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Old 12-06-2017, 08:19 PM   #41
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How much flotation is provided by any PFD not worn? Rediculous that inflatables are not counted if not worn but non-inflatables are.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:01 PM   #42
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I had always assumed that a regular PFD could be just held onto and would provide bouyancy if you grabbed it when you were in the water, while an inflatable is not actively bouyant until its ripcord is pulled, which might be hard to do in a high stress situation.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:09 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Benthic2 View Post
I had always assumed that a regular PFD could be just held onto and would provide bouyancy if you grabbed it when you were in the water, while an inflatable is not actively bouyant until its ripcord is pulled, which might be hard to do in a high stress situation.
A few seconds difference in it being of use and that could be critical.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:36 PM   #44
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Donít always require deployment

My harnesses deploy automatically when dunked in water. They do not require me to pull a handle or otherwise make it decision to deploy.

I have to say, that this kind of thing makes my teeth hurt. I do not think it is anyoneís business if I decide to kill myself. Whether I decide to wear a life jacket or not is simply no one elseís business. It is my life to do with as I see fit and no one elseís.

I am currently in the Bahamas and do not wear a life jacket when in my 12 foot dinghy. Yes I could fall out. The dinghy could come back around and hit me in the head. Life is full of risk and there are no guarantees. Perhaps we need police on every street corner watching every pedestrian so they donít cross the street when it is unsafe. Where do we draw the line?

Should I really be fined for not wearing a seatbelt? Seems a little stupid to me. My fine will come when I have an accident and Iím not wearing one. I donít need the mommy police Running around trying to enforce a law to make me safe. I think seatbelts are a great thing and would not drive a car without everyone on. I also think that with my swimming ability wearing a life jacket and a dinging in a harbor is a little stupid. I am capable of making this decision.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:59 PM   #45
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My harnesses deploy automatically when dunked in water. They do not require me to pull a handle or otherwise make it decision to deploy.

I have to say, that this kind of thing makes my teeth hurt. I do not think it is anyoneís business if I decide to kill myself. Whether I decide to wear a life jacket or not is simply no one elseís business. It is my life to do with as I see fit and no one elseís.

I am currently in the Bahamas and do not wear a life jacket when in my 12 foot dinghy. Yes I could fall out. The dinghy could come back around and hit me in the head. Life is full of risk and there are no guarantees. Perhaps we need police on every street corner watching every pedestrian so they donít cross the street when it is unsafe. Where do we draw the line?

Should I really be fined for not wearing a seatbelt? Seems a little stupid to me. My fine will come when I have an accident and Iím not wearing one. I donít need the mommy police Running around trying to enforce a law to make me safe. I think seatbelts are a great thing and would not drive a car without everyone on. I also think that with my swimming ability wearing a life jacket and a dinging in a harbor is a little stupid. I am capable of making this decision.
So, I'm assuming you don't carry life insurance and have no family depending on you for us to worry about? And your friends won't miss you?

We have laws to keep people safe because all of society ends up paying for deaths. It starts with life insurance premiums. It includes both private and government programs to assist survivors both financially and mentally.

Do you know how much we, society, end up paying on motorcyclists who choose not to wear helmets? Sometimes the hospital bills exceed a million dollars. Families suffer. Other drivers have their lives damaged severely by being in a fatal accident even if not their fault. Only one good thing comes out of it and that is organs for transplant if the families decide to pull the plugs and donate.

There is both a financial and emotional cost to society. Protecting people from themselves is part of it.

Yes, you should be fined for not wearing a seatbelt. That risk you're taking can cost every other car owner as the cost of a fatal accident. We're all tied together in many ways. I'm glad others in society have seen the wisdom that has protected me from myself and my possible stupidity. Without the seat belt laws, I might never have. Without stronger auto doors, we'd all be in greater danger. If we were allowed to build cars a couple of thousand dollars cheaper but unsafe, they'd sell and we'd all be hurt by it.

A Policeman on every corner to protect pedestrians? Not in most places. However, in Vegas they are stationed just for that purpose because Vegas had the highest rate of jaywalker deaths of any city in the country by far. People get distracted by all the lights and entertainment and so many areas to walk around, the street just sort of catches them asleep. I've seen it and I've seen a policeman grab a woman about to cross without looking or thinking.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:05 PM   #46
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Sure....if you want to kill yourself, go ahead...but what if you don't quite succeed and end up in an ICU for months on end and a multi-million dollar hospital bill ? Society has to pay for that, so society gets to do what it can to prevent that from happening....ie: require seatbelts, helmets, life jackets, smoke detectors, trigger locks, electric/building codes, etc. Everyone will have a different opinion as to how far to the left or right on the continuum is justifiable but that's the theory anyway.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:07 PM   #47
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I should have waited a second....B&B said it much more eloquently than I did.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:37 PM   #48
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I should have waited a second....B&B said it much more eloquently than I did.
I thought you said it well.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:47 AM   #49
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Something I learnt from a sailor with over 40 Sydney-Hobart races to his credit. An inflatable PFD must be the top garment, there should be no clothing, like a jacket over it, so it can inflate unrestrained. Otherwise part of the inflation is against the body and constricting. My sailor friend took a knife and "stabbed" through the clothing to stop the inflation compressing the body.
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:27 AM   #50
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You missed the point

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So, I'm assuming you don't carry life insurance and have no family depending on you for us to worry about? And your friends won't miss you?

We have laws to keep people safe because all of society ends up paying for deaths. It starts with life insurance premiums. It includes both private and government programs to assist survivors both financially and mentally.

Do you know how much we, society, end up paying on motorcyclists who choose not to wear helmets? Sometimes the hospital bills exceed a million dollars. Families suffer. Other drivers have their lives damaged severely by being in a fatal accident even if not their fault. Only one good thing comes out of it and that is organs for transplant if the families decide to pull the plugs and donate.

There is both a financial and emotional cost to society. Protecting people from themselves is part of it.

Yes, you should be fined for not wearing a seatbelt. That risk you're taking can cost every other car owner as the cost of a fatal accident. We're all tied together in many ways. I'm glad others in society have seen the wisdom that has protected me from myself and my possible stupidity. Without the seat belt laws, I might never have. Without stronger auto doors, we'd all be in greater danger. If we were allowed to build cars a couple of thousand dollars cheaper but unsafe, they'd sell and we'd all be hurt by it.

A Policeman on every corner to protect pedestrians? Not in most places. However, in Vegas they are stationed just for that purpose because Vegas had the highest rate of jaywalker deaths of any city in the country by far. People get distracted by all the lights and entertainment and so many areas to walk around, the street just sort of catches them asleep. I've seen it and I've seen a policeman grab a woman about to cross without looking or thinking.
I have life insurance because I chose to buy it. It is not compulsory. If we are going to mandate safety because of the potential cost to society there are a lot more low hanging fruit than life jackets. The list could be quite long starting with cigarettes, alcohol, sugary foods, all of which kill magnitudes more people than failure to wear life jackets. And. Letís not even think about guns?

The CDC says that between 2005 and 2014, 332 people per year are killed in boating related accidents. It would be interesting to parse the data and understand how many died because they were not wearing life jackets.

THE ONLY reason that a mandatory life jacket law would probably pass is because the number of people who are impacted by the law is so small. 98 percent of society could care less about boating safety.

So letís not get wrapped up in the safety flag and talk about the cost to society. No one writing legislation cares about this except for the agencies charged with writing regulations. Somewhere, improving boater safety will appear on some bureaucrats resume.

Have you ever asked yourself about driving speed limits? Why not 45 mph? Why do some states have 75 mph and others 65? Who is to say what speed is safe enough?

So letís see, in my 12 foot rib I must carry life jackets for every passenger, a throwable flotation device, and carry a sound making device, I donít think a whistle counts. Oh, and donít forget a white stern light, which is more hindrance than help as it destroys my night vision. All this is mandated because of the cost to society.

I could not imagine riding a motorcycle without a helmet. But I think it should be my choice.

That Las Vegas chooses to keep people from getting run over is more about the number of drunks and wanting to ensure that the casinos get very dollar from the tourists instead of the hospitals.

I hope all who wave the safety flags are wearing seat belts while astride their high horses.
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Old 12-07-2017, 08:45 AM   #51
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Been a highly trained, senior safety officer.

Some safety rules are outstanding, some just feel goodies to shut some wanker or group up.

Not all rules should apply all the time either.

Like the guy who wears a safety harness on deck versus a person who does not. The risk management in either case is not perfect, but one greatly offsets the other. And this is where safety legislation by committee falls flat on its often unreasonable face.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:58 AM   #52
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Something I learnt from a sailor with over 40 Sydney-Hobart races to his credit. An inflatable PFD must be the top garment, there should be no clothing, like a jacket over it, so it can inflate unrestrained. Otherwise part of the inflation is against the body and constricting. My sailor friend took a knife and "stabbed" through the clothing to stop the inflation compressing the body.
Reading the directions would have avoided this. It's almost common sense if you think about it.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:22 AM   #53
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Reading the directions would have avoided this. It's almost common sense if you think about it.
Its actually more common than one would think.

Some feel they are so comfortable, they almost forget they are wearing them and when the afternoon wind pipes up, a foulie or windbreaker gets put on without thought.

Have seen it done.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:20 AM   #54
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With the auto inflation PFDs, I can accept the necessity of wearing it.
Even though there is a law, in FL, requiring children up to a certain age to wear a PFD of a certain size, I see many children not wearing a PFD. What is worse are the children forward on deck without a PFD while underway.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:00 PM   #55
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It is federal law that 13 and under ....wear all the time except in a cabin...unless a state has a law requiring.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:21 PM   #56
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It is federal law that 13 and under ....wear all the time except in a cabin...unless a state has a law requiring.
Thanks for the update.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:48 PM   #57
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Wow its only three pages so far, I glanced at this thread yesterday and thought now thats a topic that might carry on for 6 or 7 pages at least
I can't resist: This is an age old debate where certainly a parallel can be drawn not only to seatbelts but also motorcycle helmets.

Yes i've heard the argument that all our costs go up when people choose less safe alternatives and injure themselves. Plus i've acquired a motorcycle license in both Washington state and Texas. Currently in Texas riders are not required to wear a helmet and I have to say I support the law. To be clear; i think it is smart to wear a helmet but I think if a guy wants to feel the wind in his hair cruising his harley down a country road, the state shouldn't force him to break the law to do it.

As for the Aussie law: agreed we pretty much meet this PFD requirement as daily practice, but it would be in the back of your mind and slightly more irritating if when cruising you had the added stress of keeping that law in mind.... rather than what we do now treating it as 2nd nature.

Sorry but it sure seems like our "legislators" always have an insatiable desire for more rules and you have to wonder how far they will go with it....

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:50 PM   #58
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I am told, in the medical community, those who ride a motor cycle without a helmet are known as "donors".

Hmmm wasn't Ben Franklin the author of "Common Sense"?
I remember when a motor cycle drivers wore full leather to prevent road rash.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:42 PM   #59
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Oddly enough

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Wow its only three pages so far, I glanced at this thread yesterday and thought now thats a topic that might carry on for 6 or 7 pages at least
I can't resist: This is an age old debate where certainly a parallel can be drawn not only to seatbelts but also motorcycle helmets.

Yes i've heard the argument that all our costs go up when people choose less safe alternatives and injure themselves. Plus i've acquired a motorcycle license in both Washington state and Texas. Currently in Texas riders are not required to wear a helmet and I have to say I support the law. To be clear; i think it is smart to wear a helmet but I think if a guy wants to feel the wind in his hair cruising his harley down a country road, the state shouldn't force him to break the law to do it.

As for the Aussie law: agreed we pretty much meet this PFD requirement as daily practice, but it would be in the back of your mind and slightly more irritating if when cruising you had the added stress of keeping that law in mind.... rather than what we do now treating it as 2nd nature.

Sorry but it sure seems like our "legislators" always have an insatiable desire for more rules and you have to wonder how far they will go with it....

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Ben Franklin
Your legislatures and Congress only make some of the rules. Many many others are made by bureaucrats and executive fiat.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:56 PM   #60
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And one more thing

According to the law we are given a pass as long as we have lifejackets in the boat. We donít even have to wear them. I wonder how many lives have been lost because passengers on boats did not wear the lifejackets but assumed they might be able to hang onto them if they ever went into the water. Of course, this would be a small number given that only a few more than 300 a year ever die in boating accidents. and of that number we have no idea how many died because they were not wearing lifejackets.

I suspect that were everyone required to actually wear a jacket we would hear a much loader protest against it. Bureaucratic rule makers are not answerable to anyone.
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