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Old 12-04-2017, 06:51 PM   #21
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Bruce -
It sounds as if SA is fairly similar to NSW now. I'm just wondering what is considered an "open area" or "open deck" on a vessel. That seems somewhat open for debate.

Do lifelines and/or a stainless tube bow rail make it ok without a PFD?
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Old 12-04-2017, 06:54 PM   #22
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I see the requirements as a minimum. Eg,my partner usually wears one while docking.
As to seat belts, I had a car with seat belts, an imported Renault, before seat belts were mandated. I think they are a great idea. They go hand in hand with laminated windscreens. Unrestrained you may be thrown forward,your head will punch a hole in the windscreen,your shoulders prevent further progress, the windscreen will cut your throat.
I recall the first person I knew with air bags. Her father bought her a Chrysler Lebaron. She liked it but the airbags never really registered with her. One afternoon she was run into by a drunk driver. The car was totaled. She walked away with minimal injuries. Everyone was amazed. Just like the commercials they were running. She immediately replaced it with another Lebaron and said she'd never own another car without airbags. The photo and story made the paper and television and definitely made a huge impression on a lot of people.

You look overall at the safety of cars today vs even when I was young and even more striking for those of you who are older. All government induced with a combination of requirements and published ratings.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:02 PM   #23
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G'day, Bruce!

Sorry...I always wanted to say that to an Aussie named Bruce! Yes, I'm a Monty Python geek! .
Thanks! Most "Bruces" are of "a certain age", maybe we MP fans are too. The name has Scottish origins and was not nearly as common as MP seemed to think.We could call you Bruce too....to avoid confusion.
For some reason the philosophers drinking song has come to mind: "Old Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,...Socrates himself was permanently pissed". And now I`m thinking of the philosophers game show, with Karl Marx and others competing for a 3 piece lounge suite.
It needs to stop. Sorry. Back to PFDs.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:12 PM   #24
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What about..... cruise ships?

And dont tell me how safe those vessels are.....statistically difficult to show my boat is any more dangerous or less so.

.
really !?!?!

I know your particular boat is safe because you have a ton of training and experience....but if you compare the average mid size trawler/cabin cruiser with a cruise ship, its not even close. Cruise ships run 24/7/365 with thousands of passengers....I can't even venture to guess but the passenger miles travelled is in the Billions.....and deaths are exceedingly rare. Even with a major disaster like the Costa Concordia, less than 3 dozen people died. Over 700 recreational boaters died in 2016 alone.

I'm not saying that you are unsafe or reckless...but privately owned boats controlled by average citizens, are no where near as safe as a cruise ship.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:18 PM   #25
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Bruce -
It sounds as if SA is fairly similar to NSW now. I'm just wondering what is considered an "open area" or "open deck" on a vessel. That seems somewhat open for debate.
Do lifelines and/or a stainless tube bow rail make it ok without a PFD?
It is similar, which is good, safety should not change at State boundaries.I could not find a definition of "open". The rules seem to be part of a table, which uses the word "open". I doubt fencing would change anything, my guess is it means "not in an enclosed cabin" or something like that, somewhere you cannot end up in the water. You could easily get washed over rails or lifelines, especially in a well heeled boat.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:22 PM   #26
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I always wear a PFD when single-handed or in the dinghy, and when the situation is scary (which hasn't happened yet because of tall/strong railings and operating in the pilothouse).
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:39 PM   #27
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On the other hand, if you slowly step off the curb in China to cross a busy 8-lane road, the traffic flow will simply divide to allow you to cross.
From Wiki...

"Under the Road Traffic Safety*Law*of the People's Republic of*China, when accidents occur between pedestrians or non-motorised vehicles and motor vehicles, except for the case where the pedestrian or the non-motorised vehicle deliberately causes the incident, the motorist must always bear responsibility."

Not sure I'd call that communal social concern.

That's why you see people jumping out in front of slow moving cars in China on dashcam videos. Payday!

I'm not sure I believe that everyone has an inherent understanding of the dangers of electricity either. I'm OK with NEMA boxes.

As far as lifejackets go, rules are good, as they provide a standard and an expectation to follow.

Heavy handed enforcement of the rule I am not fond of. Using the enforcement of the rule as a revenue stream is even worse.

If boaters had actual license, the ability to take an opportunity to teach and inform, and let off with a warning makes sense. Further infractions could be met with fines.

27 years ago, I was riding along with police reservist friend of mine in Poulsbo, WA. He pulled a guy over for not having a car seat for his toddler daughter. Second time that week. His excuse was he couldn't afford one. He pulled out his wallet (and some of my money too) and gave him $100. Told him to go buy one and pay him back if and when he got the cash. Or you can get a ticket.

The guy did buy one, and paid him back within the week, and was friendly (and law abiding) to him for years after. I think all four of us involved learned something that day.

I know there are free loaner life jackets at some of the local boat launches now.

I guess if we as a society made it easier for people to understand and do the right thing, maybe more would.

I think it goes back to educating and licencing boaters.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:42 PM   #28
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I try to drive my car as safe as possible and wear my seat belt, am careful going down the stairs at my house, and I pay attention to other cars while walking through a parking lot or crossing the street. Life has inherent risks. Not saying wearing a PFD is a bad idea, but it's the other stuff that is much more likely to get us in the long run.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:47 PM   #29
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It is similar, which is good, safety should not change at State boundaries.I could not find a definition of "open". The rules seem to be part of a table, which uses the word "open". I doubt fencing would change anything, my guess is it means "not in an enclosed cabin" or something like that, somewhere you cannot end up in the water. You could easily get washed over rails or lifelines, especially in a well heeled boat.
Yes, I expect that the bow would be considered an open area on almost any boat.

I expect the cockpit would not be considered "open", although I have been hit by a breaking wave in the cockpit. It had enough force to knock me overboard had I not had a firm grip on a handrail.

It's tough to legislate to cover every possibility. There have been many times when I don't feel a PFD is enough protection. I use a harness and lanyard to ensure I am at an acceptable level of safety. There has been one or two occasions when even that is not enough to go on deck.
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Old 12-04-2017, 07:53 PM   #30
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On a motorboat, gratefulness is not having to go on deck to
reef/take-down sails when weather gets serious.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:21 PM   #31
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really !?!?!

I know your particular boat is safe because you have a ton of training and experience....but if you compare the average mid size trawler/cabin cruiser with a cruise ship, its not even close. Cruise ships run 24/7/365 with thousands of passengers....I can't even venture to guess but the passenger miles travelled is in the Billions.....and deaths are exceedingly rare. Even with a major disaster like the Costa Concordia, less than 3 dozen people died. Over 700 recreational boaters died in 2016 alone.

I'm not saying that you are unsafe or reckless...but privately owned boats controlled by average citizens, are no where near as safe as a cruise ship.
So I should be forced to abide because of the sins of others?

And no, there is a chance of disaster on any boat or ship, so all should comply. Safety is safety.

There are seatbelts in small AND large airplanes including lifejackets on airliners....how safe are they?

Sorry, but mandating lifejackets be worn at all times on other than small craft is just too intrusive...or make it mandatory for all vessels to show just how silly it really is.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:29 PM   #32
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The new rules mentioned by AusCan are pretty much what we do already so I have no quarrel with them. In fact for some guests legal rules help compliance.

Here in Canada we have a couple of rules that I'll mention that may or may not make sense.

1) Whereas there must be enough life jackets on board for all persons on board, inflatable lifejackets only count if they are actually being worn. (I.e., if the Coast Guard stops you for an inspection, you'd better be wearing that inflatable if that's all you've got.)

2) There are no approved lifejackets for children under 20 pounds.
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Old 12-04-2017, 08:51 PM   #33
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I don't think anyone is suggesting PFD's be required all the time.

The OP said all the time in very small boats, then just in certain situations on larger boats.

I was taking exception to your comment that you are as safe on your boat as on a cruise ship.
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:48 PM   #34
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....Here in Canada we have a couple of rules that I'll mention that may or may not make sense.

1) Whereas there must be enough life jackets on board for all persons on board, inflatable lifejackets only count if they are actually being worn. (I.e., if the Coast Guard stops you for an inspection, you'd better be wearing that inflatable if that's all you've got.)

2) There are no approved lifejackets for children under 20 pounds.
There was a suggestion inflatables only counted as PFDs if inflated, otherwise they were not a PFD. I corresponded with (Roads &) Maritime, they ruled inflatables need not be inflated to comply.
I guess the CG rationale is something other than putting on the inflatable has to be done before it functions as a PFD, so you`d better be wearing it.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:28 AM   #35
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I don't think anyone is suggesting PFD's be required all the time.

The OP said all the time in very small boats, then just in certain situations on larger boats.

I was taking exception to your comment that you are as safe on your boat as on a cruise ship.
It is exactly what a lot of people want including some in the USCG.

And we already have a prorated set of situations where they are required.

So the discussion of more regulation in the US would have to again be very specific and stay away from mandatory all the time on all smaller vessels to get support from me.

Better they madate other safety gear in more situations.....such as anchors and vhfs and plbs.....etc, etc..... that as a former rescue guy canvwrap my head around.

But then, I find that there are plenty of situations where those items are not really needed so without careful wording, it too can be way overreaching by government safty goobers.
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:24 AM   #36
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There was a suggestion inflatables only counted as PFDs if inflated, otherwise they were not a PFD. I corresponded with (Roads &) Maritime, they ruled inflatables need not be inflated to comply.
I guess the CG rationale is something other than putting on the inflatable has to be done before it functions as a PFD, so you`d better be wearing it.
A couple years ago I decided to get inflatables for my wife and me. Researching different brands, I found some that were acceptable as PFDs when not worn and others that were not. I can't explain why that is but I checked with the manufacturer and they were approved so those are the ones I bought.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:06 AM   #37
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The new rules described seem very realistic and practical. I know that some of our more libertarian leaning folks get upset by any rule that restrict their behavior, but those PFD rules seem sensible and relatively non-intrusive.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:27 AM   #38
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A couple years ago I decided to get inflatables for my wife and me. Researching different brands, I found some that were acceptable as PFDs when not worn and others that were not. I can't explain why that is but I checked with the manufacturer and they were approved so those are the ones I bought.
The ones that are acceptable when not worn have some inherent bouancy built in. They are a sort of hybrid regular PFD and inflatable. They are bulkier than straight inflatables.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:23 PM   #39
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The ones that are acceptable when not worn have some inherent bouancy built in. They are a sort of hybrid regular PFD and inflatable. They are bulkier than straight inflatables.
They look and feel like "straight inflatables". The Coast Guard Auxiliary folks who inspect my boat each spring have inspected them but never said they don't count. If I knew the brand I would post it but they are on the boat and I am not.

I also have the traditional bulky PFDs on my boat but not quite "readily accessible". If I have guests on board I get them out to where they are "readily accessible.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:07 PM   #40
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They look and feel like "straight inflatables". The Coast Guard Auxiliary folks who inspect my boat each spring have inspected them but never said they don't count. If I knew the brand I would post it but they are on the boat and I am not.

I also have the traditional bulky PFDs on my boat but not quite "readily accessible". If I have guests on board I get them out to where they are "readily accessible.
If the hybrid jackets are as comfortable as the straight inflatable, go for it. They probably have two ratings, Type V and Type III. The Type III means it has about 15 pounds buoyancy when not inflated. That's a good thing to my way of thinking.
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