Had you paid Georgia sales tax?
Florida out-of-state reciprocity
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Had you paid Georgia sales tax?
6% state, up to 2% municipalities, maximum on a boat is $18k.
An interesting twist, the maximum sales tax on a repair on a boat is not the $18k, but $60k.
When we registered Hobo in Florida (2 years ago), no additional tax was due since we had satisfied the taxing jurisdiction where Hobo was from. We did supply copies of our WA State drivers licenses and Hobo's vessel documentation (Alaska). We did have a professional handle the registration for us.
We registered one boat in Florida 6 months before it ever saw Florida. We were happy to pay Florida's $18k vs. unlimited amounts elsewhere.
Of course not. Nor South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, or New York. Moving a boat to Florida, even after 6 months, requires you to pay the difference in sales tax up to the Florida cap of $18,000. For a bunch of reasons, we didn't have to pay sales tax at the purchase. That's no different than had we purchased it in Delaware.
Not unique in that regard. That's the way many states laws read.
twistedtree
Guru
I'm enroute out of Washington to Canada for exactly this reason. Washington's rules are massively unclear for anything by the simplest scenario, and the use tax is 10% of current market value. I have made great efforts to comply with the exemptions, and believe I have done so correctly. But every time I ask someone at the DOR, I get a different answer. And everyone I know who asks get different answers from the one I got. Depending on who you listen to, I am either in compliance, or not in compliance. Given the $$ at stake, I just can't play the guessing game, so I'm outa here before my visitor permits (which I don't even thing I need) expire.
Nobody wins. WA doesn't get any revenue. WA marine companies stop getting my money. WA stops getting sales tax on the marine and other spending I do in WA. And I have to leave a state that I otherwise really like and would like to stay longer.
I wrote a short paper for some concerned friends in the WA marine industry outlining all the contradictions and ambiguities that I encountered. They are consistently losing business to Canada because of this. The paper ended up being 7 pages long, and that only covered US registered non-resident boats/owners. There are other rules for foreign flagged boats that a friend is struggling with that would probably add another couple of pages. And even more different rules for non-residents who buy boats in WA.
Nobody wins. WA doesn't get any revenue. WA marine companies stop getting my money. WA stops getting sales tax on the marine and other spending I do in WA. And I have to leave a state that I otherwise really like and would like to stay longer.
I wrote a short paper for some concerned friends in the WA marine industry outlining all the contradictions and ambiguities that I encountered. They are consistently losing business to Canada because of this. The paper ended up being 7 pages long, and that only covered US registered non-resident boats/owners. There are other rules for foreign flagged boats that a friend is struggling with that would probably add another couple of pages. And even more different rules for non-residents who buy boats in WA.
Find a documentation agent in the area familiar with the situation and they might have an answer for you.
I'm assuming you've never paid sales tax on it in any state either?
We purchased in WA but registered and paid sales tax in FL and didn't spend over 60 days in WA.
Establishing the limit of $18,000 was a huge move for FL. Kept a lot of megayachts from flagging foreign.
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twistedtree
Guru
Right, no taxes paid anywhere yet. And like many other states, WA wants the difference between what you have paid elsewhere and what's due in WA.
I could ask a doc agent, and a number of people have suggested various attorneys. My feeling is that if I need an attorney to visit a state, that's all the reason I need to not visit. And if the DOR can't give a consistent answer, I'm not sure what value a doc agent's view would be since at the end of the day it's the DOR who I'd be fighting.
Your scenario is one of the straight forward ones. Were it gets complicated is when you come and go over the course of multiple years, crossing the 365 day boundary, use your 60 visitor days, repair affidavits, and visitor extension permits. The interaction between all those allowances is the thing of nightmares. People can't even agree whether the various permits run for 60 consecutive calendar days, or 60 days of use in Washington, i.e. the clock stops if you leave the state. The state treats the first 60 days one way, and the renewal permits the other way. It makes a big difference. The the actual language in the law is the same for both permits, so you would expect them to operate the same way. But the DOR doesn't, yet a friend got a binding determination from the DOR that directly contradicted what everyone else at DOR has told me and others.
And does the clock stop on any of those permits when you enter into a repair affidavit? The answer would appear to be different for the different permits, but yet another friend got a binding determination that said the opposite.
The bottom line is that I can't confidently comply with the rules, and with 10% at stake, I have no choice but to vamoose.
How have you gone all this time without ever paying sales or use tax on it? I would have thought at some point you would have been required to. Has it ever been registered in any state?
Actually, I attribute the entire problem to having states. If we just had one system nationwide so many things would be easier, but no one ever going for that. We've had to watch these time limits in many states. I feel fortunate that the state we live in is very favorable to boaters. Had it not been though we would have had no choice but just pay the taxes. I was shocked when I found out there were no property taxes on boats here and the limit on sales tax.
twistedtree
Guru
I took delivery off shore, and have not been in any state long enough to trigger sales/use tax. The boat is documented with mass (my residence state) as homeport, and Mass doesn't require registration of documented boats. And it isn't subject to Mass use tax unless I bring it into the state, which I have no plans to do.
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psneeld
Guru
I know many here know most of this already so it's what I have learned passing along to prospective buyers and even old timers who really have never been in a situation to realize registration has little to do with sales tax.
Registration and taxation are 2 different things usually.
Many states often just use the Division of Motor Vehicles as the arm to collect the tax...but they aren't the ones who enforce the actual law.
In states where you don't have to register because of documentation, you don't trigger the taxation rules, plus the fact the boat isn't in the state.
But if you trigger registration in another state, they will usually apply their trigger and taxation to you.
Seems like many states will require the difference from one state to the other. (difference actually paid so far and their own).
Like I posted before, I have read a tax case where a mega yacht that passed through NJ waters and remained just 1 night wound up paying the full NJ 6%.
Registration and taxation are 2 different things usually.
Many states often just use the Division of Motor Vehicles as the arm to collect the tax...but they aren't the ones who enforce the actual law.
In states where you don't have to register because of documentation, you don't trigger the taxation rules, plus the fact the boat isn't in the state.
But if you trigger registration in another state, they will usually apply their trigger and taxation to you.
Seems like many states will require the difference from one state to the other. (difference actually paid so far and their own).
Like I posted before, I have read a tax case where a mega yacht that passed through NJ waters and remained just 1 night wound up paying the full NJ 6%.
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Donsan
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The registration/taxation rules for boats aren't much different than they are for cars and trucks. Keep a car in a given state for more than X number of days and the law says you have to register it in that state.
Going back to cruising Florida, if your boat is registered in another state, you can cruise FL for X number of days. My state doesn't require (and will not allow) registration if it is Federally documented. That seems to put me in a pickle as far as cruising FL for a month or two. I've done it before with no problems but I'm planning on going again. I hope being there doesn't become an issue.
On a similar issue, what about boats registered or not registered but documented in other countries? Do they have to do anything special to be in FL for a month or two?
Going back to cruising Florida, if your boat is registered in another state, you can cruise FL for X number of days. My state doesn't require (and will not allow) registration if it is Federally documented. That seems to put me in a pickle as far as cruising FL for a month or two. I've done it before with no problems but I'm planning on going again. I hope being there doesn't become an issue.
On a similar issue, what about boats registered or not registered but documented in other countries? Do they have to do anything special to be in FL for a month or two?
NEVER, EVER, counsel others to break the law! Especially on a public forum, where anyone, including the authority responsible for enforcing that law, can see your advice, and can find out who and where you are.
Even if you think that law is trivial, or wrong.
Just my $.02Can
Wes K
For boats registered in foreign countries you will need a Cruising License better known as a cruising permit from US Customs that will allow you to cruise in the US for a year with no taxes due. However you cannot offer the boat for sale in the US which is why you will see on many listings the statement "not for sale to US residents while in US waters."
For boats registered in foreign countries you will need a Cruising License better known as a cruising permit from US Customs that will allow you to cruise in the US for a year with no taxes due. However you cannot offer the boat for sale in the US which is why you will see on many listings the statement "not for sale to US residents while in US waters."
Thanks. I always wondered about that statement.
Now, on to my issue. Or potential issue.
What is your primary state of use? Then what is next highest in use?
The reason that a lot of the authorities don't know anything about the sojourner permits is because you will not find the word "sojourner" anywhere in any Florida State statute, nor on any official Florida State forms (although some counties do still use the word on their websites). The form that is now used -- since Dec. of 2015 -- is HSMV 67244 (Rev 11/11). It can be found here: http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/forms/btr/87244.pdf
The Florida statute with all of the details to this is number 328 and can be found here: Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine
The wording now used by the State of Florida is "temporary certificate of registration." The form that is used is titled "Application to Register Non-Titled Vessels." Refer to this form and they will probably be able to figure out what you are talking about.
More information on Florida vessel registration can be found here: https://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/faqboat.html
The Florida statute with all of the details to this is number 328 and can be found here: Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine
The wording now used by the State of Florida is "temporary certificate of registration." The form that is used is titled "Application to Register Non-Titled Vessels." Refer to this form and they will probably be able to figure out what you are talking about.
More information on Florida vessel registration can be found here: https://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/faqboat.html
South Carolina. No registration for documented boats.
Next highest use? That doesn't seem to apply. I'll go north or south on the AICW, then turn around and come back home. NC, VA, MD or GA and FL. I'm planning on NJ and NY next year.
Agreed completely. It's only at 90 days that it changes per my understanding. At 90 days I think you have to file with FL and if you are registered elsewhere give them the information, but if you don't have numbers, they'll give you numbers. I think for 90 days though you're covered.
The popular run in South Florida to start a clock over is to Bimini.
twistedtree
Guru
I agree they are different, but as you say it's quite common to use registration as the trigger for taxation, and/or the collection mechanism. I think in all the sates I've dealt with, to register you need to pay sales/use tax, or show you have paid it somewhere else. In WA it's the requirement to register that triggers taxes.
A states use various other techniques to push the enforcement burden onto other people. For example, in Mass, to get a mooring permit you need to show that you have a valid registration. The state then checks the documented boats to be sure they have paid. And I think there have been attempts to force marinas to report who has leased what slips.
psneeld
Guru
While true that registration may trigger the request for tax money, just the right parameters justify paying those taxes.
As others have said getting g away with it is one thing, but once caught, you are at a disadvantage of not being the initiator.
As others have said getting g away with it is one thing, but once caught, you are at a disadvantage of not being the initiator.
Wifey B: We can all get away with lots of things.....until we get caught. It just seems a lot easier to do it right to start with and if you can't figure it all out, turn to someone who knows. And don't listen to those who tell you to do it, you won't get caught, unless they're willing to pay all fines and expenses you incur if you get caught. Easy sometimes to tell others to be daring.
twistedtree
Guru
I don't think the comment is directed at me, but in my case I don't think I'm "getting away" with anything. It's all 100% legal and just following the rules and provisions for the various states. I agree with others that "cheating" just isn't worth it. But taking advantage of legal provisions makes good sense.
Wifey B: Not directed at you as you're in a unique situation. Just a general statement. Now, some day you're going to have to do something somewhere but who knows when or what. I'm glad ours is simple but it does come into play sometimes. You cruise a lot and you end up having to know the rules of every state and country.
twistedtree
Guru
Wifey B: Not directed at you as you're in a unique situation. Just a general statement. Now, some day you're going to have to do something somewhere but who knows when or what. I'm glad ours is simple but it does come into play sometimes. You cruise a lot and you end up having to know the rules of every state and country.
I'll have to pay up when/if I drop anchor on an extended basis. But even then, it depends on the state. Some, like WA, want taxes on current value regardless of how long you have owned the boat. Others only collect if you have owned the boat for less than some threshold amount of time. And others have no tax at all.
I think Florida's capped tax is very smart. If WA had that, I'd be first in line to write them a check just to take the issue off the table. And there would be a line behind me of a lot of other boat owners I know ready to write checks too. And all our moorage and service business would move back to WA.
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