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Old 06-03-2019, 05:33 PM   #1
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Delivery from Baltimore to N Shore LI- lessons learned

I just got back from helping a TF member deliver his new (to him) boat from Baltimore to the N Shore of Long Island. It was a relatively easy trip and we made it in two days of hard 10 hour runs.

The boat was fully surveyed- both hull and engine before purchase. The boat was repowered from gassers to diesels less than ten years ago and I must say that the twin Cummins 370s and NL genset installation was first class. We had full instrumentation for those engines at the helm including EGT, boost pressure and Flowscans. The new owner will get good service from those engines and the PO dropped somewhere near $100K on the repower job but sold the boat for the price of gassers. Such is the case for big money put into an old boat.

The boat, a 1987 Searay 410 aft cabin MY may turn out not to be the best for this new large cruiser owner. The side decks are at least 5' above the water line so it takes a stair case on dock to board from that location or clamber up a hanging ladder. You can also board from the swim platform and then climb up a ladder to the aft sun deck which is about 6' above the waterline. Not going to be easy to manage a dinghy or general boarding with that layout.

But it does have a nice layout inside. With no helm below the space provides a big salon, a galley and dinette below, an aft queen berth and two forward single berths. Here is the listing: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...nced%20listing

My first afternoon before departure was spent going over the boat. No real surprises and everything seemed to work so we prepared for a morning departure.

The boat handled beautifully at low speed getting out of the dock and fairway with just a little engine power: P and S, fore and aft. One thing I discovered is the wierd throttle/shift configuration. Both shifts are on the port side and both throttles are on the starboard side. Never seen that before but if you kept in mind what you were doing it worked fine. It might actually be easier to operate than the more typical configuration.

Throttling up to cruising speed of 15 kts at 2,450 rpm was a breeze and then I tried wot for a minute and noted as did the surveyor that the boat is over propped by 150 and would only reach 2,850. The Flowscans showed 27 gph at the cruising speed but a later fill to fill measurement indicated more like 24 gph. That is about 230 hp per engine. Tried slowing down which would be better for an over propped engine, but the plane wasn't as clean and I decided to keep running at 15 kts and 2,450 rpm.

The first major glitch occurred later that afternoon about half way between Cape May and Atlantic City. The helm started catching as you turned it which is a sure sign of low hydraulic oil. Discussed with the owner about getting a fill kit at Atlantic City but he suggested checking the helm cabinet and low and behold two full bottles of Seastar hydraulic fluid and a fill kit. So I hooked it up and gave the helm an intravenous injection underway which solved the problem.

Another problem which plagued us the entire trip were spurious alarm beeps. We never could get to the bottom of this and it was a bit annoying, but oil pressure and engine temps were good if a little on the high side and we kept going.

We pulled into Farley Marina at Atlantic City and hooked up to 50A shore power. We only got power on one of the two 110 legs. Tried a different outlet and it was the same. The dock hand was going to call his electrician but I was pretty sure it was the boat side and not the dock side so I wiggled the connector and sparks jumped inside. Hmmm!

So I disassembled the connector and found the contacts so corroded I couldn't get continuity from some pins to the wire connector terminals. This was an integrated power cord that pushed out and in with a flick of a switch so it wasn't easy to replace. So we gave up and started the genset for A/C, lights, and hot water. Twice one of the three A/C units tripped the breaker and lugged down the genset when the compressor tried to start. So we turned the offending unit off and got by fine with just fore and aft A/Cs.

The next day was pretty uneventful from a boat perspective, but going around Manhatten up the East River through Hell's Gate was an eye opener. I had done this route 4-5 times before, the last one being 3-4 years ago and what I remembered is after clearing the Battery and the Staten Island ferry docks things settle down. Not so with all of the commuter boats running around churning up the river. This was a Sunday afternoon and I swear I passed a dozen such boats. The river didn't settle down until just before Hell's Gate.

I had mistakenly thought that there were speed restrictions on the East River but those commuter boats didn't know it. So once past the worst of it I throttled up to 15 kts. We ran Hell's Gate with a 3 kt current against us, but at 15 kts it was no sweat.

We arrived at a little mooring basin just to the east of Port Jefferson on LI about 4:30, grabbed a mooring and celebrated a great trip.

One real lesson here: when it is a 30+ year old boat, surveys can't catch it all. The new owner will have his hands full dealing with all of these and other issues we found over our two days. Some may be easy to fix like the power cord and some may be vexing like the spurious alarms and the A/C tripping the breaker.

David
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Old 06-03-2019, 05:48 PM   #2
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When you grabbed a mooring just east of PJ, what was stenciled on it? If it was mine you owe me $1.50/foot. LMAO.
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Old 06-03-2019, 06:49 PM   #3
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We didn't just "grab a mooring". We tied up to the mooring assigned to us by Ralph's in Mt Sinai Harbor, a transient yellow ball.


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Old 06-03-2019, 06:52 PM   #4
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Nice run.
I bet there was 2 bottles of steering fluid for a reason. There is a leak hidden somewhere and the PO knew it.
My Phoenix and Carver both had gears to port and throttles to starboard of the wheel. I found that was pretty common.
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Old 06-03-2019, 07:14 PM   #5
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Nice run.
I bet there was 2 bottles of steering fluid for a reason. There is a leak hidden somewhere and the PO knew it.
My Phoenix and Carver both had gears to port and throttles to starboard of the wheel. I found that was pretty common.
Ditto my GB
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Old 06-03-2019, 07:47 PM   #6
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I am the owner of the boat that David helped me bring to Long Island. David nailed the essence of our trip. He is such a fine gentlemen with a teachers mentality hopefully I can remember half of what he told and showed me. Probably got my hands full with some of the items that need attention but one by one I will address them. In regards to the survey(s) I am not sure what worth they are, not saying they weren't helpful but geez some of the things David pointed out should have been picked up. Live and learn I guess! Thanks Again to David!!
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Old 06-04-2019, 08:42 AM   #7
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Glad the trip went ok.
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Old 06-04-2019, 09:09 AM   #8
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I just got back from helping a TF member deliver his new (to him) boat from Baltimore to the N Shore of Long Island. It was a relatively easy trip and we made it in two days of hard 10 hour runs.

The boat was fully surveyed- both hull and engine before purchase. The boat was repowered from gassers to diesels less than ten years ago and I must say that the twin Cummins 370s and NL genset installation was first class. We had full instrumentation for those engines at the helm including EGT, boost pressure and Flowscans. The new owner will get good service from those engines and the PO dropped somewhere near $100K on the repower job but sold the boat for the price of gassers. Such is the case for big money put into an old boat.

The boat, a 1987 Searay 410 aft cabin MY may turn out not to be the best for this new large cruiser owner. The side decks are at least 5' above the water line so it takes a stair case on dock to board from that location or clamber up a hanging ladder. You can also board from the swim platform and then climb up a ladder to the aft sun deck which is about 6' above the waterline. Not going to be easy to manage a dinghy or general boarding with that layout.

But it does have a nice layout inside. With no helm below the space provides a big salon, a galley and dinette below, an aft queen berth and two forward single berths. Here is the listing: https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...nced%20listing

My first afternoon before departure was spent going over the boat. No real surprises and everything seemed to work so we prepared for a morning departure.

The boat handled beautifully at low speed getting out of the dock and fairway with just a little engine power: P and S, fore and aft. One thing I discovered is the wierd throttle/shift configuration. Both shifts are on the port side and both throttles are on the starboard side. Never seen that before but if you kept in mind what you were doing it worked fine. It might actually be easier to operate than the more typical configuration.

Throttling up to cruising speed of 15 kts at 2,450 rpm was a breeze and then I tried wot for a minute and noted as did the surveyor that the boat is over propped by 150 and would only reach 2,850. The Flowscans showed 27 gph at the cruising speed but a later fill to fill measurement indicated more like 24 gph. That is about 230 hp per engine. Tried slowing down which would be better for an over propped engine, but the plane wasn't as clean and I decided to keep running at 15 kts and 2,450 rpm.

The first major glitch occurred later that afternoon about half way between Cape May and Atlantic City. The helm started catching as you turned it which is a sure sign of low hydraulic oil. Discussed with the owner about getting a fill kit at Atlantic City but he suggested checking the helm cabinet and low and behold two full bottles of Seastar hydraulic fluid and a fill kit. So I hooked it up and gave the helm an intravenous injection underway which solved the problem.

Another problem which plagued us the entire trip were spurious alarm beeps. We never could get to the bottom of this and it was a bit annoying, but oil pressure and engine temps were good if a little on the high side and we kept going.

We pulled into Farley Marina at Atlantic City and hooked up to 50A shore power. We only got power on one of the two 110 legs. Tried a different outlet and it was the same. The dock hand was going to call his electrician but I was pretty sure it was the boat side and not the dock side so I wiggled the connector and sparks jumped inside. Hmmm!

So I disassembled the connector and found the contacts so corroded I couldn't get continuity from some pins to the wire connector terminals. This was an integrated power cord that pushed out and in with a flick of a switch so it wasn't easy to replace. So we gave up and started the genset for A/C, lights, and hot water. Twice one of the three A/C units tripped the breaker and lugged down the genset when the compressor tried to start. So we turned the offending unit off and got by fine with just fore and aft A/Cs.

The next day was pretty uneventful from a boat perspective, but going around Manhatten up the East River through Hell's Gate was an eye opener. I had done this route 4-5 times before, the last one being 3-4 years ago and what I remembered is after clearing the Battery and the Staten Island ferry docks things settle down. Not so with all of the commuter boats running around churning up the river. This was a Sunday afternoon and I swear I passed a dozen such boats. The river didn't settle down until just before Hell's Gate.

I had mistakenly thought that there were speed restrictions on the East River but those commuter boats didn't know it. So once past the worst of it I throttled up to 15 kts. We ran Hell's Gate with a 3 kt current against us, but at 15 kts it was no sweat.

We arrived at a little mooring basin just to the east of Port Jefferson on LI about 4:30, grabbed a mooring and celebrated a great trip.

One real lesson here: when it is a 30+ year old boat, surveys can't catch it all. The new owner will have his hands full dealing with all of these and other issues we found over our two days. Some may be easy to fix like the power cord and some may be vexing like the spurious alarms and the A/C tripping the breaker.

David
Throttling up to cruising speed of 15 kts at 2,450 rpm was a breeze and then I tried wot for a minute and noted as did the surveyor that the boat is over propped by 150 and would only reach 2,850. The Flowscans showed 27 gph at the cruising speed but a later fill to fill measurement indicated more like 24 gph. That is about 230 hp per engine. Tried slowing down which would be better for an over propped engine, but the plane wasn't as clean and I decided to keep running at 15 kts and 2,450 rpm"

Sounds like a great trip. Curious where the pyro sensor was mounted and what boost and EGT readings you were getting at that 2,450 rpm?
Especially when you were running swells if that was the case.
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:18 AM   #9
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I am the owner of the boat that David helped me bring to Long Island. David nailed the essence of our trip. He is such a fine gentlemen with a teachers mentality hopefully I can remember half of what he told and showed me. Probably got my hands full with some of the items that need attention but one by one I will address them. In regards to the survey(s) I am not sure what worth they are, not saying they weren't helpful but geez some of the things David pointed out should have been picked up. Live and learn I guess! Thanks Again to David!!
Hello Larman ,
Congratulations on the new boat in Mt. Sinai, This is a great area to cruise in with so many places to go.
Sounds like a great trip. Curious where the pyro sensor was mounted and what boost and EGT readings you were getting at that 2,450 rpm?
Especially when you were running swells if that was the case.
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:54 PM   #10
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The pyro was located in the insulated part of the riser, after the turbo and before the injection elbow.


At 2,450 rpm and making about 230 hp the boost was 12-14 psi and the EGT was about 900 F.


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Old 06-06-2019, 04:42 AM   #11
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Put together a video of our trip:



and Part 2

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Old 06-06-2019, 07:09 AM   #12
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My Phoenix and Carver both had gears to port and throttles to starboard of the wheel. I found that was pretty common.
Ditto my Chris Craft and my Jefferson. Also, my friend's Silverton had gears to port and throttles to starboard.
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Old 06-06-2019, 07:11 AM   #13
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Congratulations on the new boat, Larman and on the successful delivery, David.
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Old 06-06-2019, 07:16 AM   #14
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Great videos and trip. We have been through the city many times and can appreciate the current and the way your vessel handled it.

Your video says you were cruising at 17 knots what was the rpm, pyro, boost and fuel readings at that speed?
Were the pyro and boost readings always matched port and stb?
What technique did you use to balance the engines pt and stb?

A good trick we learned is to snap some pictures of all the gages at various speeds to act as a baseline for further comparison in the future.

It will be great to get really accustomed to your new boat in the next days and weeks.
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Old 06-06-2019, 07:41 AM   #15
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I posted that data in post #10. I think the 17 kts reported in the video was with current. The dead water speed was always 15 kts except in and out of ports.


And FWIW the fill to fill data showed both engines burning exactly the same fuel. The port tank feeds the port engine, etc and there is no way to cross connect or equalize the tanks.



The boat did not have synchronizers so we just matched the rpm within about 10 manually. Never heard any beating when they were off though.


And as others have pointed out, combining shift and throttles port and starboard seems to be the more prevalent style. It did require you to pay attention when turning the boat using reverse while docking. But we didn't have any wind when docking so I could take it slow while backing in and think through the actions first.


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Old 06-06-2019, 07:54 AM   #16
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I posted that data in post #10. I think the 17 kts reported in the video was with current. The dead water speed was always 15 kts except in and out of ports.



The boat did not have synchronizers so we just matched the rpm within about 10 manually. Never heard any beating when they were off though.


And as others have pointed out, combining shift and throttles port and starboard seems to be the more prevalent style. It did require you to pay attention when turning the boat using reverse while docking. But we didn't have any wind when docking so I could take it slow while backing in and think through the actions first.


David
"I posted that data in post #10. I think the 17 kts reported in the video was with current. The dead water speed was always 15 kts except in and out of ports."

Interesting - it seems like the video was saying that you were in the Atlantic at that time cruising north and I do not remember ever getting a tail current near like that.
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Old 06-06-2019, 09:45 AM   #17
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Even with the limited data that is on this thread I would suggest that you take quick action in removing some pitch from the props and/or swapping props if the pitch reduction is not possible
Not knowing your prop specs, your trans ratios, the bottom condition of the boat and your anticipated loading of that boat it is unknown how much you should take out
A good rule of thumb especially with those engines is to underprop boat.
Doing the props now will serve you very well with extended engine life, efficiency, and often even speed all.
On Long Island you have a number of options for good props shops and a haul should not be so painful this time of year.
Your prop shop will need your current data on trans ratio, current top speed with accurate rpm and your desired results along with the existing props.
Might want to check the backlog if any of the prop shop you choose before scheduling the balance of the project.
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Old 06-06-2019, 11:42 AM   #18
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Sorry for the newbie question, I am told I am over propped not sure how that works. In my mind over propping would mean more speed. In this case I am under the desired RPM and speed? Can this wait until after the season is over when its hauled etc? The bottom was cleaned at the survey last month.
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Old 06-06-2019, 12:03 PM   #19
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Sorry for the newbie question, I am told I am over propped not sure how that works. In my mind over propping would mean more speed. In this case I am under the desired RPM and speed? Can this wait until after the season is over when its hauled etc? The bottom was cleaned at the survey last month.
If it were my boat it would be the first thing I would do.
You can always cruise the boat at hull speed safely - your pyro and boost gages are very valuable tools with these diesel engines.

If you do not change pitch now these things will likely happen shortly:
- Your hull will grain growth
- Your running gear will gain growth
- The boat will take on a lot of weight as you "move aboard"
- You will cruise in rising temps and humidity's as the season extends
- You may also cruise in fresh water sometime this season

Any of these will continue to reduce your rpm while they raise your EGT and internal engines temperatures. Combined 2 or more of these will get you to a problem areas rather shortly.
If your pyros are not correct now, if they are not positioned in the central flame kernel, if you did not record the highest readings while cruising then you could be into the limit already.
Those engines are more valuable than the boat - they could/should last a lifetime.
So again if it were me - I would cruise at hull speeds or re-pitch ASAP.
Just my experience and by speaking with dozens of similar setups over the years.
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Old 06-06-2019, 12:11 PM   #20
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Thanks for the information. Funny how my surveyor did not mention any of this as I may have been able to negotiate this to be completed before closing.
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