Boat capsized
- Thread starter AusCan
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No, it's a serious question and boating issue. The relatively minor penalties regarding boating operation. BUI is not even penalized as much as DUI in most states and DUI penalties are weak. In a pickup truck or something this would get some major tickets it won't get on the water because we have no hard and fast loading rules on boats that size. Boating laws are for the most part poorly written and vague and prosecution even of the ones on the books are hard. I've seen things on a lake far more often than on the coast from horribly dangerous operation to drunken operation to overloading and I've been friends with NC Wildlife Officers who often felt quite powerless.
The second point is that if we have two identical actions both of which could result in death, one does and one doesn't, the action was still the same.
Then last the entire issue of conscious acts such as overloading the boats vs. horribly tragic accidents such as the child.
A very small percentage of boating "accidents" are just the result of mistakes. Most are the result of poor choices and behaviors and reckless operation.
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This incident strikes close to home on a couple fronts.
1. Days before the show, I was pressured to place 7 people on my 34 ft boat to observe the air show. I was told that I had a FB and folks could go there to watch, plus the bow plus the cockpit. I emphatically told this person that I wouldn't place 7 folks onboard a pitching, rolling boat in SF Bay for an airshow and the FB would be closed and not available during the show. I also explained that I was not comfortable with folks on the bow without wearing PFDs. It's not safe and not something I'll do with my boat. I placed the max limit at 4 for the day and stuck to it. I was there to enjoy the show with those aboard. I did not want to worry about their safety in a sea conditions that I considered potentially hazardous for the load.
2. I was there that day with just 2 of us onboard. Apparently the accident occurred just as the Blue Angels were completing their flight demonstration. I watched the USCG and LEO boats tear off the restricted area line and race toward the capsized vessel en masse. I listened to the rescue in real time in Ch 22 as the vessels checked in with the USCG Cutter Pike with reports of folks rescued and persons in the water and under the capsized hull. It was heart wrenching to hear this tragedy unfold in real time.
I know I'm mostly preaching to choir here, but we all have a responsibility to operate our vessels as safely as possible, prepared for the unexpected at times. This event has strengthened my resolve to continue to comply with the limits I place on myself and my boat regardless of friend resistance.
If that risks a friendship, then it wasn't a much of friendship. It's better to risk a friendship than a life.
If you zoom in on these pics, you'll see that we were front row, airshow center on Saturday. In the helo shot, our dinghy-covered stern (under the tail rotor) is facing the camera. Conditions look benign, but anyone who knows the SF Bay knows that wakes and waves can become significant and troubled waters in these crowded conditions are common.
1. Days before the show, I was pressured to place 7 people on my 34 ft boat to observe the air show. I was told that I had a FB and folks could go there to watch, plus the bow plus the cockpit. I emphatically told this person that I wouldn't place 7 folks onboard a pitching, rolling boat in SF Bay for an airshow and the FB would be closed and not available during the show. I also explained that I was not comfortable with folks on the bow without wearing PFDs. It's not safe and not something I'll do with my boat. I placed the max limit at 4 for the day and stuck to it. I was there to enjoy the show with those aboard. I did not want to worry about their safety in a sea conditions that I considered potentially hazardous for the load.
2. I was there that day with just 2 of us onboard. Apparently the accident occurred just as the Blue Angels were completing their flight demonstration. I watched the USCG and LEO boats tear off the restricted area line and race toward the capsized vessel en masse. I listened to the rescue in real time in Ch 22 as the vessels checked in with the USCG Cutter Pike with reports of folks rescued and persons in the water and under the capsized hull. It was heart wrenching to hear this tragedy unfold in real time.
I know I'm mostly preaching to choir here, but we all have a responsibility to operate our vessels as safely as possible, prepared for the unexpected at times. This event has strengthened my resolve to continue to comply with the limits I place on myself and my boat regardless of friend resistance.
If that risks a friendship, then it wasn't a much of friendship. It's better to risk a friendship than a life.
If you zoom in on these pics, you'll see that we were front row, airshow center on Saturday. In the helo shot, our dinghy-covered stern (under the tail rotor) is facing the camera. Conditions look benign, but anyone who knows the SF Bay knows that wakes and waves can become significant and troubled waters in these crowded conditions are common.
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psneeld
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Experience is the next best thing to engineering.
I had a top guy in salvage ask me to help place a 750 pound anchor plus chain and cable in the channel using a 26 foot tug during a recent storm. Once on scene with all the components, I refused.
I suggested dropping the anchor to the bottom and dragging it out due to my experience with connected weights on deck. Worked flawlessly.
Not all 34 foot boats are the same. Loading a 34 foot boat can be done in various ways.....and greatly differ in weight, yet only slight changes could be major shifts in stability.
The problem with people is the load is dynsmic...and keeping it vitally static is a real problem.
But to sit back and say what a boat can or can't handle is pretty bold.
Every day commercial operators and rescue resources make calculated decisions based on experience that exceed known operating limitations....and survive just fine.....experience is the difference between success and failure in many situations.
When in doubt....lean towards conservatine...but to sLing some assumptions is baseless. This is one of those "fail" situations....so it is easy to point fingers. It takes a different sort to point the same finger in situations of success and be able to substantiate a dangerous situation.
I had a top guy in salvage ask me to help place a 750 pound anchor plus chain and cable in the channel using a 26 foot tug during a recent storm. Once on scene with all the components, I refused.
I suggested dropping the anchor to the bottom and dragging it out due to my experience with connected weights on deck. Worked flawlessly.
Not all 34 foot boats are the same. Loading a 34 foot boat can be done in various ways.....and greatly differ in weight, yet only slight changes could be major shifts in stability.
The problem with people is the load is dynsmic...and keeping it vitally static is a real problem.
But to sit back and say what a boat can or can't handle is pretty bold.
Every day commercial operators and rescue resources make calculated decisions based on experience that exceed known operating limitations....and survive just fine.....experience is the difference between success and failure in many situations.
When in doubt....lean towards conservatine...but to sLing some assumptions is baseless. This is one of those "fail" situations....so it is easy to point fingers. It takes a different sort to point the same finger in situations of success and be able to substantiate a dangerous situation.
There is nothing at all baseless about saying a 34' Silverton shouldn't have 30 people on board. We're not talking one person over what one might recommend. We're talking about a boat with three times a normal load on that boat and twice what I would have imagined someone trying to justify. We don't have limits in this country so I used Australia's only as an example. But this one is so far beyond anything reasonable,, that I will without hesitation point fingers and say it's dangerous. Just because others might have done so and not capsized or sunk, doesn't mean it wasn't dangerous for them, just they were lucky. I don't care if 9 out of 10 doing it would be fine or even 49 our of 50, that loading is still dangerous and then on top of that no life jackets being worn.
psneeld
Guru
I hadn't seen where it was determined to be a 34 Silverton yet.
But not all 34s are created equal and the simplistic formula used as reported in Australia and it's shoot off in US boating safety classes is definitely for rookies.
If you ever had to work commercially, you better have a better feel for loading or have the USCG certify the vessel rather than use that formula.
But not all 34s are created equal and the simplistic formula used as reported in Australia and it's shoot off in US boating safety classes is definitely for rookies.
If you ever had to work commercially, you better have a better feel for loading or have the USCG certify the vessel rather than use that formula.
I have a better feel without working commercially and I know that boat shouldn't have 30 people on it. Are you saying you think it should have? What it your argument other than to act like no one else knows anythings and loving to make insulting and "rookie" comments. I think on this boat and what I know of this boat and have seen that somewhere around the 13 or so in the Australian formula is as much if not more than should be on it. If I saw a boat like that with 30 people today, I'd say the same. Just answer this simply:
A. Do you think it was overloaded?
B. Do you think it was fine?
C. Do you think you'd need more information to know if it was or not?
I'm clear. I think it was overloaded. Didn't need the formula to say that, but used the formula just to see what it said. And maybe it wasn't a Silverton, but it wasn't any type 34' that would have been acceptable. Yes, there may be some, but they look nothing like it.
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psneeld
Guru
All I have seen is part of a hull.
And read a lot of speculation.
My main point is it is easy to say it is overloaded after it turned over.....but a few here have given advice through the years to people who gave asked....how many can I take out?
My point is the formula is so conservative for some boats and not enough for others.....not sure what the answer is for others....I know mine for this case and when I have to load a boat that is pushing the limits.
And read a lot of speculation.
My main point is it is easy to say it is overloaded after it turned over.....but a few here have given advice through the years to people who gave asked....how many can I take out?
My point is the formula is so conservative for some boats and not enough for others.....not sure what the answer is for others....I know mine for this case and when I have to load a boat that is pushing the limits.
I saw one not as loaded as it last week and said it was overloaded. I saw a 24' or so bowrider with 14 people and said it was overloaded and a double deck pontoon a few weeks ago that must have had 40 or more and I said it was overloaded. None of those overturned.
When people ask here our first question is what size and kind of boat and I'm normally conservative and say I wouldn't personally take more than x number. The conversation is only about the boat in question though and it doesn't take rocket science or formulas to know it was overloaded.
Now, here's a question. Have you ever seen a LEO ticket a boat or make them take some people to shore based on overloading? I haven't. I've seen a lot more boats overloaded on the lake too, many of which had a plate which apparently in NC there is no law against loading beyond the plate, using a motor beyond, or anything else on it, just recommendation.
psneeld
Guru
Exactly my point...it is easy to say a boat is over or poorly loaded when it capsizes.....
How good are TFers at loading their boats?
That's my point....knowing the warning signs without a formula that I know is rediculous for many boats in many situations.
How good are TFers at loading their boats?
That's my point....knowing the warning signs without a formula that I know is rediculous for many boats in many situations.
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Google results are in:
Capsized boat in San Francisco Bay may have been overloaded | The Sacramento Bee
Boat that capsized off Fisherman’s Wharf overloaded, police say - SFGate
Apparently we're not the only ones who think 30 people on a 34 Silverton is overloaded.
Capsized boat in San Francisco Bay may have been overloaded | The Sacramento Bee
Boat that capsized off Fisherman’s Wharf overloaded, police say - SFGate
Apparently we're not the only ones who think 30 people on a 34 Silverton is overloaded.
sdowney717
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I suspect good at it 99.5% of the time. Perhaps good on their main boat but not on their dinghy sometimes. It's still that 0.5% of the time we have to be careful. I'm very conservative in loading and very controlling in where people sit or what they do on a boat. I doubt that I've ever exceeded the formula you think is ridiculously conservative, not by using it, just by nature. Far more overloading of smaller boats than TF types and of sport boats than trawler types.
I'm a bit along the rule too that if there isn't a seat for everyone, then you have too many. Nothing scientific.
We have had occasion in which we had one more person than our Rib was set up and rated for. It's been very hard to say we have to make two trips. My feeling though is once you cross the line, it becomes easier, so I don't cross it. If I can find a way to justify it today, then I'll find justification again next time.
psneeld
Guru
Experience is the factor.
You post a lot about business and insurance that I know little about.
You make good, justifiable points that I can go and verify.
The same is true of boating and flying......knowledge and experience allow for "guessing right" when there are no absolutes.
A 34 Silverton may be fine with 30 people on board if they all stayed put like sandbags. I would have to run a few numbers or look at the waterline to make that educated guess when loaded. The feel of how a boat moves even a few degrees tied to the dock is a telltale. Roll and recovery says a lot...even a tiny bit let's you know if more extreme roll will be unrecoverable or nearly so.
On review, look at the waterline....other than being down by the bow a touch, it doesn't look as overloaded as allowed to become poorly loaded.
You post a lot about business and insurance that I know little about.
You make good, justifiable points that I can go and verify.
The same is true of boating and flying......knowledge and experience allow for "guessing right" when there are no absolutes.
A 34 Silverton may be fine with 30 people on board if they all stayed put like sandbags. I would have to run a few numbers or look at the waterline to make that educated guess when loaded. The feel of how a boat moves even a few degrees tied to the dock is a telltale. Roll and recovery says a lot...even a tiny bit let's you know if more extreme roll will be unrecoverable or nearly so.
On review, look at the waterline....other than being down by the bow a touch, it doesn't look as overloaded as allowed to become poorly loaded.
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I once had 23 people aboard for my boat's christening in the CA Delta one summer evening. We were at anchor with our boating buddies aboard from nearby anchored sailboats and trawlers. All were VERY boat savvy in benign conditions and we weren't going anywhere. The whole boat was surrounded with 7 or 8 dinghies and we had enough PFDs.
It's a whole 'nuther story to be moving around the SF Bay in the year's most crowded event in challenging conditions with young families aboard totaling 30 people. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that either someone fell overboard or the way the boat was positioned re: the airshow display that caused everyone to shift to one side and over they went. I'm not predicting, but I have a hunch...
It's a whole 'nuther story to be moving around the SF Bay in the year's most crowded event in challenging conditions with young families aboard totaling 30 people. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that either someone fell overboard or the way the boat was positioned re: the airshow display that caused everyone to shift to one side and over they went. I'm not predicting, but I have a hunch...
dhays
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BandB,
To answer your question, I think that the scenario in 2A or 2B are both much worse than #1. In your first scenario, the father intended to the do the right thing but simply had a brain fade. I have often the wrong exit for example simply by being on automatic pilot. This was an accident in the truest sense of the word.
In both 2A and 2B the captain made a conscious decision to operate the vessel in an unsafe manner either through ignorance or a callous disregard for both common sense and the rules. Even if a capsize had never occurred, this would be a much more serious offense than the poor father simply because it was intentional.
To answer your question, I think that the scenario in 2A or 2B are both much worse than #1. In your first scenario, the father intended to the do the right thing but simply had a brain fade. I have often the wrong exit for example simply by being on automatic pilot. This was an accident in the truest sense of the word.
In both 2A and 2B the captain made a conscious decision to operate the vessel in an unsafe manner either through ignorance or a callous disregard for both common sense and the rules. Even if a capsize had never occurred, this would be a much more serious offense than the poor father simply because it was intentional.
And if it requires an assumption of staying put like sand bags, then that's, in my opinion, overloaded. The sand bags will shift.
OP
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AusCan
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Boat loading safety is more than just number of people.
There are times I get concerned at how my boat is loaded with only 4 people on board. In rough water, the "rules" change completely. I make sure heavy items such as tool boxes and jerry cans are down low, and secure; even in a knock down. Not only stored items but fixtures as well. Hot water heaters, refrigerators, fuel tanks, batteries can all break loose and have the potential to sink a boat.
Imagine what could happen if you got hit by a big a wake and it caused your 20lb tool box to slide forcefully into your seacock. It would be like hitting your seacock with a big sledge hammer.
There are times I get concerned at how my boat is loaded with only 4 people on board. In rough water, the "rules" change completely. I make sure heavy items such as tool boxes and jerry cans are down low, and secure; even in a knock down. Not only stored items but fixtures as well. Hot water heaters, refrigerators, fuel tanks, batteries can all break loose and have the potential to sink a boat.
Imagine what could happen if you got hit by a big a wake and it caused your 20lb tool box to slide forcefully into your seacock. It would be like hitting your seacock with a big sledge hammer.
All true! Interesting that you mention potential of tool box hitting seacock with sledge hammer force. I was trained when young that ALL heavy items should always be stored well secured so that even if in any type of rough seas at any time they cannot slide out of place. I practice that rule constantly.
