanks again for ya All's concern.
I will reiterate, the only way to share the misery with the big wake throwers is to use 16 and 911 to try to entice a law enforcement boarding of the offender. Nothing good comes out of a boarding, but lots of potential for bad.
I want to know what to expect in the future. When and if a refit is necessary I would like to dread it all for awhile.
Thanks again for ya All's concern.
I will reiterate, the only way to share the misery with the big wake throwers is to use 16 and 911 to try to entice a law enforcement boarding of the offender. Nothing good comes out of a boarding, but lots of potential for bad.
Grande Mariner
Member
This is a very interesting thread. My wife and I are planning on buying a trawler in a few years and hopefully do the great loop. I am not looking forward the inevitable situation that Mule was in. I hope these situations are few and far between.
Although, I only have a small fishing boat at the moment, I have been on both sides of this. I usually (but not always) slow down for kayakers, especially if there are kids on them. On the other hand, I have been staked out on the side the intracoastal waterway fishing at low tide (no creeks to go in because they are too shallow at low tide) when a sportfish, or large pleasure craft, goes by at cruising speed throwing a "large" wake. More than once I have filled my cockpit full of water. Thanks to large scuppers, everything was fine.
Based on discussions here, I googled more about this issue and found the following article written by lawyers in Miami. This article seems to imply more liability here than some of the previous posts have indicated. I am not an attorney. Read this and decide for yourself.
Boat Wake Damage Liability - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS
Years ago in my area there were two elderly fishermen fishing the intracoastal waterway in my area when a large sportfish passed at cruising speed. The jon boat they were in was swamped and one of the fisherman had a heart attack and drown. There were rumors that law enforcement was looking for the captain of the sportfish and planned on charging him with involuntary manslaughter. I never heard any more about it after that.
Although, I only have a small fishing boat at the moment, I have been on both sides of this. I usually (but not always) slow down for kayakers, especially if there are kids on them. On the other hand, I have been staked out on the side the intracoastal waterway fishing at low tide (no creeks to go in because they are too shallow at low tide) when a sportfish, or large pleasure craft, goes by at cruising speed throwing a "large" wake. More than once I have filled my cockpit full of water. Thanks to large scuppers, everything was fine.
Based on discussions here, I googled more about this issue and found the following article written by lawyers in Miami. This article seems to imply more liability here than some of the previous posts have indicated. I am not an attorney. Read this and decide for yourself.
Boat Wake Damage Liability - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS
Years ago in my area there were two elderly fishermen fishing the intracoastal waterway in my area when a large sportfish passed at cruising speed. The jon boat they were in was swamped and one of the fisherman had a heart attack and drown. There were rumors that law enforcement was looking for the captain of the sportfish and planned on charging him with involuntary manslaughter. I never heard any more about it after that.
silentfaith
Senior Member
i am not a sailor but talking to one awhile back said he does not say anything at all when waked and if the morons boat happens to be at the same marina he gets a couple of ink pens and breaks them up to get at the ink tube ties them into a knot and tosses them on the deck at night , if it is teak it will never come out. said he has done it two times. just one guys revenge.
Just one guy that if I observed it or caught it on camera would be arrested for vandalism too. I don't understand this revenge attitude. Two wrongs still don't make a right.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Fully agree with Mr. BB. Criminal. If anyone told me that, I'd publicly identify them and report them.
Fully agree with Mr. BB. Criminal. If anyone told me that, I'd publicly identify them and report them.
Lou_tribal
Guru
[...] and then the first man seeing the second one inking his boat will put his boat on fire and then the second one seeing this will do that and on and on and it will never ends... looks like a common story in the world...
Can't just people respect each other instead of playing this kind of game... ok I know I am an utopist thinking that on water it would be different than on land.
Can't just people respect each other instead of playing this kind of game... ok I know I am an utopist thinking that on water it would be different than on land.
BruceK
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Operators of vessels waked by another vessel will have many responses, ranging from resigned disappointment to reporting the incident to retributive violence. It depends on the nature of the person waked, in the same way as the initiating event of waking usually depends on the personality and characteristics of the waker.
If "wakeists" cease their misconduct there will be no "waked" to respond. Failing that, a broad range of responses in keeping with human nature,some socially acceptable, some irrational, can result.
If "wakeists" cease their misconduct there will be no "waked" to respond. Failing that, a broad range of responses in keeping with human nature,some socially acceptable, some irrational, can result.
OP
OP
Mule
Guru
Gee Dr. Bruce....how does that make you feel?
As for me, I just want to get on through this life, cause as little aggravation, pain and misery as possible. I like to leave people smiling as much as I can. My downfall is I have a low tolerance for dumb asses, arrogant ass holes and insensitive fools. I was hurt because of the aforementioned.
As for me, I just want to get on through this life, cause as little aggravation, pain and misery as possible. I like to leave people smiling as much as I can. My downfall is I have a low tolerance for dumb asses, arrogant ass holes and insensitive fools. I was hurt because of the aforementioned.
Capt.Bill11
Guru
Ink will come out of teak.
