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Old 11-20-2016, 09:36 AM   #41
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Sorry you were injured. I injured my back in a wake incident many years ago when I had just started boating.


I was seriously waked by three high speed military boats on the ICW in North Carolina. Few people care about others on the water and there's not much you can do about it anyway. People often claim that "You are responsible for your wake." but in the real world, that seldom happens. In your case, you would have to have witnesses and probably video tape and a clear identification of the offending boat.


I find it best to keep watch all the time and all around. I used to move over for fast approaching boats but I found that left me less room to maneuver so now I stand my ground in the channel and force them to go around me. Sometimes that slows them down, sometimes it doesn't but at least I have maneuvering room.


Each situation is different of course. I've been waked by commercial ships on the Savannah River in GA and they are just doing what they are allowed and supposed to do. The river is not that wide and they have a speed limit which they comply with.

I have lost cell phones and coffee cups to wakes. Some of these wakes were from large fast moving boats that passed me a thousand feet away. They just carry across the river.

The bottom line is, wakes are a part of boating. All we can do is prepare for them.
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Old 11-20-2016, 09:56 AM   #42
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............... And the paint gun idea is fun because the offending guy would not even discover he'd been hit until he got to his destination. And by then he'd probably realize (though that wouldn't be guaranteed!) it could have been any number of boats he waked that day...
I have thought of the paint gun but there are some problems with this idea,

First, if you point something that looks like a gun at another boater, he might point a real gun at you. What will you do now?

Second, if you point what looks like a gun at another boater, he/she might call the police on you.

Third, what the other boater does may not be illegal but what you are doing is. You are allowing the other guy to cause you to make bad decisions.

Best to leave the paint gun at home and not make things worse.
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Old 11-20-2016, 10:07 AM   #43
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You are not going to like this, but as captains it is our responsibility to keep a sharp lookout and be prepared to react to the normal things that happen at sea. ...............and it was MY inattention that led to my being suprised..........Now I pay better attention. When operating in close quarters I use my radar and back it down to 1/2 mile or less range to aid in my duty to keep a sharp lookout........The fact is that you are going to be waked again, but the good thing is that you have the ability to alter the outcome by being prepared, and fulfilling your duties to your passengers by keeping a sharp lookout.
I don't know if KSanders is a lawyer or not but I'll lay odds that if you sue, the offender's council will use the above arguement!
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Old 11-20-2016, 10:21 AM   #44
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A point not mentioned here so far-I do hope you filed a claim with your boat insurer. While health insurers might initially pay for the injuries, they will come back with the questions, "Was it an accident?" and "Was it on the job?" The moment the word, "accident", or the way of it happening comes into play, then so does subrogation. As to your guests and any injuries they suffered, their insurer may insist on them filing a claim against you.
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Old 11-20-2016, 10:44 AM   #45
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You are not going to like this, but as captains it is our responsibility to keep a sharp lookout and be prepared to react to the normal things that happen at sea. Wakes happen. Big wakes happen. When operating in close quarters, in uncontrolled areas Really big wakes happen.
This. One is obliged to keep a proper lookout. God invented eyes and radar for a reason. If you're "surprised" by a fast vessel approaching from the rear, especially on a long straight open stretch like that one, look in the mirror for an ID of the person at least 50% responsible for the consequences. Was the guy in the sporty a grade one AH? Why yes he was. All the more reason to be on the lookout for his kind. They boat among us.
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Old 11-20-2016, 11:08 AM   #46
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As you are open to suggestions, here are a few. None of these is placing blame, but they are all offered toward completing this situation and avoiding a next time.

As to this time:
-If you haven't filed an official report then do so with law enforcement. Insurers will want it, court would want it. Without such a report, your case is severely weakened.
-I mentioned in an above thread filing with your boat insurer. Give them the police report as well. If they want to pursue it against the other party, let them do so. For yourself, perhaps talk to an attorney, but I'd spend my primary effort on my own recovery, getting my injuries paid for by my insurance, and leaving legal to others.
-Don't start scouting for the other party unless your insurer or attorney or law enforcement asks you to do so. Nothing will come good of a confrontation. I doubt he even remembers you.

As to avoiding a next time:
-You have already mentioned better awareness of surroundings. I heard 360 degree view and other things bandied around, but I don't recall seeing radar mentioned. It's one other way you might have noticed the fast approaching boat.
-Assume every time you go out that being waked is a significant risk. If the other boat was going 30 knots, then it's wake was mild compared to what it could have been. I don't know the distance, but assume very close, as most boats going that speed at a reasonable distance wouldn't have significantly waked you.
-You must be prepared to take a wake that size or bigger from any direction. It may be a one in 1000 likelihood one will hit you but rest assured they will.
-Every person aboard and all items aboard need to be ready for an unexpected wake. Again, I don't recall if you mentioned whether you were sitting or standing, but sitting is safer for everyone than standing.
-Reevaluate the use of autopilot in an area like that. It's a tight area with quick response required, with straight lines not always the best choice, and requiring much attentiveness to the task at hand.
-I don't know how much you have done since ER, but ER doctors are lousy at things like this, as their expertise is life and death, so please see the best back and or pain specialists you can. Perhaps you already have.
-I'm not sure if your last second spin of the wheel to port helped or hurt. Rethink that and if perhaps holding on at that late point would have been more helpful. The spin might have increased the likelihood of the fall.
-The table went flying. I don't know if you mean a table or the things on it, but if a table, don't have a table up that will go flying in such a situation. Find a better way to secure it or stow it.

I think we were helped by boating previously on an over-crowded and often very rough lake, from the effect of many wakes from many directions. On a summer weekend or holiday, there were boats on all sides, headed in all directions. There wasn't one 30 knot boat to worry about but at any given time probably at least 4 or 5 boats close enough that you would ultimately get tossed by their wake. Turning into them all properly was impossible because if you were into one, another one was coming from your side. We didn't stand or allow standing. We didn't do what many small boat owners do and sit on the back of the seat. We didn't allow anyone to ride on the sunpad.

On the coast, I've been waked by boats deciding to take off to plane while right beside me, boats just cruising along at the worst possible speed below plane, tour boats oblivious to the world, ferries ignoring everything else, and CG boats not paying attention.

Your first words were "I got hit again." Well, if you continue boating, you will get hit again after this. All you can do to protect yourself is be better prepared. Wakes are part of the reality of boating. I'm not saying whether excessive or too close or too fast or too slow or if they should be, but simply they are. They lead to very painful injuries. If two of you fell, it could have led to worse had your heads hit the wrong spots. It can be scary. It can take away the pleasure of boating. On Sunday afternoons we often moved at a snails pace on the lake and just bounced from all the wakes and that's as much as we love speed. If we saw a chance to get away from the others we'd use speed. At 50 knots we had virtually no wake ourselves.

I'm so sorry for your injury and don't want any of this to be seen as not being sympathetic to them. Just take care of yourself now and then take any measures you can to keep it from happening again, measures under your control, since you can't control the actions of others.
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Old 11-20-2016, 11:25 AM   #47
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"Captain" Bill. Actually it is. Not excusing it, but as I said, if you are not in a restricted zone it happens a lot in my area. Take a look at a chart of SD harbor. Boats run full speed through the narrow parts and that includes naval, USCG, and harbor patrol vessels. Bottom line, you need to be prepared for it.
Sorry, like I said, it's not everywhere.

In some cases it's ignorant and dangerous behavoir.
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:46 PM   #48
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I really despise boaters that do a close pass with a large wake. Frankly, they are ********. Of course we need to be prepared for it and keep a good watch, the OP mentioned it himself.

The idea that I like the best is the video camera. As they get cheaper and more convenient, it would be easy to record a pass and then do with it what may be appropriate.
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:29 PM   #49
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If the channel is narrow, I never travel a straight line any more as long as I'm not conflicting with oncoming traffic. I have always had displacement boats and I have been waked too many times. Many times now the morons have had to change course or slow to pass me. Worst result has been rude remarks on the radio. Tough darts.

Seems to help a bit.

Get better soon!
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Old 11-20-2016, 03:34 PM   #50
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Sorry, like I said, it's not everywhere.

In some cases it's ignorant and dangerous behavoir.
No one wants to see anyone get hurt, and it's common sense that a close pass, big wake on another vessel by a skipper is bad judgement.

I am still confused. Are you saying in Florida where you boat, that all vessels travel at wake speed, 5 knots or less, in unrestricted speed channels?
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Old 11-20-2016, 04:44 PM   #51
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No one wants to see anyone get hurt, and it's common sense that a close pass, big wake on another vessel by a skipper is bad judgement.
That`s it in a nutshell. The high speed high wake close passer has plenty of options, change course, reduce speed etc.
One reason we moved the boat off Sydney Harbour was traffic and wakes. Green water over the transom from a 50ft ButtDragger Mk 3 cruiser/speedboat while rounding George`s Head exiting Middle Harbour was about the last straw.
There are some seriously careless,even malicious, boaters out there. Their behavior is likely a mirror of how they behave in life, don`t expect any courtesy or contrition if you find the culprit.
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Old 11-21-2016, 08:47 AM   #52
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" Next time one of these drivers throws a wake like that I can only come up with this. Warn every body in his path he is coming on 16. Encourage them to call 911 on cell phones and using channel 16 the CG and others (we had 4 phones on our boat and 5 miles up 2 more in our party in another boat). In other words throw a lot of calls into 911 to red flag law enforcement. There is usually some type of patrol on the intercoastal. "


A few years back in our sailboat, we were returning to port and in a very narrow spot at entrance to Penetang. harbor, we were passed by a 40 + foot Carver driven by a brain dead idiot at high speed and badly trimmed. We rocked 45 deg. a few times, the wife got tossed out of the cockpit against the lifelines and we lost everything down below. The S.O.B. even gave me a wave as he went about 20' on my port side. I knew where he was from ( Beacon Bay Marina ) I called the OPP and visited the marina in hope of finding the S.O.B. but it was a dead ender ...... Sadly, they breathe God's air and live among us .... My sympathies ...... FB
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:36 AM   #53
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No one wants to see anyone get hurt, and it's common sense that a close pass, big wake on another vessel by a skipper is bad judgement.

I am still confused. Are you saying in Florida where you boat, that all vessels travel at wake speed, 5 knots or less, in unrestricted speed channels?
I think we are I agreement.

But in narrow confined channels like much of the ICW, even in unrestricted speed zones, reasonable passing speeds and wake sizes should be the norm based on common courtesy and safety.

Even though sadly they are not at times.
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:35 PM   #54
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A mirror is a help, if someone is approaching fast you can contact him or signal to slow down, in a channel if that doesn't work block him. They are available in automotive stores or depts. The one pictured below is mounted on a block of wood so it can be moved to suit who ever is driving the boat.
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:09 AM   #55
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Glad to hear that you're doing better, Mule!
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:40 AM   #56
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Glad to hear that you're doing better, Mule!
Thanks, and thanks to all of you for your concern and good wishes. Slep all night in the bed for first time in 15 days. But who is counting
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:29 PM   #57
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Hey KSanders...check this out...there is liability for wake damage

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesFAQ#0.3_10

10. What are the regulations concerning wake effects, wake damage, and responsibility?
Regarding one's wake, vessels over 1600 Gross Tons (GT) are specifically required by Title 33 CFR 164.11 to set the vessel's speed with consideration for...the damage that might be caused by the vessel's wake. Further, there may be State or local laws which specifically address "wake" for the waters in question.

While vessels under 1600 GT are not specifically required to manage their speed in regards to wake, they are still required to operate in a prudent matter which does not endanger life, limb, or property (46 USC 2302). Nor do the Navigation Rules exonerate any vessel from the consequences of neglect (Rule 2), which, among other things, could be unsafe speeds (Rule 6), improper lookout (Rule 5), or completely ignoring your responsibilities as prescribed by the Navigation Rules.

As to whether or not a particular vessel is responsible for the damage it creates is a question of law and fact that is best left to the Courts. For more information, contact your local Marine Patrol or State Boating Law Administrator.

The Rules of the Road include the actions to take when encountering another vessel on the water . Some of the most common situations you may encounter are: overtaking, meeting head-on, and crossing the bow of another vessel . In each case, the boat designated as the “give-way” vessel is required to yield to the other boat, while the boat designated as the “stand-on” vessel should maintain its course and speed .



Here is the pertinent section of CFR:

Captains failing to follow best practices and maritime rules and procedures can be held liable for damages under 46 U.S. Code § 2302 — penalties for negligent operations and interfering with safe operation which states:
a) A person operating a vessel in a negligent manner or interfering with the safe operation of a vessel, so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of a person is liable to the United States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $5,000 in the case of a recreational vessel, or $25,000 in the case of any other vessel.
(b) A person operating a vessel in a grossly negligent manner that endangers the life, limb, or property of a person commits a class A misdemeanor.
(c) An individual who is under the influence of alcohol, or a dangerous drug in violation of a law of the United States when operating a vessel, as determined under standards prescribed by the Secretary by regulation—
(1) is liable to the United States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $5,000; or
(2) commits a class A misdemeanor.



State laws would probably offer an easier path to a civil suit. Here is an excerpt from NJ law:
§ 13:82-1.7 Speed
(a) No person shall operate a vessel in a manner where the speed and/or wake of the vessel may cause danger or injury to life or limb or damage to property.
(b) All vessels shall reduce speed to slow speed/no wake when passing

NEW JERSEY ADMINISTRATIVE CODE
Copyright (c) 2010 by the New Jersey Office of Administrative Law
*** THIS FILE INCLUDES ALL REGULATIONS ADOPTED AND PUBLISHED THROUGH THE *** *** NEW JERSEY REGISTER, VOL. 42, NO. 7, APRIL 5, 2010 ***
TITLE 13. LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY
CHAPTER 82. BOATING REGULATIONS
CHAPTER EXPIRATION DATE:
Chapter 82, Boating Regulations, expires on January 4, 2015.

Bottom line...as a master, you are repsonsible for the wake your vessel makes, and the damage that ensues because you could have avoided the situation by slowing down or giving a wider berth. Specifically it is encumbant on the operator to avoid causing damage, casualty or a situation that endangers others.
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Old 11-22-2016, 12:52 PM   #58
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Yeah...bring it to court and roll the dice.

A good expert witness can twist no wake a bunch of different ways...in court...it can go either way.

Mule....wracked my back 2 years ago....had a heat mattress pad that helped quite a bit and was nice on chilly nights. Feel as good as new these days.
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:26 PM   #59
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Hey KSanders...check this out...there is liability for wake damage

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesFAQ#0.3_10

10. What are the regulations concerning wake effects, wake damage, and responsibility?
Regarding one's wake, vessels over 1600 Gross Tons (GT) are specifically required by Title 33 CFR 164.11 to set the vessel's speed with consideration for...the damage that might be caused by the vessel's wake. Further, there may be State or local laws which specifically address "wake" for the waters in question.

While vessels under 1600 GT are not specifically required to manage their speed in regards to wake, they are still required to operate in a prudent matter which does not endanger life, limb, or property (46 USC 2302). Nor do the Navigation Rules exonerate any vessel from the consequences of neglect (Rule 2), which, among other things, could be unsafe speeds (Rule 6), improper lookout (Rule 5), or completely ignoring your responsibilities as prescribed by the Navigation Rules.

As to whether or not a particular vessel is responsible for the damage it creates is a question of law and fact that is best left to the Courts. For more information, contact your local Marine Patrol or State Boating Law Administrator.

The Rules of the Road include the actions to take when encountering another vessel on the water . Some of the most common situations you may encounter are: overtaking, meeting head-on, and crossing the bow of another vessel . In each case, the boat designated as the “give-way” vessel is required to yield to the other boat, while the boat designated as the “stand-on” vessel should maintain its course and speed .



Here is the pertinent section of CFR:

Captains failing to follow best practices and maritime rules and procedures can be held liable for damages under 46 U.S. Code § 2302 — penalties for negligent operations and interfering with safe operation which states:
a) A person operating a vessel in a negligent manner or interfering with the safe operation of a vessel, so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of a person is liable to the United States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $5,000 in the case of a recreational vessel, or $25,000 in the case of any other vessel.
(b) A person operating a vessel in a grossly negligent manner that endangers the life, limb, or property of a person commits a class A misdemeanor.
(c) An individual who is under the influence of alcohol, or a dangerous drug in violation of a law of the United States when operating a vessel, as determined under standards prescribed by the Secretary by regulation—
(1) is liable to the United States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $5,000; or
(2) commits a class A misdemeanor.



State laws would probably offer an easier path to a civil suit. Here is an excerpt from NJ law:
§ 13:82-1.7 Speed
(a) No person shall operate a vessel in a manner where the speed and/or wake of the vessel may cause danger or injury to life or limb or damage to property.
(b) All vessels shall reduce speed to slow speed/no wake when passing

NEW JERSEY ADMINISTRATIVE CODE
Copyright (c) 2010 by the New Jersey Office of Administrative Law
*** THIS FILE INCLUDES ALL REGULATIONS ADOPTED AND PUBLISHED THROUGH THE *** *** NEW JERSEY REGISTER, VOL. 42, NO. 7, APRIL 5, 2010 ***
TITLE 13. LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY
CHAPTER 82. BOATING REGULATIONS
CHAPTER EXPIRATION DATE:
Chapter 82, Boating Regulations, expires on January 4, 2015.

Bottom line...as a master, you are repsonsible for the wake your vessel makes, and the damage that ensues because you could have avoided the situation by slowing down or giving a wider berth. Specifically it is encumbant on the operator to avoid causing damage, casualty or a situation that endangers others.
Brett

You read that, and so have I many many times.

It specifically says boats over 1600 tons.

But... I know you are just pulling my anchor chain.

BTW, have you been to your boat lately??? Someone keeps going onto my boat and leaving the transom door open. I just changed the cameras to email a photo of the intruder. I heard from my boat watch by that there s some shifty stuff going on in Seward this winter.
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:36 PM   #60
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Brett

You read that, and so have I many many times.

It specifically says boats over 1600 tons.
However the part that he posted does refer to smaller boats.
Quote:
While vessels under 1600 GT are not specifically required to manage their speed in regards to wake, they are still required to operate in a prudent matter which does not endanger life, limb, or property (46 USC 2302). Nor do the Navigation Rules exonerate any vessel from the consequences of neglect (Rule 2), which, among other things, could be unsafe speeds (Rule 6), improper lookout (Rule 5), or completely ignoring your responsibilities as prescribed by the Navigation Rules.
ie, if you are negligent in regards to your wake that can be a violation. WA state law also makes the same point.
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