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Old 10-12-2016, 09:58 PM   #21
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Seahorse Marine fly bridges are not steel. Just Sayin'

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Neither is its pilothouse roof.
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Old 10-12-2016, 10:03 PM   #22
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Neither is its pilothouse roof.


Any other good points ?
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Old 10-13-2016, 12:23 AM   #23
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Sad thing is that the operator will get little more than a slap on the wrist, at least no penalty that in my mind is appropriate for the reckless disregard of human lives. Accidents are one thing and I feel bad for anyone in one, even if it's their fault. But this was just insanity.
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Old 10-13-2016, 12:49 AM   #24
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We were cruising nearby to the boat, and arrive after first responder so we keep our distance.. very, very reckless onwer,, a child almost died.. bay was very cold (well.. like always..) a somber remembering about precautions on the water...
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Old 10-13-2016, 12:56 AM   #25
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Sad thing is that the operator will get little more than a slap on the wrist, at least no penalty that in my mind is appropriate for the reckless disregard of human lives. Accidents are one thing and I feel bad for anyone in one, even if it's their fault. But this was just insanity.

I guess we'll see how understanding the operator's passengers are. Perhaps his penalty will come from the local Civil Court.

Like in another thread, I hope he read the fine print of his insurance policy.
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:12 AM   #26
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The parents of the child may not be very understanding. Without knowing all the facts it seems a serious offense calling for a substantial penalty,the child`s survival sounds more good fortune rather than good management.
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:25 AM   #27
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Bruce,

The first public report was of a child found inside the cabin and unresponsive. CPR was immediately started by bystanders and continued by rescue personnel all the way to the hospital.

I was thrilled to hear the young boy was released from the hospital yesterday !

So now this whole mess has turned into pure intertainment....but still a lesson for folks that think a checkbook makes a captain.
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:45 AM   #28
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Thanks Ray,the boy`s recovery is wonderful news, all credit to those who helped.
We can hope publicity and penalty help prevent it happening again, perhaps to a child who may be less fortunate than the boy in this event.
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Old 10-13-2016, 10:50 AM   #29
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It never ends. Why do the smaller boat owners overload so willingly? I have a 42 and it sleeps 4, drinks 6 period. I would never have 27 on my boat.

Very glad to see the response which always proves how eager to help the boating community is, and that everybody is safe and well. Now it remains to be seen if the skipper learned anything.
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Old 10-13-2016, 11:32 AM   #30
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While we see outrage here, I'm not even sure how much we'll see from the general public. I would hope a lot from the families but they need to share some blame too. Yes, the captain is in charge, the owner should know, but as a parent, you'd think even the least boating knowledgeable would have at some point questioned things. Still, a little comparison for you to consider.

It seems we often, much as in sports, equate the penalty to the results, not the action. Simple situation, murder much worse than attempted murder.

So, now which of these do you consider the worst action.

Number one-Mother normally takes child to day care, but today the father is doing so as she's sick. He puts the child in the seat safely in the back. He starts the drive. Traffic is horrible. The day care is for the first 10 miles the same road as his work. Thirty minutes later he arrives at work, running late, grabs his briefcase and runs in. Not until his wife calls to ask if he had any trouble at day care does he know what he's done. He runs to the car but too late, calls 911 but too late.

Or number two-

2-A. A boat owner takes 13 adults and 14 kids on a 34' Silverton. Frigid water. Life jackets not worn. 3 kids are killed. Based on my interpretation of Australian rules this boat was maxed for 13 people, no more than 3 on the bridge.

2-B. A boat owner takes 27 adults and 3 kids on a 34' Silverton. Frigid water. Life jackets not worn. All are rescued from the water although at least one kid comes very close to being killed. Based on my interpretation of Australian rules this boat was maxed for 13 people, no more than 3 on the bridge.

Who do you think committed the most serious offense? Who will be penalized and suffer most?
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Old 10-13-2016, 11:35 AM   #31
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Is this a riddle?
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Old 10-13-2016, 12:05 PM   #32
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Is this a riddle?
No, it's a serious question and boating issue. The relatively minor penalties regarding boating operation. BUI is not even penalized as much as DUI in most states and DUI penalties are weak. In a pickup truck or something this would get some major tickets it won't get on the water because we have no hard and fast loading rules on boats that size. Boating laws are for the most part poorly written and vague and prosecution even of the ones on the books are hard. I've seen things on a lake far more often than on the coast from horribly dangerous operation to drunken operation to overloading and I've been friends with NC Wildlife Officers who often felt quite powerless.

The second point is that if we have two identical actions both of which could result in death, one does and one doesn't, the action was still the same.

Then last the entire issue of conscious acts such as overloading the boats vs. horribly tragic accidents such as the child.

A very small percentage of boating "accidents" are just the result of mistakes. Most are the result of poor choices and behaviors and reckless operation.
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Old 10-13-2016, 12:25 PM   #33
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A very small percentage of boating "accidents" are just the result of mistakes. Most are the result of poor choices and behaviors and reckless operation.
I see this as the problem. Common sense would have prevented both mishaps in my opinion and you can't teach common sense so you end up passing laws to enforce against all.
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Old 10-13-2016, 12:45 PM   #34
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This incident strikes close to home on a couple fronts.

1. Days before the show, I was pressured to place 7 people on my 34 ft boat to observe the air show. I was told that I had a FB and folks could go there to watch, plus the bow plus the cockpit. I emphatically told this person that I wouldn't place 7 folks onboard a pitching, rolling boat in SF Bay for an airshow and the FB would be closed and not available during the show. I also explained that I was not comfortable with folks on the bow without wearing PFDs. It's not safe and not something I'll do with my boat. I placed the max limit at 4 for the day and stuck to it. I was there to enjoy the show with those aboard. I did not want to worry about their safety in a sea conditions that I considered potentially hazardous for the load.

2. I was there that day with just 2 of us onboard. Apparently the accident occurred just as the Blue Angels were completing their flight demonstration. I watched the USCG and LEO boats tear off the restricted area line and race toward the capsized vessel en masse. I listened to the rescue in real time in Ch 22 as the vessels checked in with the USCG Cutter Pike with reports of folks rescued and persons in the water and under the capsized hull. It was heart wrenching to hear this tragedy unfold in real time.

I know I'm mostly preaching to choir here, but we all have a responsibility to operate our vessels as safely as possible, prepared for the unexpected at times. This event has strengthened my resolve to continue to comply with the limits I place on myself and my boat regardless of friend resistance.

If that risks a friendship, then it wasn't a much of friendship. It's better to risk a friendship than a life.

If you zoom in on these pics, you'll see that we were front row, airshow center on Saturday. In the helo shot, our dinghy-covered stern (under the tail rotor) is facing the camera. Conditions look benign, but anyone who knows the SF Bay knows that wakes and waves can become significant and troubled waters in these crowded conditions are common.
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Old 10-13-2016, 01:20 PM   #35
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Experience is the next best thing to engineering.

I had a top guy in salvage ask me to help place a 750 pound anchor plus chain and cable in the channel using a 26 foot tug during a recent storm. Once on scene with all the components, I refused.

I suggested dropping the anchor to the bottom and dragging it out due to my experience with connected weights on deck. Worked flawlessly.

Not all 34 foot boats are the same. Loading a 34 foot boat can be done in various ways.....and greatly differ in weight, yet only slight changes could be major shifts in stability.

The problem with people is the load is dynsmic...and keeping it vitally static is a real problem.

But to sit back and say what a boat can or can't handle is pretty bold.

Every day commercial operators and rescue resources make calculated decisions based on experience that exceed known operating limitations....and survive just fine.....experience is the difference between success and failure in many situations.

When in doubt....lean towards conservatine...but to sLing some assumptions is baseless. This is one of those "fail" situations....so it is easy to point fingers. It takes a different sort to point the same finger in situations of success and be able to substantiate a dangerous situation.
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:39 PM   #36
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When in doubt....lean towards conservatine...but to sLing some assumptions is baseless. This is one of those "fail" situations....so it is easy to point fingers. It takes a different sort to point the same finger in situations of success and be able to substantiate a dangerous situation.
There is nothing at all baseless about saying a 34' Silverton shouldn't have 30 people on board. We're not talking one person over what one might recommend. We're talking about a boat with three times a normal load on that boat and twice what I would have imagined someone trying to justify. We don't have limits in this country so I used Australia's only as an example. But this one is so far beyond anything reasonable,, that I will without hesitation point fingers and say it's dangerous. Just because others might have done so and not capsized or sunk, doesn't mean it wasn't dangerous for them, just they were lucky. I don't care if 9 out of 10 doing it would be fine or even 49 our of 50, that loading is still dangerous and then on top of that no life jackets being worn.
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Old 10-13-2016, 04:29 PM   #37
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I hadn't seen where it was determined to be a 34 Silverton yet.

But not all 34s are created equal and the simplistic formula used as reported in Australia and it's shoot off in US boating safety classes is definitely for rookies.

If you ever had to work commercially, you better have a better feel for loading or have the USCG certify the vessel rather than use that formula.
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Old 10-13-2016, 04:38 PM   #38
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I hadn't seen where it was determined to be a 34 Silverton yet.

But not all 34s are created equal and the simplistic formula used as reported in Australia and it's shoot off in US boating safety classes is definitely for rookies.

If you ever had to work commercially, you better have a better feel for loading or have the USCG certify the vessel rather than use that formula.
I have a better feel without working commercially and I know that boat shouldn't have 30 people on it. Are you saying you think it should have? What it your argument other than to act like no one else knows anythings and loving to make insulting and "rookie" comments. I think on this boat and what I know of this boat and have seen that somewhere around the 13 or so in the Australian formula is as much if not more than should be on it. If I saw a boat like that with 30 people today, I'd say the same. Just answer this simply:

A. Do you think it was overloaded?
B. Do you think it was fine?
C. Do you think you'd need more information to know if it was or not?

I'm clear. I think it was overloaded. Didn't need the formula to say that, but used the formula just to see what it said. And maybe it wasn't a Silverton, but it wasn't any type 34' that would have been acceptable. Yes, there may be some, but they look nothing like it.
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Old 10-13-2016, 05:19 PM   #39
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All I have seen is part of a hull.

And read a lot of speculation.

My main point is it is easy to say it is overloaded after it turned over.....but a few here have given advice through the years to people who gave asked....how many can I take out?

My point is the formula is so conservative for some boats and not enough for others.....not sure what the answer is for others....I know mine for this case and when I have to load a boat that is pushing the limits.
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Old 10-13-2016, 05:37 PM   #40
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All I have seen is part of a hull.

And read a lot of speculation.

My main point is it is easy to say it is overloaded after it turned over.....but a few here have given advice through the years to people who gave asked....how many can I take out?

My point is the formula is so conservative for some boats and not enough for others.....not sure what the answer is for others....I know mine for this case and when I have to load a boat that is pushing the limits.
I saw one not as loaded as it last week and said it was overloaded. I saw a 24' or so bowrider with 14 people and said it was overloaded and a double deck pontoon a few weeks ago that must have had 40 or more and I said it was overloaded. None of those overturned.

When people ask here our first question is what size and kind of boat and I'm normally conservative and say I wouldn't personally take more than x number. The conversation is only about the boat in question though and it doesn't take rocket science or formulas to know it was overloaded.

Now, here's a question. Have you ever seen a LEO ticket a boat or make them take some people to shore based on overloading? I haven't. I've seen a lot more boats overloaded on the lake too, many of which had a plate which apparently in NC there is no law against loading beyond the plate, using a motor beyond, or anything else on it, just recommendation.
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