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Old 03-07-2015, 01:28 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Mick Scarborough View Post
True LEOs do not consider the USCG as brothers. They just don't meet the criteria.
Maybe not.

But on that stormy night, its going to be the United States Coast Guard standing between you and the darkest of times. When your voice comes in over the radio, afraid, and cold, with no hope at all, it will be the members of the United States Coast Guard that will risk their lives to save yours. It doesn't matter how stormy it is. It doesn't matter how dangerous it is. If they can hear you, they will come.

You may not know this, but every member of the US Coast Guard does, its an old tradition.

During recruit training for the US Coast Guard every one of the recruits is marched in the middle of the night out into the surf.

There they are made to take a drink of sea water. They are told to remember that taste, because if they fail at their jobs that is the last taste that someone they could have saved will have in their mouth before they die.

No matter what their mission has become with the current whims of politics and a changing world, the primary thing the United States Coast Guard does is save lives.

There is no nobler calling.
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Old 03-07-2015, 01:58 AM   #22
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Thanks Kevin for saying what needed to be said.
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Old 03-07-2015, 02:46 AM   #23
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Kevin is correct that the USCG is not included in the provisions of the Posse Comitatus Act. As was noted, it was a part of Treasury when the act was passed and now is part of Homeland Security and thus exempt from the provisions of the Act. Interestingly enough, the Department of the Navy (Navy and Marine Corps) is not included in the Act either. The original Act applied only to the Army. The Air Force was added by amendment in the late 50's. The Department of Defense has by regulation decreed that the Navy and Marine Corps will abide by the provisions of the Act. There are exceptions allowing the use of the armed forces within the US. Some of the older guys here will probably recall that Eisenhower sent US Army troops into Little Rock, Arkansas in the mid-fifties during the school desegregation crisis. The exception used there was one that provides that if a state cannot or will not protect the constitutional rights of its citizens, then the federal government may use the military to do so.
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Old 03-07-2015, 06:36 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Mick Scarborough View Post
True LEOs do not consider the USCG as brothers. They just don't meet the criteria.
Maybe not in your experience..and maybe not from all local yokles..but many of my friends and LEO brothers are from all sorts of law enforcement.

The Maritime Law Enforcement school that the USCG ran when I went through it was worth enough college credits and practical experience to be considered entry level for some police departments. While not all Coasties go through that school...it was very comprehensive.

Many disconnects between the USCG are over turf wars and pig headedness rather than lack of competency.

Like lots of folks all over, the LEOs I worked with knew that when they were critically injured and no one else was go back get them to a hospital...their best chance was the USCG. Or even just backup in some places we could get to and get there support quick. They may not have wanted us leading an investigation ...but they always would buy us a beer if it wasn't a current turf war hotspot.
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Old 03-07-2015, 09:24 AM   #25
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Old 03-07-2015, 12:32 PM   #26
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True LEOs do not consider the USCG as brothers. They just don't meet the criteria.
Ah, no, that would be incorrect.

Later,
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Old 03-07-2015, 12:37 PM   #27
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Law enforcement is absolutely forbidden to the point that an active LE individual can not represent the auxiliary do to conflict of interest issues.
Does that mean active LEO's cannot be and USCG auxiliary member?

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Old 03-07-2015, 01:00 PM   #28
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UNITED STATES COAST GUARD AUXILIARY

Based on the above manual..I would say LEOs can join.

If active duty military can...not sure why LEOS cant....there are all sorts of conflict of interest possible....but be a use they are volunteer with no broad legal authority I really don't see it.
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Old 03-07-2015, 01:16 PM   #29
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Unhappy

I had a voluntary safety inspection by the CGAUX. this was the 4th annual inspection on this boat. They picked up something I never knew and I'm wondering if others are aware of this requirement:

The documentation number which is permanently affixed in my engine room MUST be preceded by the designation "NO." And mine were not. The penalty for this "violation" is $10,000! Yes, you read that correctly $10K. And, ongoing daily fines until corrected. Needless to say I have ordered a new number board.

Interestingly this was never picked up in prior inspections.

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Old 03-07-2015, 01:27 PM   #30
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Does that mean active LEO's cannot be and USCG auxiliary member?

Later,
Dan
That question may vary from State to State and County to County. It's more a question of Agency policy. For Washington State Officers there is no prohibition to being a volunteer member of a volunteer fire department, the USCG auxiliary, Aid Car driver, etc. They don't carry a commission recognized by the state, they don't carry fire arms and aren't considered enforcement officers. Many LEO's are reservists in different branches of the military, even though they do carry arms but this is covered by Federal law.

Law enforcement "cross commissioning" is a thorny issue and usually is only allowed when expressly approved by the Agency chief. Most State LE agencies would not allow a State commissioned officer to be a paid reserve officer for another Agency. (This mainly is an issue of liability.)
But there are many examples of approved cross commissioning. Tribal police officers who also carry sheriff deputy commissions. Some State Troopers and Department of Corrections officers who are also commissioned US Marshals. But these are exceptions to the rule and approved based on necessity.

But keep in mind, there are occupations where their duties are protected by law. Such as a fireman or a flagger directing traffic. They aren't LEO's, but citizens have to obey their lawful directions. Drive across the hoses at a fire scene sometime and see what happens. A complaint to police or the prosecutor will result in charges.
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Old 03-07-2015, 01:32 PM   #31
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Does that mean active LEO's cannot be and USCG auxiliary member?

Later,
Dan
Only forbidden where conflict of interest such as VSC as an example. Any form of law enforcement that could conflict with the AUX mission might cause a problem. I am not specifically authorized to speak for the CGAUX, but there is a detailed written set of standards in the AUX manual. I can not answer the basic question but will inquire and may have a answer after Monday.
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Old 03-07-2015, 03:50 PM   #32
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From the manual I posted a link to earlier....

Section Q. Weapons
Weapons, except those worn by certified law enforcement officers in accordance with
Federal, State, and local laws and regulations and required by their agency policy, may
not be worn, carried, or held by any Auxiliarist or guest of the Auxiliary while attending
an approved Auxiliary function or participating in an authorized Auxiliary activity,
including regularly scheduled detachment, flotilla, or division meetings. This prohibition....

Unless the wine isn't doing its job properly...I read this to mean LEOS can be auxiliarist and carry their weapon IAW.....


Not sure how doing a VSC would constitute a conflict.
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Old 03-07-2015, 03:55 PM   #33
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I don't dispute the lawyers facts...but when I first read it it seemed to suggest the USCGAUX was a bit more than it is.

Unfortunately for every great auxiliarist there are 10 blowhards7 and for every great flotilla there's a few too many old boys clubs.
Not to be argumentative, but my experience working with them has been anything but.
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Old 03-07-2015, 03:57 PM   #34
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I had a voluntary safety inspection by the CGAUX. this was the 4th annual inspection on this boat. They picked up something I never knew and I'm wondering if others are aware of this requirement:

The documentation number which is permanently affixed in my engine room MUST be preceded by the designation "NO." And mine were not. The penalty for this "violation" is $10,000! Yes, you read that correctly $10K. And, ongoing daily fines until corrected. Needless to say I have ordered a new number board.

Interestingly this was never picked up in prior inspections.

Howard
I believe it is on the documentation paper or "How to number" on the Documentation center FAQ page.

As I think many other have pointed out in other threads....my last inspection they never asked to even see them. If there was any doubt of ownership or scrutiny of your doc papers....it might be a big deal then.
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Old 03-07-2015, 05:27 PM   #35
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My oh my...some things never change.

Cut the AUX some Slack.
Rather than my formerly long winded posts, here it is in a few nutshells:

1) Free labor, fuel cost only floating assets, people willing to risk it all to do the grunt work that most of the active and reserve don't want to do.
We used to have a couple of them that would drop by the station to lend a hand with maintenance issues of both fixed and floating asset. All for a hand shake and a thank you, and maybe an invitation to the next station party/picnic/cook out.

2) The uniforms are similar to the regular/reserve as are those worn by the USAF AUX, aka: CAP (senior and Junior Squadrons).

3) Many of these folks are retired professionals, successful business people, cops (yes cops), firefighters, teachers/professors, doctors, etc., who volunteer their otherwise FAMILY TIME and assets to assist the coast guard and total strangers, and bring to the table a ton of experience.

4) I'm sorry, but I don't see them as problems. We had the occasional overzealous types, but we had them in the Coast Guard as well.
Usually a conversation took care of the problem. No reason to lose your mind as the Chief apparently did.

5) Finally, both of these organizations have in the very distance past, been used in "homeland security" support missions, long before "Homeland Security" was ever "conceived" (a case for the morning after pill if I've ever seen one!).

Frankly, I'm pretty happy having them around.
Thanks for those that serve the safety of the maritime community, in any capacity.

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Old 03-07-2015, 06:25 PM   #36
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I read the part about the Coast Guard personnel not being considered "real" LEOS, and about spewed my water

That's an issue that's been going on as long as I've been in/around law enforcement. The State looked down on the County, the County looked down on the City, Everybody joked about the University Cops, and everyone thought their willy was bigger than everyone elses

We used to say there was the State (Highway Patrol), the Sheriff's Office and Brand X (literally everyone else). We considered Game or Marine Patrol officer's "Grouper Troopers", and I actually heard a gym owner who gave local law enforcement a discount on gym fees, say to a trooper "I only give that to "real" cops!"

Looking back, I am embarrassed by the lack of respect and immature attitude everyone displayed. Thankfully, most of us grew up. I'd hate to think that we've de-evolved back to that period

The bottom line is, and we proved this vividly, or better said, had someone prove it to us,during 9-11! Everyone plays a role in law enforcement, and this debacle and abortion we call "Homeland Security."

We all have a job to do, and if we continue looking down our noses on other agencies, continue to withhold information and not communicate with other professionals, then we WILL see it again! And while some still believe otherwise, no one agency can do it all themselves!

Just like the military. While "SEALS" are the buzzword du jour, the fact is, there's a lot that goes into making any mission successful, and a lot of people and different agencies. From the Sea to the center of the country, no one group can do it all themselves!..least I digress...

In this case, I guess the "COP" status of Coast Guard personnel is debatable. I have a very good friend who used to constantly refer to himself as a "Federal Officer." In reality, he's a flight deck safety officer. An armed pilot. And while it's true that he undergoes a lot of the same proficiency training as an Air Marshall, is he really a "cop?" Does he go out every day and do what cops do (whatever that may be-LOL)? The answer of course is no. He's a professional pilot, and frankly, I'd rather have him proficient in that aspect while flying the plane.

To me, it's the same with the Coasties.
They have a Federal responsibility and do their best to fulfill it.
While in their respective lives yes, they are "cops."
Whether some local/state or other federal cop thinks otherwise is immaterial.

I'm sorry to read that some people don't consider them cops. I understand the mentality, but I don't agree with it.

Are they full time street or detective type cops? No.
Yet under federal law, they are still LEO's, as such, they are cops!

They carry firearms and have arrest authority.
They can stop you, search you/your vessel without a warrant (try that on a local level, and let me know how it works out for you?), terminate your voyage, seize your vessel, and put your back side in Federal Prison. Sounds like cop work to me. And when you take down several tons of dope and a boat full of A-holes, then that sounds like cop work to me again!

The facts that most coast guard crews only do police work on a sporadic basis, and that most cops still view them as military personnel much the same as an MP, SP or other military police officer, probably has a something to do with the officers viewpoint. Military and civilian style law enforcement can vary drastically in its application.

And regardless of the training, they're still going to require a good bit of training to do daily, on the road or detective type, police work.

This is not to say they are any less "cop" than anyone else.
When I joined the USCG(r), I was a cop. I remained a cop throughout my tenure there. And while I and the rest of our boat crews generally had more law enforcement experience individually, than most of our active duty crews had collectively, I still had a LOT to learn about maritime/admiralty law enforcement and the way the Coast Guard does things. Some of the things they did made no sense. Some were downright dangerous! Others were squared away and made perfect sense. It just depends on who was in charge that year, and what local policies were in place. Sometimes this could be frustrating and confusing, thus the term Uncle Sam's Confused Group.

But I loved every minute of it, and miss it even today. I was fortunate that my local group (now sector) recognized our LEO's as an asset and utilized us on a district level to train active duty and reserve personnel in various law enforcement related topics, such as firearms, defensive tactics, search and seizure, and officer safety.

So, are they cops?
Yes, very much so. Punch one, and go to Federal Court for Assault on a Federal LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER.

Maybe, if there was more interaction between the Coast Guard and local law enforcement, there would be a better relationship? But for the most part, unless you're a local cop involved with maritime enforcement, your interaction with the CG is going to be relatively minimal.
I know we've had a few FTX's where all agencies involved in port security were involved, and I understand that they went well.

I still have several friends with kids in the CG, and as to the person that can carry his/her weapon anywhere in the US, I will be willing to bet that it's not so much because they're a "Federal Law Enforcement Officer." The Commandant or local command (IIRC) can shut that down at any time.

I would venture that's it's more likely they are covered under HR218 (LEOSA), as amended a few years back to include the Coast Guard, and other military personnel whose job description involved the enforcement of laws, apprehension of criminals and prosecution of cases. This even extended to SP's/MP's and MI personnel, and most would not consider MI personnel "cops" in the conventional term.
It still requires the commands approval if I recall correctly.

LEOSA allows active and honorably retired LEO's, the ability pursuant to proper qualification and annual requalification, to carry concealed firearms anywhere in the US within certain guidelines.

As for the law enforcement authority of the Coast Guard, they once used the term "Smokey's of the Sea."

As for me, I'll still consider them cops!
Semper Paratus baby!
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:03 PM   #37
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I like to think of the USCGAUX as old men with yachts trying to help.
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Old 03-09-2015, 11:36 AM   #38
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I like to think of the USCGAUX as old men with yachts trying to help.

Yep!!!
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Old 03-09-2015, 12:02 PM   #39
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I like to think of the USCGAUX as old men with yachts trying to help.
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Yep!!!
I have to say besides I am amazed at some of the conclusions expressed here, absent any facts.

I would say that my flotilla, 0140503, was pretty much the same age curve as TF, BUT perhaps a bit younger. yes, younger.

the Aux attracts a lot of young people who want to help, but don't or can't go active duty. Some eventually do join the USN or USCG, many join the Aux after their tour in the military, all branches. We had teenagers, with the majority between 20 and 45 years old. The over 60 crowd, like myself, were in a definite minority.

Why, because they want to help.

At least in Sector NY, the gold side as we called the USCG appreciated our efforts and our patrols. With all the BS about terrorism, how many small patrol boats do you think the USCG has out at any given time? Far less than you can imagine. This basically means, that for the poor boater who runs of fuel, or some other mishap, that he/she needs help, the Aux will probably be there before anyone else.

There is even an aviation section that supports off shore patrols.

Lastly, Thank you OFF DUTY for trying to set the picture straight.
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Old 03-09-2015, 12:58 PM   #40
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Maybe not.

But on that stormy night, its going to be the United States Coast Guard standing between you and the darkest of times. When your voice comes in over the radio, afraid, and cold, with no hope at all, it will be the members of the United States Coast Guard that will risk their lives to save yours. It doesn't matter how stormy it is. It doesn't matter how dangerous it is. If they can hear you, they will come.
This is generally true, although there are qualifications. For example, if an air station is called to send a helicopter because a Coast Guard boat can't reach the scene in a timely manner, and severe icing exists that is beyond the approved capability of the aircraft, the air station senior duty officer will not allow the crew to launch. Suicide missions are not part of the "code". Of course a fixed wing aircraft with icing protection might be sent, or a boat...but they're often hours from the incident. That said, helicopter crews often encounter unforecast and "challenging" meteorological conditions en route and keep going once launched. The same logic is applied in the boating community...some sort of asset will be dispatched, but what it is and from where, does have some logic and safety assessment associated with the decision to launch.

This management level oversight is what is often missing in the civilian helicopter "Life Flight" type rescue operations and is largely responsible for pointless accidents that kill the patient (and crew) while in the process of saving him/her.
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