NDZ in Puget Sound?

[BruceK]

What about fish? They could use diapers. Fitted and changed, by the elected representatives who enact these requirements.

 

[markpierce]

In my jurisdiction, a significant portion of the property tax (on real estate and boats) is for sewage service. Thus, the authorities have little excuse not to provide facilities to dispose of a boat's black water.

 

[Wxx3]

Not exactly Puget Sound, but last Sunday a power outage caused raw sewage to be pumped into Lake Washington for 20 minutes. I wonder how many holding tanks that equals?

About a million

 

[Wxx3]

NDZS are laughable when the most popular system has repeatedly shown it cleans the water of bacteria better than what it takes in.

Sure there are solids...but in the big scheme of things...gimme a break.

It makes sense to penalize people who spend a bundle to help things while glossing over the real problems.

As you and Hollywood have pointed out, these are minor issues in the scheme of things.
The reality is this is all a big distraction to keep people focused on this minor stuff with no real understanding of the science or what is really going on.

This "debate" is no different than the idea that by removing dams in Washington State, the salmon stocks will come back to some level in the past.
Sure they will.
Just like more pump out stations will make your water cleaner.

Just take an envelope, put money into it and send to some poor guy in Nigeria, as he probably needs it more.

Oh, and don't look at the amount of plastic that is produced, consumed and ends up inthe ocean every single day.
Or the fact that fish stocks continue to decline and vast speicies have been totally fished out and have not recovered.

Yes, just keep patting yourself ont he back every time you flush.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Turning a bay or sound into a NDZ has absolutely no affect on pollution within said bay or sound until the cities dumping sewage into same bay or sound are brought under control.

 

[hollywood8118]

As you and Hollywood have pointed out, these are minor issues in the scheme of things.
The reality is this is all a big distraction to keep people focused on this minor stuff with no real understanding of the science or what is really going on.

This "debate" is no different than the idea that by removing dams in Washington State, the salmon stocks will come back to some level in the past.
Sure they will.
Just like more pump out stations will make your water cleaner.

Just take an envelope, put money into it and send to some poor guy in Nigeria, as he probably needs it more.

Oh, and don't look at the amount of plastic that is produced, consumed and ends up inthe ocean every single day.
Or the fact that fish stocks continue to decline and vast speicies have been totally fished out and have not recovered.

Yes, just keep patting yourself ont he back every time you flush.

So I reread this post and still cannot figure out where you were going by the end...

As a cruiser you have not choice but to dump your holding tank overboard... EVERYBODY that is a cruiser dumps overboard.
Do I dump directly overboard into my marina.. nope.. but in the open areas of P.S.... you bet. I think a lot of us here feel that we should not be made the target of the hour and look at the BIG polluters first. Look at it another way.. In Puget sound the largest polluter is one entity.. Seattle sewer. how easy should it be to regulate the ONE entity vs all the boats?? and what would be the cost to police one sewer plant vs ALL the boats in the PNW?
HOLLYWOOD

 

[rwidman]

The NDZ in Puget Sound IS a political topic

Exactly. It is political because it is politicians that create these zones. It is politicians who make all the laws and rules affecting boating and boaters.

 

[rwidman]

So I leave Seattle for the San Juans. My poop tank is full because the pumpouts are out of service. How are they going to know that you pulled the handle and dumped overboard?


There is a place in California that requires a person to board your boat once you enter the bay to deposit a special dye tablet into your holding tank. If you dump overboard, they can trace it.....

How do they trace it to your boat? Different color for each boat? Special chemicals with tracers?

So you poop in a bucket and dump it overboard. How do they stop or identify that?

Make the pumpout stations, convenient and free and people will use them. Make them $20.00 and hard to get to and they won't. Cities are dumping raw sewage into the water and birds and fish are pooping in the water. They aren't getting fined.

Governments are getting carried away with regulating the public.

 

[ancora]

After you have tied up on a mooring in Avalon Harbor, Catalina, a water cop comes aboard and puts powdered dye into each head. When contacted with water, the die gives off a bright yellow-green color. If one gets caught dumping in the harbor you get banned for one full year.

 

[rwidman]

After you have tied up on a mooring in Avalon Harbor, Catalina, a water cop comes aboard and puts powdered dye into each head. When contacted with water, the die gives off a bright yellow-green color. If one gets caught dumping in the harbor you get banned for one full year.

If someone is watching when you pump. Not at night or if nobody is watching. Also, how do you get banned? Aren't there federal laws about navigable waters?

 

[dhays]

Turning a bay or sound into a NDZ has absolutely no affect on pollution within said bay or sound until the cities dumping sewage into same bay or sound are brought under control.

Do I dump directly overboard into my marina.. nope.. but in the open areas of P.S.... you bet. I think a lot of us here feel that we should not be made the target of the hour and look at the BIG polluters first. Look at it another way.. In Puget sound the largest polluter is one entity.. Seattle sewer. how easy should it be to regulate the ONE entity vs all the boats?? and what would be the cost to police one sewer plant vs ALL the boats in the PNW?
HOLLYWOOD

I agree that making Puget Sound a NDZ will have no effect, regardless of what they do with the municipal discharges or leaking septic systems.

However, I do disagree with Hollywood. Dumping raw sewage into Puget Sound is unnecessary. Sure it is more convenient than using a pumpout facility, but it is a small inconvenience. Most of the time, there is a working pumpout within an hour of most Puget Sound boaters. With just a little planning, they can be used on the way to another location. Just because Seattle can't get there **** together, doesn't mean we shouldn't take appropriate steps to take care of our own ****.

 

[hollywood8118]

I agree that making Puget Sound a NDZ will have no effect, regardless of what they do with the municipal discharges or leaking septic systems.

However, I do disagree with Hollywood. Dumping raw sewage into Puget Sound is unnecessary. Sure it is more convenient than using a pumpout facility, but it is a small inconvenience. Most of the time, there is a working pumpout within an hour of most Puget Sound boaters. With just a little planning, they can be used on the way to another location. Just because Seattle can't get there **** together, doesn't mean we shouldn't take appropriate steps to take care of our own ****.

99% of the time I use my own boat I head north across the straights.. I feel totally fine pumping between the San Juans and Pt Wilson.. my **** can get mixed with Victoria's and voila!... instant international poo. There are places to make a enviro stand.. I just think the state of Washington needs to use their resources to stop THE BIGGEST single polluter first.

Also to be totally clear.. most of Puget Sound is already legally a no discharge zone if one follows the rules as currently written...

"To be clear, it is ILLEGAL to discharge UNTREATED sewage on inland waters and within 3 miles of shore."

Most of Puget sounds falls into this category already. How much more is it going to cost us boaters for the state to police our poo vs. just starting by fixing Seattle's issue ( not even mentioning our poo dumping brothers to the North)??

Remember with regulation typically follows a regulating body... I vote for calling them the " Brown Water Police "

Only in areas with significant flushing action do I feel comfortable pumping the pooper.. I do pull crab from the local waters and feel that there are acceptable and unacceptable places to dump
HOLLYWOOD

 

[dhays]

Hollywood, as the proposed NDZ, you and I are completely on the same page. I am well aware of the current rules as well as the proposed rules. I don't have a treatment system although I have considered one for years. I find it beyond silly that the State is considering an NDZ in the Sound.

I also don't have an issue with you discharging on an ebb tide out in the Strait. Yeah it is technically illegal but it doesn't bother me any. You would have to poop a lot to compete with Victoria.

I do have issues with those boaters who discharge in Puget Sound simply because they don't want to be bothered to use a pumpout station. We know there are plenty of boaters that fall into that category.

 

[78puget-trawler]

I grew up on a houseboat on Lake Union in Seattle in the 50's and 60's, finally moved ashore around '69 I think. Back then all sewage from all over went into the lake, not just the houseboats. Eventually they did build sewer plants but the houseboats didn't have to hook up till later. I remember my dad screaming bloody murder at the cost, about $600 or so to hook up. He had a cow. We kids of course swam in that lake all summer long for years and thought very little of the various items found in the water while swimming along. No big. In fact we thought it was kind of fun to go look under the deck of the houseboat when someone flushed the toilet! Honestly we never gave it all that much thought, and I think the state is giving it waaaaay too much thought now where pleasure boats are concerned.

 

[hollywood8118]

Hollywood, as the proposed NDZ, you and I are completely on the same page. I am well aware of the current rules as well as the proposed rules. I don't have a treatment system although I have considered one for years. I find it beyond silly that the State is considering an NDZ in the Sound.

I also don't have an issue with you discharging on an ebb tide out in the Strait. Yeah it is technically illegal but it doesn't bother me any. You would have to poop a lot to compete with Victoria.

I do have issues with those boaters who discharge in Puget Sound simply because they don't want to be bothered to use a pumpout station. We know there are plenty of boaters that fall into that category.

I feel fortunate, my current boat has almost 100g black tank and my marina has pump out connections spread throughout the marina and the nearest is two slips away.. I dont even need to move the boat to pump.
But is does seem to be a issue when one goes North.. pump outs appear to be way less common.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[dhays]

I feel fortunate, my current boat has almost 100g black tank and my marina has pump out connections spread throughout the marina and the nearest is two slips away.. I dont even need to move the boat to pump.
But is does seem to be a issue when one goes North.. pump outs appear to be way less common.
HOLLYWOOD

It had been so long since I had discharged overboard that I admit feeling very odd about it when I did in BC. I kept looking for a pumpout but there were none to be had. Fortunately, there were some major waterways we could legally discharge there.

 

[BruceK]

One of the marinas in Brooklyn (north of Sydney) on the Hawkesbury, has a number of hire houseboats. When Brooklyn acquired sewerage a few years back(it was all septic tanks before) and a sewerage processing plant, the marina installed pump outs along the marina to service the houseboats. How easy would it be if marinas had a pump out connection near every slip/pen?
How well the sewerage processing plant at Brooklyn copes is moot. Recently I saw unwelcome material in the anchorage which accommodates 5 marinas. To be fair, it could come from anywhere, but heavy rain in Sydney always means sewage overflow into the harbour, so why not at Brooklyn.

 

[sdowney717]

Common sense about the facts should educate people that for example a Lectrasan regarding bacteria treats the water so that it's cleaner coming out than going in, and one dump is equal to 4 oak leaves in nutrient value.

Is the NDZ a matter of government control over the people?
What about their own governmental discharges?
The 'sustainable development' agenda of the UN is an evil LIE.
We need to depopulate the UN to zero. One way is for the US to stop giving them lots of money, those USA haters and despisers .

 

[Bacchus]

I have no idea what the pump out situation is in WA but have to believe the comments, however...
Dumping is not the answer.
I'd suggest that if everyone spent the time ranting sending letters, emails or calling BoatUS, legislators, etc you'd greatly improve your odds of improving the situation.
I don't think many dirt home owners would appreciate an EVer dumping their golfing with the tanks in your neighborhood when they couldn't find a dump station!

 

[danderer]

Governments are getting carried away with regulating the public.

But didn't you say in another thread:

I would like to see laws in place requiring proof of liability insurance before a boat could be registered or documented.

Not to pick on Wes but most folks hate government regulation--unless it is a regulation they like.

We might want to be a bit more nuanced in our discussions.

 

[Bacchus]

How about a reg that required anyone selling fuel on the water to have a working pumpout...doesnt work can't pump fuel?

 

[psneeld]

I think rants come from reasonable people when unreasonable laws affect them.

If a hurricane goes through, it take over a year sometimes to get pumpout stations working again. What are boaters to do?

But if that same hurricane takes out the local sewage treatmentbplsnt, does the government say wait till it becomes fully operational till the local homes can be occupied?

And I could care less about the raw sewage debate as I paid the money up front for a type 1 MSD.

Now they want to make me spend more money in more places because dirt dwellers don't like me helping to clean up their waterways from bacteria and trash, etc.

I guarantee more bacteria and solids come out of boaters sinks and shower sums than my electroscan MSD.

There have been rants to the politicians for years but the dirt dwellers win and huge NDZ in silly resort areas are approved and yet sensitive areas are bypassed.

So I rant whenever and where ever the topic is discussed, but to politicians it is like a mosquito...as most boaters don't have type - MSDS and either pumpout or break the law much of the time.

The handful that try the hardest get zonked.

 

[sdowney717]

It is a matter of control and trust, the government does not trust boaters, and wants total control, really does not trust the general public, yet they have shown their incompetence and malfeasance is far greater than ours, the common man, especially regarding common sense.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So you poop in a bucket and dump it overboard. How do they stop or identify that?

Taking a dump in a bucket or over the side is perfectly legal.....sad but true.

 

[psneeld]

Taking a dump in a bucket or over the side is perfectly legal.....sad but true.

Pretty sure it is not.....

If you went directly over the side yes, but any containment is like pumping a holding tank....such as into the bucket then over the side.

I can't be sure as once the discussion gets this far rediculous, usually my better senses have left the discussion long ago....

But every once and awhile.....

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Pretty much what a Washington ecology and DNR officials told me.....


When I say using a bucket, I mean dump it overboard after use. Have you ever peed in a bucket and dumped it overboard or peed off the back of your fishing boat?

 

[hollywood8118]

using the washington legal msd.....

HOLLYWOOD

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

It shows how ridiculous a NDZ in Puget Sound is. Boaters are not a significant source of solid waste in Puget sound. It's a feel good regulation with not scientific proof.

 

[dhays]

It shows how ridiculous a NDZ in Puget Sound is. Boaters are not a significant source of solid waste in Puget sound. It's a feel good regulation with not scientific proof.

And as Hollywood pointed out, is it already illegal to dump untreated waste into Puget Sound. The proposed NDZ would only affect those with MSD treatment systems such as the Lectrasan or Purasan. That is a vanishingly small number of recreational boats and the treatment systems used on those boats is very effective.

Some of the commercial boats have older systems that aren't nearly as effective, but not so the recreational boats.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

And as Hollywood pointed out, is it already illegal to dump untreated waste into Puget Sound. The proposed NDZ would only affect those with MSD treatment systems such as the Lectrasan or Purasan. That is a vanishingly small number of recreational boats and the treatment systems used on those boats is very effective.

Some of the commercial boats have older systems that aren't nearly as effective, but not so the recreational boats.

Good point. so why create the NDZ in the first place? Feel good regulations......targeted at the recreational boater...