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Old 08-20-2012, 12:34 AM   #21
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Scary-big job, I think you will find it gets bigger every day-just the nature of old wooden boats. I sued to rebuild old Trumpy's on the East Coast many years ago. One thing you can do to help the dry out problem is to keep water in the bilge while on the hard. Can help keep the planks from shrinking. When you splash her, plan on having a big gas driven pump on baord and ready to start! Also, while she is out, I would recommend doing spot checks on the fasteners all over the hull. Better to find out now if a major refastening is needed. The last Trumpy we did was 85', with double planked 1" planks on 16" white oak frames. Had close to 72,000 screws to replace. But, once you are done, she will be beautiful.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:25 AM   #22
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72'000 screws at 68 cents apiece.

Your right is is getting bigger, where does it stop.
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Old 08-22-2012, 09:39 AM   #23
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Your right is is getting bigger, where does it stop.
If you're lucky, before your wallet becomes too thin.

Amazing job. I'd love to get involved in a project like that to learn some old school techniques. Thanks for posting pictures.
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Old 08-22-2012, 10:08 AM   #24
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Nice photos great idea on trying to keep her wet. Show the finished product !
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:25 PM   #25
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Scary-Welcome to the Wonderful World of Wooden Boat Repair! Does look like you are committed to doing it right though. Keep us posted, it will be iinteresting to see the job progress (have faith, it will progress eventually!). It will look great and be a sound hull when you finish.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:39 AM   #26
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A shipwright I know applies what he calls the "rule of 5" to wooden boat rot repair; there is usually 5 times the rot you see before starting work. Your job seems to bear that out. Courage! It`s a lovely boat well worth the effort. BruceK
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:02 AM   #27
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Work continues

Rule of five seems to be about right. it's really tempting to cut corners and leave a little cancer behind. But just like cancer the rot will come back. I'm a little disappointed in the way ChrisCraft set up conditions that lead to the failures on this boat. this is the second repair for the same problem originating at the cap rail. The inner gunnel in this case is only protected by the varnish beteen the cap rail and the outer gunnel. Once the vanish cracks, deck moisture migrated down into the unprotected inner gunnel and lower into the planking, also the transom planking again was subject to moisture from the deck as the decking is finnished flush with a butt joint again protected only by deck caulking which always fails at some point. Again the step out at the transom creating a ledge for water intrusion was again only protected by caulking and paint. The average owner would never understand the importance of maintaining these points against water intrusion. Another condition leading to the failure this time was the previous repair that didn't understand the problem and did a less than thorough repair, trying to do only what was necessary to get the boat back looking good without addressing the cause of the damage. At this point we are working on a solution, possibly sealing the inner gunnel with epoxy and the use copper flashing hidden under the cap rail and bedded in Sinkaflex. Because of the design it will be hard to resolve with out pulling the caprail. I 'll post more pictures as progress continues, right now we are still removing planks from the Starboard side. the ever chearfull yard manager noted that the last Chris the refastened the screws came to over $20.000. .68 cents a piece. We've already purchased a thousand screws.
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Old 08-23-2012, 07:12 PM   #28
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Rule of five seems to be about right. it's really tempting to cut corners and leave a little cancer behind. But just like cancer the rot will come back. I'm a little disappointed in the way ChrisCraft set up conditions that lead to the failures on this boat. this is the second repair for the same problem originating at the cap rail. The inner gunnel in this case is only protected by the varnish beteen the cap rail and the outer gunnel. Once the vanish cracks, deck moisture migrated down into the unprotected inner gunnel and lower into the planking, also the transom planking again was subject to moisture from the deck as the decking is finnished flush with a butt joint again protected only by deck caulking which always fails at some point. Again the step out at the transom creating a ledge for water intrusion was again only protected by caulking and paint. The average owner would never understand the importance of maintaining these points against water intrusion. Another condition leading to the failure this time was the previous repair that didn't understand the problem and did a less than thorough repair, trying to do only what was necessary to get the boat back looking good without addressing the cause of the damage. At this point we are working on a solution, possibly sealing the inner gunnel with epoxy and the use copper flashing hidden under the cap rail and bedded in Sinkaflex. Because of the design it will be hard to resolve with out pulling the caprail. I 'll post more pictures as progress continues, right now we are still removing planks from the Starboard side. the ever chearfull yard manager noted that the last Chris the refastened the screws came to over $20.000. .68 cents a piece. We've already purchased a thousand screws.
Scary – BIG Freaking OUCH on the CC’s rot progression. Back in my earlier days (1960’s / 70’s) for years on end I helped accomplish projects similar to yours; working with shipwrights in New England boat yards. I know where this is going and hope to helllll you can locate an end to the rot progression. Just cause you can’t see or feel it it does not mean living rot spores have not already impregnated adjacent wood areas. When we checked the rest of boats’ areas we would often locate items not previously noticeable where rot hat taken a firm hold, and wood was about to turn soft or already had. Paint hides rot real well until major damage is done. Even a little rot into untreated wood would resume progression once any moisture becomes present... that included condensation. Decades past, “Cuprinol Wood Preservative” was our preferred product for maintaining and rebuilding boats while halting rot’s progression: http://cuprinol.trade-decorating.co.uk/products/preservers.jsp. The only disturbing thing back then about Cup was its pungent, lingering odor... that has been remedied today, I believe. And, there are other good liquid anti rot wood preservatives on the market now. We would actually soak the new to be installed wood in the Cuprinol before installation and we would well coat all of the to be left remaining adjacent wood areas with Cup. I never saw a treated piece of wood begin to rot again. My dad used Cuprinol liquid rot treatment throughout his wooden boats... they remained rot free... I know; it was my job to help him maintain them! If seam cracks appeared on the decks, salon window frames, toe rails, transom and other locations it was my job to pressure inject Cup via a specialized turkey baster that had a reduced i.d. ejection end. That was done before rot got hold and took an area over. It worked!

Here’s an interesting side note for Eric and Marin... if they read this post: I’m actually entertaining the prospect of purchasing a cool looking classic wooden boat to dock near our home, for use on SF Bay. May do sea trials next week. See, I am salvageable to play with old wood-boats! LOL
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:52 PM   #29
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Thanks for the advice on Cuprinal

We've used Cuprinal for years with mixed results. Again what are you going to do. After a week and a half I am just now starting to cut replacement pieces. I was able to find some spectacular 4/4 Philippine mahogany 12" to 18" wide and 18' long. Some of the repair will be done with penetrating epoxy. Small areas under the aft deck at the transom. The decking is in good shape. I'm making new frames for the corners of the transom and replacing most of the exposed battens. Cuprinal will be used on everything we can get to as well bilge coat to match the original ChrisCraft bilge coating. The dry rotted areas were repeats of areas rotted before and left unprotected. I hope if we can keep this boat dry it will be years before this happens again. Just as a side note the draping of the boat with wet cotton tarps has worked extremely well and will save us hours and hours of bottom work. We have very hot and dry weather and so far so good. I wish I could say this was a original idea but I saw it done years ago with burlap stapled to the wooden hull and kept wet with a soaker hose. The yard is impressed none the less.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:30 AM   #30
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After a week and a half I am just now starting to cut replacement pieces. I was able to find some spectacular 4/4 Philippine mahogany 12" to 18" wide and 18' long.
Boatgm, owner builder of "Carabao"(Tagalog for water buffalo)will be impressed with the Philippines mahogany timber choice(see his post under "Homebuilt").
Sounds like you are on the home run,shaping timber to put her back together.Must be a relief.
Those thousands of screws,are they s/steel, or silicon bronze or ...BruceK
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Old 08-25-2012, 12:06 AM   #31
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Silicon Bronze

[QUOTE=BruceK;100159]Boatgm, owner builder of "Carabao"(Tagalog for water buffalo)will be impressed with the Philippines mahogany timber choice(see his post under "Homebuilt").
Sounds like you are on the home run,shaping timber to put her back together.Must be a relief.
Those thousands of screws,are they s/steel, or silicon bronze or ...BruceK[/QUO
Tough couple of days, The silicon bronze screw god decided to test us. On the starboard side of the boat the number ten 1-3/4 screws stopped cooperating. We had been extracting screws with a Grabit extractor which is a combination drill and easy out in one bit. Screws that we had trouble with were easily removed using this nifty tool. Unfortunately the starboard side stopped cooperating and I had to resort to drilling off the heads of the screws and pulling planks over the top off what ever remained of the screw heads. The planks came off in chunks.
these screws were damaged by what looks like electrolysis. I have never seen this before, the screws were pink and the outer layer peeled off like a nut shell. They looked like the zink had been leached out of them. this is really disturbing as this got worse below the water line. I don't have a clew as to what would cause this. If this is a reaction to bottom paint, how and why. This job may have really gotten hateful. We had a hell of a time getting the screws out of the wood on the hull sides, I don't even want to think about fighting these out under the boat. Anybody ever experienced screws being eaten away like this?
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Old 08-25-2012, 01:54 AM   #32
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[QUOTE=Scary

Tough couple of days, The silicon bronze screw god decided to test us. On the starboard side of the boat the number ten 1-3/4 screws stopped cooperating. We had been extracting screws with a Grabit extractor which is a combination drill and easy out in one bit. Screws that we had trouble with were easily removed using this nifty tool. Unfortunately the starboard side stopped cooperating and I had to resort to drilling off the heads of the screws and pulling planks over the top off what ever remained of the screw heads. The planks came off in chunks.
these screws were damaged by what looks like electrolysis. I have never seen this before, the screws were pink and the outer layer peeled off like a nut shell. They looked like the zink had been leached out of them. this is really disturbing as this got worse below the water line. I don't have a clew as to what would cause this. If this is a reaction to bottom paint, how and why. This job may have really gotten hateful. We had a hell of a time getting the screws out of the wood on the hull sides, I don't even want to think about fighting these out under the boat. Anybody ever experienced screws being eaten away like this?[/QUOTE]

Okay, I’ll put in my 2.5 cents and hope this helps. - - > But, please realize I’m talking about bottom and other location refastening/replanking jobs I assisted shipwrights on in boatyards some 40 +/- years ago; and they were always on boats that were strictly in New England area's Atlantic salt water... none ever having spent time in fresh water, far as I knew. So, my memory may be fuzzy and Atlantic salt is a bit different than Pacific, and, the yacht harbors were usually overcrowded with too many hot leads from 120 v shore power dangling around the water as well as boats not having nearly as good a common ground running throughout the boat to anodes... such as usually is in today’s boats.

The old fasteners we’d remove or “sister fasten” were usually galvanized or bronze. Monel fasteners were scarcely used but lasted very well and if the planks were soft needing replacement the Monels would usually reverse right out for replacement with new. Corroded/rusted galvanized fasteners were the worst to deal with because they would too often be rusted to the point where they would break off at the surface (if we drilled off the head and pried the plank off first). With galve’s, when we did not need to remove an OK plank, we would simply sister fasten and leave the threaded core, shank, and head of the original galve still embedded. Bronze fasteners would corrode somewhat and seem to get skinny. When we could off screw them on a plank that was to remain we would simply drill a bit larger hole in the same hole and screw in a bit larger fastener of the material the boat owner had agreed to pay for. Otherwise we would sister fasten. Few boat owners would use Monel as replacements due to cost. Yankee screw drivers and cut off screw driver shanks tightened into electric drills (often Sears Craftsmen drills) were the usual means of installing new fastenings. The bronze seemed to considerably outlast the galvanized. I do not recall working on boats with stainless fasteners nor installing stainless.

In my opinion the older bronze fasteners needing replacement from loosing their mass to get skinny and loose in their holes were eaten by electrolysis that permeated the berth areas of hot harbors combined with poor maintenance/replacements of zinc anodes. The Chris you are repairing may have been berthed in a hot harbor and not had anodes well maintained regarding the fastener conditions you are experiencing. Not that I well understand it – but – boats with big battery banks can also develop 12 v corrosion on a boats metal parts... unless the boat’s entire battery system can be isolated and separated from the boat’s structure.

Good luck!

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Old 08-25-2012, 04:22 AM   #33
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Scary-I don't think that it is electrolysis, but just normal corrosion from the bronze silicon being in damp wood for a lot years. Even fully bedded and with a sealed bung, the screws get and stay damp. The bronze in the alloy corrodes over time. When we bought and rebuilt old Trumpy's, we always refastened with monel. Expensive, but virtually corrosion proof. We also ran into some of the same problems mentioned where the screw would break off right at the neck and could not be removed. We would drive those down a bit and put a little epoxy filler on top and then drill new holes and sister screw (I am not too sure I like that term!!).

Refadtening is a huge, time consuming and tedious job. There is no easy way to do it. I don't envy you the task.
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Old 08-25-2012, 11:08 AM   #34
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Scary - You have close-up picts of the old, corroded fasteners? Would be interesting to see.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:10 AM   #35
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Scary-I don't think that it is electrolysis, but just normal corrosion from the bronze silicon being in damp wood for a lot years. Even fully bedded and with a sealed bung, the screws get and stay damp. The bronze in the alloy corrodes over time. When we bought and rebuilt old Trumpy's, we always refastened with monel. Expensive, but virtually corrosion proof. We also ran into some of the same problems mentioned where the screw would break off right at the neck and could not be removed. We would drive those down a bit and put a little epoxy filler on top and then drill new holes and sister screw (I am not too sure I like that term!!).

Refadtening is a huge, time consuming and tedious job. There is no easy way to do it. I don't envy you the task.

It sounds like regular corrosion to me as well. I have also seen 40 year old silicon bronze fastenings come out looking like the day they went in. Water will / can enter via the screw area. Usualy leaving a water mark around the fastening on the wood. Water then flows through the plank. I have seen the use of epoxy to dip the new fastenings into prior to being fastened into the hull. Helps keep the screw area water tite. But I have not seen any of these removed after 40 years so YMMV.
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Old 08-28-2012, 12:02 PM   #36
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Scary – Upon closer observation, by enlarging the picture, what I seem to see on the 1st page of this thread in the 1st picture of this Chris’ port side while it’s idling through a water way could be disturbing. It may be, and I hope it is just effects from the light/shadow on the boat... but... from looks of the boot strap and waterline spray/rub rail it appears a hog-back angle may have taken set. I sure hope not for all concerned. Several years ago, for possible purchase, I reviewed a 57’ Chris of same vintage that I found did have this hog-back circumstance at hand. Needless to say, once determined, I quickly squashed that deal. Perhaps you can comment on the condition of the keel and stringers in this boat... They also infected with rot? One reason I’m paying soooo much attention to this extremely descriptive and well pictured thread is that I’m looking at a wood Chris of same general model, size, and year for possible purchase. I really thank you for all you post here... brings back memories and makes me very cautious for thorough checking before I make any moves to own an old Woody, such as a big Chris. - Art
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Old 08-28-2012, 10:40 PM   #37
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Fasteners

look closely at the fasteners. the green layer on the pink screws flakes off and is about .010 of an inch. the green screws are coming out of the same frame above waterline. They are solid and don't show any of the tendency to flake off. Interestingly the aluminum mufflers are strapped to these frames with bronze screws and aluminum straps. The wood contact area is destroyed by electrolysis and we may have to sister the sister frames effected. I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow. The aluminum strapping is mostly destroyed as well. I have seen wood ruined by stray electrical current from poorly grounded" bonded" pumps and motors. this is the first time I've seen it caused by dissimilar metals without electrical connections.
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Old 08-28-2012, 11:19 PM   #38
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Bottom condition after two weeks of heat

The draping of the hull with cotton drop clothes has helped tremendously. The hull has a designed hook that is supposed to hold the boat on plane without tabs. That's what I've been told. We didn't get a chance to run her up on plane as the caulking was streaming out at 8knts. My partner in crime on this repair has skippered this boat for the owner on multiple times and say's she really gets up and scoots. The bottom right at the transom has built in wedges to force the bow down as well. The boat has twin 871's
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Old 08-29-2012, 12:22 PM   #39
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look closely at the fasteners. the green layer on the pink screws flakes off and is about .010 of an inch. the green screws are coming out of the same frame above waterline. They are solid and don't show any of the tendency to flake off. Interestingly the aluminum mufflers are strapped to these frames with bronze screws and aluminum straps. The wood contact area is destroyed by electrolysis and we may have to sister the sister frames effected. I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow. The aluminum strapping is mostly destroyed as well. I have seen wood ruined by stray electrical current from poorly grounded" bonded" pumps and motors. this is the first time I've seen it caused by dissimilar metals without electrical connections.

Any chance there could have been an over zinc issue at some point? Be interested in seeing the damaged wood. Was there any white fuzz with a non salty taste too it present on that damage?

I wonder what side of the boat was dockside for extended time ?

What kind of electrolysis protection system is being used and what has been changed or damaged ?

Oh so many questions.

Any signs of her holding water for a long period of time?

How do the keel bolts look ?

Scary one thing I have seen many times over the years is that rose colored glass deal. Where some one picks up a large old wood boat cause its cheap. You seem to know what you have ! Thanks for sharing I find it realy interesting.
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Old 08-29-2012, 02:12 PM   #40
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Any chance there could have been an over zinc issue at some point? Be interested in seeing the damaged wood. Was there any white fuzz with a non salty taste too it present on that damage?

Oh so many questions.
OFB - Not to hijack this thread, but what you ask regarding "over zinc" may play a part in the corrosion found on these fasteners and I believe it is therefore worth delving further into. Sooo... can you expound on your knowledge of issues created by "over zinc" in boats of any type material? I've heard differing accounts on "over zinc" repercussions to boat fasteners, base hull materials, and metal drive apparatus. You may know best! Always good to hear all opinions.

Scary - My hat's off to you for doing this project and I commend as well as thank you for all the pictures and circumstances you are keeping us abreast of. Please keep em commen! I'm following this thread like a hawk... as it appears many others are too!
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