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Old 08-10-2016, 08:25 PM   #1
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Switching from sail cruising to power passagemaker

Hello everyone,

My husband Wayne and I have been cruising the Pacific aboard our 52' steel motorsailer, LEARNATIVITY, and we have decided to make the switch to a fast passage maker.

Some of you may know of Dennis Harjamaa of Artnautica, designer of the LRC 58. Dennis is in the process of designing a new big sister to the 58 for us. It's early in the process, but she will be a fascinating boat. We have some early renderings. I'll attach one view. This is all subject to change at this point as we continue to work with Dennis.

We are currently in Fiji with our current boat LEARNATIVITY listed for sale. If she has not sold by the end of September, we intend to take off and sail her to the Med. via the Red Sea. In spite of recent events, it remains our first choice to build the new boat in Turkey, partly being built in a yard in Antalya and partly built by us. If anyone here has experience with building a boat in Turkey or with building in aluminum, I'd be especially happy to connect with you.

I hope to learn lots here. So happy to have found this forum.

Christine
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Old 08-11-2016, 07:05 AM   #2
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Welcome to the forum! Best of luck on your new build. Spent several weeks in Fiji on two separate trips, helping setup the scuba station at the research lab on Dravuni 25 years ago. Have fond memories of area while doing coral and mollusk mapping studies there. I'm sure it's a nice place to cruise.

Ted
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Old 08-11-2016, 07:53 AM   #3
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This is the bible of aluminium boat building ; my son is bringing a copy over to me next week, so I'm looking forward to a good read : The author is the owner of the famous Alaskan Specmar boat designs.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/007...ob_neva_mobile

From what I've already read about alloy welding and how hard it is achieve a good weld, you have to ask exactly how good the professional you are going to hire is at his job!!!!!

Its that difficult.
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Old 08-11-2016, 10:23 AM   #4
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Christine:


Isn't your attached picture of Steve Dashew's Wind Horse or similar FPBs, and the link is to a different NA's design.


Either would be really nice blue water boats, but with heavy price tags.


David
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Old 08-11-2016, 10:24 PM   #5
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The Dashew comparison

Of course, there is a similarity to Dashew's Wind Horse and the FPB line of boats. However, this is not one of his designs. If you look more closely, you will see the differences. For me as a sailor, most trawlers look alike. They have the same design parameters, i.e. wide beam displacement vessels with lots of interior volume and very high bows. In the under 60 foot range, they mostly have a split interior with the salon aft, the pilot house amidships and the cabins in the forward section. But no one says that Kady Krogan is copying Nordhaven even though the boats often look very similar.

The thing is we are long time sailors like Dashew is, and we have very similar design requirements. We want the longer waterline to achieve faster hull speed in a displacement boat, very high efficiency, only two staterooms, and a 360 degree view in the main salon/galley area. We want to knife through the water with a full stand-up engine room, tons of storage, and a minimum 4500 range at 11 knots.

We admire the FPB's but there is lots we don't like - like the price tag. So we are designing a similar long, slender displacement vessel and hoping to make our boat even more efficient and keeping to the KISS principle. I also think Dashew's boats lack a certain aesthetic quality, while Dennis has a more artistic eye.

I believe the day will come when this type of boat will have a name. They aren't trawlers. Perhaps VSV - Very Slender Vessel. Or maybe they will be called pilot boat style. I don't know. But we are not the only ones looking to build a long lean fast boat. Here are a few others:
Black Swan
Ned 70
Archer adventure 72
LRC 58

So, no, the pic I posted was not a pic of a Dashew boat, but I understand how you might have assumed it was.

Christine
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Old 08-11-2016, 10:43 PM   #6
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Welcome aboard. Artnautica`s US representative LRC58Fan keeps us updated on these boats.
You might find Cruisers Forum a more effective for selling the sailboat
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:08 PM   #7
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Thanks for the suggestion

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the suggestion. I know I should be more actively out there trying to sell LEARNATIVITY but to be honest, I'm really looking forward to the sail to the Med. We have put so much work into this refit of the sailboat, I want to get a chance to sail her myself before we turn her over to a new owner. Real serious long range cruising folk are few and far between. I think the actual market for our current sailboat is only a few people. I'm confident one of them will find us. In the meantime, we have spent a year in the boatyard getting this boat into pristine condition. I love this boat. I would really like to put a few thousand more miles on her.
Christine
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Old 08-11-2016, 11:38 PM   #8
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As someone looking at one of these LTBs (Long Thin Boats), I'm curious how you view the "great room" layout arrangement, i.e. single large room encompassing the salon, galley, and helm, vs a pilot house layout where there is a separate and dedicated pilot house?

I ask because to me one of the distinguishing features of an ocean going power boat is a dedicated pilot house. With one, you can be underway at night with a dark helm, yet have the rest of the boat open for business. People can be using the salon, watching TV, cooking in the galley, all without compromising helm operation with unwanted light.

The great room concept strikes me as directly conflicting with needs of a passage maker, requiring lights-out in the key living spaces in order to preserve night vision for the helmsman.

How do you see this issue coming directly from a sail boat?
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:08 AM   #9
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good point!

Hi twisted tree,

You do bring up a good point about the "great room" vs the traditional dedicated pilot house.

We've found that 99% of the time we are a two person boat. We invite family and friends to join us but no one ever does - and certainly not for passages. Even if we did have additional crew, when on passage, the rest of the boat is not "open for business." We don't watch movies on passage. On passage, the off watch is always trying to sleep when not on duty. If for some reason we had a larger crew, the individuals off watch could always watch movies in their bunks via tablet thanks to the wifi cloud on the boat.

On our current motorsailer, the galley is down below and the helm/pilot station is out in the cockpit. When I prepare dinner underway, I am isolated from the one other person on board. We would rather have that time as connected social time. For us, the "great room" or as we call it the "grand salon" is an improvement. We will have a complete helm station up above on the fly bridge deck and a complete helm below in the grand salon. Weather will determine where the night watchman is. Hopefully, my husband will come below and keep me company as I prepare food. I enjoy cooking underway and I would rather be close enough to the watch to have a conversation.

We tend to split the night watches into two 6 hour terms. I never wanted to do this back in the days when I was standing a wet watch in a sailboat and often hand steering with a tiller (I've been around a while). In those days, we did 2 on 2 off and passages were exhausting. But with our dry cockpit on LEARNATIVITY, my husband does the 7-1 and I stand the 1-7 and we are fully rested during every passage. Passages have become far more fun!

The one thing that would make them better for me is if the helm and the galley were closer together.

Christine
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:11 AM   #10
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I'm glad you found us too. Welcome to TF!

What an awesome project you have, with an equally awesome plan. Please keep us updated on the progress of your next dream.
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:19 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by ChristineKling View Post
Hi twisted tree,

You do bring up a good point about the "great room" vs the traditional dedicated pilot house.

We've found that 99% of the time we are a two person boat. We invite family and friends to join us but no one ever does - and certainly not for passages. Even if we did have additional crew, when on passage, the rest of the boat is not "open for business." We don't watch movies on passage. On passage, the off watch is always trying to sleep when not on duty. If for some reason we had a larger crew, the individuals off watch could always watch movies in their bunks via tablet thanks to the wifi cloud on the boat.

On our current motorsailer, the galley is down below and the helm/pilot station is out in the cockpit. When I prepare dinner underway, I am isolated from the one other person on board. We would rather have that time as connected social time. For us, the "great room" or as we call it the "grand salon" is an improvement. We will have a complete helm station up above on the fly bridge deck and a complete helm below in the grand salon. Weather will determine where the night watchman is. Hopefully, my husband will come below and keep me company as I prepare food. I enjoy cooking underway and I would rather be close enough to the watch to have a conversation.

We tend to split the night watches into two 6 hour terms. I never wanted to do this back in the days when I was standing a wet watch in a sailboat and often hand steering with a tiller (I've been around a while). In those days, we did 2 on 2 off and passages were exhausting. But with our dry cockpit on LEARNATIVITY, my husband does the 7-1 and I stand the 1-7 and we are fully rested during every passage. Passages have become far more fun!

The one thing that would make them better for me is if the helm and the galley were closer together.

Christine
I can see that with two people. We too are 2 people 90% of the time, and also do 6hr shifts and prefer them for all the same reasons. I obviously prefer a pilot house, and find that even grabbing a simple meal or making coffee requires light in the galley, so we prefer separation from the helm.
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Old 08-12-2016, 05:20 AM   #12
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I love the shape of those slim long hulls , but are you aware of the drawbacks ( there are always some) of the design?

A sailboat hull works well with sails because the driving force steadies the boat both in the rolling and the pitching axis. When you remove the sails ,because the hull is fatter in the centre, the boat rotates around that fuller mid section and produces severe pitching.

Roll is easy to control in a slim hull with stabs, but how do you control pitching ? MBY magazine tested the Dashew boat at the needles in the Solent which is notorious for steep seas and remarked on this unusual hull behaviour. There was a YouTube video showing a Dashew in Australia ' hobby horsing' just like a catamaran, but its been taken down off the internet. Nearest thing to a long slim Hull is a Submarine on the surface ; take a look how they behave in steep seas.

Most people on the Boat design forum est. That fuel burn would be in the same ball park as a standard displacement LRC, maybe 10% better on a good day.expect about 1.3-1.5 mpg at 6 kts for a 50'-60' boat. Why? There's a world of difference between results in a boat testing tank and the real world, and long slim hulls suffer from a lot of wave induced drag from the bow digging into the front of waves.

Suggest you go on a test trip to evaluate, before you build one.
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:47 AM   #13
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I talk to many sailors who are thinking of coming to the dark side. There are two points that seem to come up over and over and I'd challenge you to deeply consider both of these things:

1. You're very used to using your current boat in a particular way - long distance, ocean-crossing cruising. If you move to a power boat, will you be using it in the same way? For example, if you're done crossing oceans and just want to bop around the Caribbean for a decade, make sure you're not creating a vessel for a different purpose.

2. Sailors coming to trawlers are often fixated by fuel costs and reducing fuel usage. Trawler owners are rarely concerned about fuel cost (of course it matters though) because we realize that it's not the major cost. Make sure you're not overly consumed with fuel. This plays into #1 above too in a big way because if you won't be crossing the Pacific, chances are your real fuel needs are well reduced.
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Old 08-12-2016, 10:26 AM   #14
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Hmmm, these look like 1/2 of a catamaran.
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:10 PM   #15
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Hmmm, these look like 1/2 of a catamaran.
Imagine what it would cost if it included the other half.
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:34 PM   #16
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I like these long slender fast passage makers, or whatever you want to call them. I like the idea of being able to go 10-11 knots instead of 6-7, but still be able to take big seas safely and recover from a knockdown, unlike a power catamaran. Plus, I think they look cool. If I was rich I would get myself one! But I like "different".

And just because it's different and strange looking doesn't mean it's a bad design. To me, it makes sense to reserve any criticism that it's a bad design until you have had some actual time on one.

I don't know sh&t from Shinola, but I like learning about new things.

Interesting article:

http://www.kastenmarine.com/ideal_passagemaker.htm
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:58 PM   #17
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I like these long slender fast passage makers, or whatever you want to call them. I like the idea of being able to go 10-11 knots instead of 6-7, but still be able to take big seas safely and recover from a knockdown, unlike a power catamaran. Plus, I think they look cool. If I was rich I would get myself one! But I like "different".

And just because it's different and strange looking doesn't mean it's a bad design. To me, it makes sense to reserve any criticism that it's a bad design until you had some actual time on one.
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Old 08-12-2016, 02:12 PM   #18
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FPM,
Acronyms are definitely in and FPM seems the obvious.

Re the recent remarks about fuel consumption consider the huge difference between the usual trawler and the FPM that frequently needs to cross an ocean befor getting more fuel.

I have no interest in the Dashew type FPM or similar boats. But it shows how valuuable forums can be as I can read along evaluating along w those that have much more knowledge and motive for learning. Kind of a little adventure I can pick up and drop at will only to get involved in another. I'll bet there are hundreds of others following along. And when I get too old to go boating these forums and the people that post will be a wonderful blessing.

But re the FPM in general crossing oceans takes so much time the advantage of speed is questionable .. IMO. The only need I can see for 11 knots is to minimize the transit time. And if it's objectionable enough to require a special boat as radical and single purpose as the present FPMakers are why not get a bigger and heavy typical PM and take your time crossing. Why minimize something you enjoy .... unless you don't enjoy it? But I have'nt done this and never will.
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Old 08-12-2016, 10:21 PM   #19
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Peter - Thanks for the comment and the warnings. I agree with you that all boat designs have drawbacks and every boat is a collection of compromises. We have talked to several FPB and LRC owners and Wayne has gone out on the LRC 58 Broadsword. We are well aware that there will be an entirely different world of motion from what we know on sailboats. But among the people we have spoken to are those who previously owned traditional trawlers, and they far prefer the sea kindliness of the FPM (thank you Eric) designs.

I refer you to the designer Michael Kasten's paper on "The Ideal Passagemaker." He writes, "Thus, if a boat is shaped so that she is slender; pushes up as small a bow wave as possible; does not have a marked "shoulder" in the forward waterlines which would then encourage a secondary bow wave; and does not pull along a big stern wave, we will have done the best job in terms of reducing resistance under power. The ideal passagemaker will therefore have a long waterline; an easy entry without creating a hollow forward; there will not be a 'shoulder' forward where for example a chine may cross the waterline; there will be as long and straight a run as possible; and the boat will not be overly wide or tall."

Every boat can encounter seas of just the right frequency that will make her pitch mercilessly. I wouldn't write off a boat design because somebody caught it on video hobby-horsing. Every boat does in certain conditions.

Christine
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Old 08-12-2016, 10:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey S View Post
I talk to many sailors who are thinking of coming to the dark side. There are two points that seem to come up over and over and I'd challenge you to deeply consider both of these things:

1. You're very used to using your current boat in a particular way - long distance, ocean-crossing cruising. If you move to a power boat, will you be using it in the same way? For example, if you're done crossing oceans and just want to bop around the Caribbean for a decade, make sure you're not creating a vessel for a different purpose.

2. Sailors coming to trawlers are often fixated by fuel costs and reducing fuel usage. Trawler owners are rarely concerned about fuel cost (of course it matters though) because we realize that it's not the major cost. Make sure you're not overly consumed with fuel. This plays into #1 above too in a big way because if you won't be crossing the Pacific, chances are your real fuel needs are well reduced.
Hi Jeff,

You know me as Christine Kling. I'm the thriller author, and I used to blog about iPad apps on the WriteontheWater blog. We've exchanged comments there before.

Thanks for the challenging questions. We are not going over to the "dark side" because we of age or infirmity. We do want to continue to use our new powerboat to make long ocean passages. We will be crossing oceans and while we are concerned about cost, we are more concerned about range.

One of our big goals in this change is also to get speed. We would like to do some high latitude cruising but we're wimps when it comes to cold. Wayne is Canadian, and we would both love to go up to Alaska, for example, but in our current 6 knot boat, we'd have to winter over up there. In a 10-knot boat we could go up and back in a single season. We also want to be a be better able to outrun bad weather.

We arrived in Fiji in May and met up with the FPB64 Atlantis in Savusavu. We left and cruised out to the Lau group and along the south coast of Viti Levu, ending up in Vuda Marina 5 months later. There we ran into Atlantis again. We had covered about 300 miles of cruising. We asked where he had been. He'd gone up to Micronesia as far as Palau and back. He'd covered more like 4000 miles. We want to be able to do that.

Christine
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