Sail to power transition

[MIG Family]

We are a family of sailors thinking to transition to power. We recently retired, and tried to do some overnight trips with our daysailer. But, well, it's a daysailer. So we are looking for a 40(ish) foot displacement power cruiser suitable for coastal cruising in LI Sound and ME coast. We're here to learn and connect...

Anybody have any thoughts on "the need for speed?" We are very happy moving at 6-8 knots, but worry that we might "need" more speed from time to time, and for resale (not for a while, but boats are expensive, right?...) Happened to see a thread here about Linssen boats (really nice steel boats from Holland) and I wondered if their max speed of 8 knots is what prevented them from getting popular here...

 

[DDW]

The way I look at it (as a long time and still sailor) is that speed costs money - a lot of money - and you are presumably on the boat to enjoy your time there, why spend a lot of money to get it over quicker?

 

[MIG Family]

Hey DDW!
(We are originally from SF, and sailed for years there. Ya learn good technique in the Slot. And we envy you for still being there.)
Excellent point-- and the idea of retirement was to spend more time on the boat-- so what's the problem, right? I guess I'm hoping for some reassurance that there are plenty of others who feel like you and me about the pleasure of sailboat speeds...

 

[mvweebles]

Spend some time on https://www.bumfuzzle.com/. They are serial adventurers who spent several years raising a couple kids while exploring the Caribbean Sea aboard a Grand Banks 42. A year or so ago they reverted to their sail roots (they have a circumnavigation on their resume). Good writers with decent pictures.

Speed is a frame of mind. Reason Dutch built boats are not popular here is they are steel boats which simply are not popular in the US. I doubt it has anything to do with speed. Similar to your sailboat, if you have a 7-kt powerboat, you will plan on getting somehwhere at 7-kts (say, 50-nms in 7-hours). If you want to pay the freight and want to get there in 5-hours, great - just plan on the fuel bill.

My suggestion would be to decide on a general body style - trunk cabin trawler, sundeck style motoryacht, sedan style, pilothouse, etc. Budget will play a large role too.

 

[O C Diver]

We are a family of sailors thinking to transition to power. We recently retired, and tried to do some overnight trips with our daysailer. But, well, it's a daysailer. So we are looking for a 40(ish) foot displacement power cruiser suitable for coastal cruising in LI Sound and ME coast. We're here to learn and connect...

Anybody have any thoughts on "the need for speed?" We are very happy moving at 6-8 knots, but worry that we might "need" more speed from time to time, and for resale (not for a while, but boats are expensive, right?...) Happened to see a thread here about Linssen boats (really nice steel boats from Holland) and I wondered if their max speed of 8 knots is what prevented them from getting popular here...

Nothing wrong with 6 to 8 knots. I've cruised the East coast from FL to NY, the Great Lakes, and the Great Loop at mostly 6 to 7 knots. Averaging about 5,000 miles per year would be prohibitive without getting 3 to 5 miles per gallon. Only real downside is that you're putting more hours on the engine.

Ted

 

[Jeff F]

Welcome. I ran into the owner of a Linnsen recently in the great lakes. He bought it new and was just completing a 3000 mile cruise. Wish I'd had more time to chat when we met. Interesting boat. But rare in North America.

You don't need a displacement boat in order to noodle around the coast at displacement speeds. I think a lot of sailors arrive here seeking a full displacement boat. I did. Most end up with something that can go a lot faster and drive them slow. If you're not considering new the range of displacement power cruisers available is vanishingly small.

Have you done the usual Yachtworld search? I wouldn't be too prescriptive at first. Bring candidate boats here and we'll critique them

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard.

 

[MIG Family]

Thanks everyone-- excellent points all.

Yachtworld and other lists are great. I could spend hours a day on them (and sometimes do) :-/

 

[Pascall]

Welcome,

As a Dutchman, I can tell you a lot about steel ships (have one myself) yards, designers, types and brands, if you need them.
Linsen is a well-known figure in the Netherlands, but is immensely popular with our eastern neighbours Germany.
In the Netherlands, some fast steel ships are built and only polyester displacement is built, but normally steel is water displacement and polyester for the fast ships.
With our cruising speed of 7.5 kn we have come everywhere we wanted to go in the 30 years that we have been sailing intensively and very rarely we longed for speed.

Greeting,

Pascal.

 

[MIG Family]

Thanks to all for very helpful comments.

Jeff F: you are 100% on target. That's probably what we will ultimately do. Very important to me is: usable cabin space, and less need for towering superstructures and lots of ladders to climb. Ah well.

Many of you pointed out that "speed is money," and how right you are... But there are so many 40 footers getting built with 600 HP engines. Any opinions about the wisdom of running a 600 HP engine all day at near-idle speeds? Seems like it would be a lot thirstier than a 100 HP running at 60%, even though the boat speed would be comparable. It's really a challenge to find something that is traditional, well-built, not too tall and not too thirsty. (sounds like I'm talking about something else, heh...). Seems like a market opportunity for someone younger than me...

Pascal, I envy the boats of the Netherlands! Beautiful build quality, spacious cabins, solid feel. On Yactworld and DeValk I found Linssen, Pikmeer and Boarnstream. Their used boat prices are within reach, but a lot of conversion must be done before I could register in the US. Difficult and expensive work! I wish we had more boats like these in the US.

Jeff F, did the Linssen fellow happen to mention where he got his boat? Sounds like he is doing the Great Loop, and they seem like perfect boats for that kind of trip. LI Sound and the New England coast can be stormier than that, and some of my buddies advise speed to get out of weather. Of course, better choice is to stay safe in port until the weather blows over...

Thanks all. Great forum!

 

[Osprey69]

When we looked (transitioned from sail) I wanted the ability to hit 12+ knots in case we needed to outrun weather. Our sailboat can handle most anything you can throw at it, but I would not have the same confidence in this boat. We run all day long at 8.5 knots at 1400 rpm with two 375 hp CATS which consume 5 gals an hour. We ran it up once to catch a lock in the ICW. It was fun and expensive.

 

[mvweebles]

I often hear folks say they want ability to outrun weather, arguably a safety issue. But I think that's pretty rare. Ability to catch a lock, bridge opening, or perhaps currents is much more common - convenience item (vs safety). I will add that along the west coast, ability to arrive in daylight hours could be compelling, but I have never heard that cited as a reason for more hp.

In the end, you have to decide whether your concerns are safety related, or convenience related, and how much that is worth to you. There's a significant cost premium not just in fuel, but in maintenance.

Peter

 

[Jeff F]

Jeff F, did the Linssen fellow happen to mention where he got his boat? Sounds like he is doing the Great Loop, and they seem like perfect boats for that kind of trip.

I think he said he bought it new from the builder. They were on their way back home to WI from a trip east to Quebec City.

Among loopers the Mainship 390/400 is a popular choice in that size range. Lots of loopers have boats capable of 20+ knots but regularly travel at 7-9 for decent economy. You'll find lots of discussion here on running big engines at low speed. It's not as bad as you might think.

 

[SteveK]

My current boat has the ability to motor along at 16 knots all day. That is the way it came powered. But it seems to be happy to chug along at 7-9 knots. It was for the out of the weather inside living space that we chose her, not for speed.

BTW, most here are ex sailors, some just will not admit to it. The go fast crowd is on another forum.

 

[Mac G]

We are ex-sailors (50+ years and former offshore racing guy) and we bought an older GB42 that has twin JD 135HP. Not a displacement hull and not fast by today's standards. She is also not suitable for offshore rough weather travel, certainly not like our prior deep keel offshore cutter-rigged sailboat fitted with an Aires which could handle anything. But we are retired geezers now and watch the weather more closely, not that we did not pay attention before but we really try to avoid rough weather days.
We are just coastal cruisers now and like the fact that we can steer rhumbline regardles of the wind direction and arrive faster (most of the time) than we could have on our sailboat. Have found ours is fine on any upwind point of sail, not so much fun on a beam sea/beam wind situation (but no powerboats are) and needs skilled hand-steering on equivalent of broach reach or quartering seas to maintain good control. Even with our Aires (which steered like a drunk but kept course) a human is much better reacting and steering through seas than an autopilot.
Whereas living on a sailboat is like being on a surfaced submarine, much darker, poorer ventilation, etc. - we enjoy living above the waterline now.
So speed is not an issue for us, but rough weather is so we avoid it.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Like the old saying goes.."Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go"?

But seriously, if you have been a sailor for a number of years you already know how often it is critical to have extra speed available. For me it was basically never. If the weather was "iffy" I just stayed put. If I got caught out in it I just made for port, not a big deal. Remember if you are sitting in port or beating against the waves in a forty foot trawler you will have more creature comforts than in a sailing boat.

pete

 

[phillippeterson]

Love the Linssen. The Variotop is awesome.

And they changed from Volvo to Mercury inboard diesels.

 

[Slowmo]

We didn't move from a sailboat but from a full displacement to a boat capable of planing. I had the idea that the availability of speed might be nice. The answer to that is yes...and no. The reality is we displace at 8kn and if we have a long passage the fastest we've cruised is about 9.5. The fuel usage goes up rapidly as you push up to a plane, especially on boats like the Grand Banks which were really designed to run around 8kn but are capable of planing.

As to sail vs power. Like others I've sailed the SF Bay a number of times since we live there and my brother and friends had sailboats. The slot is fun but the black hole behind Angel Isl is pure hell. Unfortunately, if you dock in Richmond you have to cross behind the island whether you like it or not. You go from making 10kn to making 0.5kn in just a few hundred yards!

 

[AlanT]

We are a family of sailors thinking to transition to power. We recently retired, and tried to do some overnight trips with our daysailer. But, well, it's a daysailer. So we are looking for a 40(ish) foot displacement power cruiser suitable for coastal cruising in LI Sound and ME coast. We're here to learn and connect...

Anybody have any thoughts on "the need for speed?" ..

Some folks certainly need it. We also transitioned from Sail to Power. During our sail years we also owned a Bayliner 2855 which could easily plane at around 15 kts or better. It was great fun for short trips to local beaches and islands with friends and family. I only took it on one longer voyage - our annual 125 NM trip to the San Juan Islands. After 8 or 10 hours of planing I was shattered. The concentration needed to travel at that speed was, for me unpleasant and I realized that I was not cut out to zoom around. I am very comfortable at 8 - 10 knots under power or sail. I have plenty of time to enjoy the surroundings and the experience and since I have the time available, I do not mind breaking up a voyage like the one mentioned into two legs both of which are generally relaxing.
~A

 

[PierreR]

I moved from sail to power and have never owned a planning or a semi displacement hull. Why? Philosophy, obstinance, irrational fear. I own the boat you described, full displacement, twin engine, 42' higher quality build, economical to run. I have no need to go fast, I have time, the journey is most of it and I can stay in port for weather. My boat is built for serious coastal cruising but I am not.

Why you ask did I phrase my reasons the way that I did? Because the more rough weather seaworthiness you have in a boat the less room you have and the more it is like a submarine, even in power boats. Irrational fears are just that, the more I would accept a planning hull and less seaworthiness the more i might enjoy the boat because of much easier access to the water and dockside amenities. More like the back yard and patio vs the formal dining room. Less seaworthiness means better layout for entertaining others and more room with better shapes for living.

Philosophy, I use to be an introvert and now I am an extrovert, I can now afford all the fuel I want but have less desire for long voyages. Obstinance, ego, prolly a bit of boat boat snobbery, whatever, I am still in a full displacement trawler but might be happier in a sedan bridge or Europa design or even god forbid, a houseboat. Times change with aging bodies.

 

[JackConnick]

We moved from an Islander 28 sailboat which I had for nearly 30 years here in Puget Sound, to a Grand Banks 36 a year or so ago.
It has twin 210 Cummins and comfortably and economically cruises at 9 kts. We can open it up and spend lots of money on fuel if we want to go 12-13 kts.
Its comfortable for the two of us and we're happy with the transition.


Jack

 

[LIS Mainship]

We transitioned 2 years ago, some observations:

- Per our moniker, we own a Mainship, which is semi-displacement. The boat can go ~15 knots, but we generally transit at 7-9 knots, whatever is most comfortable., and find that "slow cruise" to be more than sufficient for our purposes, particularly coming from the sail community. But, on occasion, it is nice to have the ability to use "fast cruise" to beat weather, find a comfortable speed to run before seas, or simply get to the destination in a timely fashion (darkness, etc).

- If you get an opportunity to get out on some different hulls, talk to & experience the boat in action, that could help.

- But, serendipity can also shine on yiu once in a while; ours was a spur-of-the-moment decision to transition, followed by a similar purchase and satisfying sale of our previous (sail)boat. And it all has worked out very well.

Good luck...

 

[SteveK]

Some folks certainly need it. We also transitioned from Sail to Power. During our sail years we also owned a Bayliner 2855 which could easily plane at around 15 kts or better. It was great fun for short trips to local beaches and islands with friends and family. I only took it on one longer voyage - our annual 125 NM trip to the San Juan Islands. After 8 or 10 hours of planing I was shattered. The concentration needed to travel at that speed was, for me unpleasant and I realized that I was not cut out to zoom around. I am very comfortable at 8 - 10 knots under power or sail. I have plenty of time to enjoy the surroundings and the experience and since I have the time available, I do not mind breaking up a voyage like the one mentioned into two legs both of which are generally relaxing.
~A

The only time a sailboat I was on went that speed was downhill on an offshore wave when storm force winds came up behind us.

 

[AlanT]

The only time a sailboat I was on went that speed was downhill on an offshore wave when storm force winds came up behind us.

Our last sailboat was a Sparkman & Stevens designed Hylas 49'. Loaded with our liveaboard cruising gear crossing the Atlantic twice we regularly topped 200NM days (24 hrs) = 8.3Kts. I am not sure what our top speed was on that sailboat. We were fast on a beam reach and of course downwind. This picture is of us off the NE Coast of Korcula Island (Croatia) in a bit of a blow.

 

[DDW]

My experience for what it's worth. Sailboat owner for 55 years now. Trawler owner for 4. Not really interested in speed (at least speed that cost a lot of money), but I have an AT34 which can do about 17 knots and cruise realistically at 12 or 13. When I bought it I thought maybe I would occasionally do that, especially in the PNW when tidal rapids must be respected and running at night is dangerous (because of the lumber in the water). Now I've put 1500 hours on it or close to 10,000 miles. The only time I have EVER run it faster than 8 knots is for a few minutes to exercise it now and again or to test something for a short period. Usually we run at 1250 rpm and 7 knots, 1.7 gal/hr, 380 HP Cummins QSB. If in a hurry, or to settle it in weather, sometimes I'll run 1400 or even 1500 for an hour (about 8.5 knots). Common rail engines seem to be fine with running at fractional power and low RPMs for as long as you want (this is what diesels in trucks do after all). The reasons I don't want to run at 12 knots is the 12 gal/hr fuel burn and all the noise and drama. I'm on the boat to relax and have fun. If I could do 10 for the same fuel burn and noise and motion would I do it? Sure, but there are serious other compromises involved in doing that.

 

[Pascall]

When we made our choice 30 years ago for the boat we wanted to build, we had the following requirements;
Tough look.
The floors at the same height for the future as you get older.
Nice skirt shape, round skirt
The engine noise must be zero.
Economical, so a large range.
We are now 27 years and more than 12,000 hours later and are still happy with the choice we made in the past.
The first engine, a Nanni 60 horsepower 6 cylinder, consumed between 4 liters per hour (1,056 gal)
Speed 6 miles on average.
There is now a new engine in Nanni: 100 hp, 4 cylinder consumption, 4.8 liters per hour (1,268 gal), speed 6.6 miles average.
The noise at cruising speed in the wheelhouse/saloon is 57DB and that is very quiet and very comfortable.
It is a steel boat which results in a high weight, 11 meters long and weighs 14 tons.
The weight gives a lot of comfort while manoeuvring, the boat does not blow away quickly in a lot of wind, so a bow thruster is never used.
We are getting older and retired and make beautiful trips from the Netherlands to Denmark, Germany, France, Sweden and Norway.
Both on canals, rivers and by sea, trips of 25 hours or more are no exception, but the boat sails very comfortably, partly due to the very low engine noise you will not be tired.
Good luck with your search!

Greeting

Pascal.

 

[DBG8492]

We transitioned from sailing to power because of the Admiral. She didn't care for being heeled when underway by sail. I am probably to blame for that because her first "passage" experience was outside between Savannah and Jekyll Island and back - both overnights and both in rough seas beating upwind in 20+ knots. Not a pleasant experience for her.

So if I wanted to continue living on the water, I figured it was best to move to power and stick to the ICW, rivers, and lakes. The other plus was the room. An Irwin 34 Citation isn't really roomy enough to accommodate two adults and two big dogs. We made it work, but it was difficult.

We looked at a few semi-displacement twin screw models - I *really* wanted two engines and the ability to get 15 knots - but ended up buying a single screw MT 36 Sundeck because they are quite roomy and we couldn't pass up the price. Honestly, we're going to end up paying anyway because of issues with the boat - but that's neither here nor there.

Part of my thought process around being able to kick it up over 15 knots was the ability to get out of trouble if necessary - storms or whatever. But in the end, like my old boxing trainer used to say, "The best defense is not being where the punch lands." If the weather is bad, we will simply stay put. If we get caught in it, we will make do and/or head for port. It does mean that sometimes, you're going to be stuck somewhere - but we live on her and our schedule isn't normally dependent on being any particular place at any particular time.

 

[klee wyck]

I have never been a sailor but currently own examples of both fast and slow boats in terms of your question. One is capable of 8 knots and the other capable of 20+. I drive one at 8 and the other at 10 most of the time.
I have been trying to figure out which one I like best for three years now with no success. It is complicated, multifaceted, and probably pretty personal.
In the end I have come to think that the some of the more important criteria are as follows:
Will she keep me alive and relatively comfortable if I make marginal decisions about what conditions to be out in? No question in my mind that both are well qualified.
Does she make my heart rate go up when walking up to her and climbing aboard? Check, on both accounts.
How complex is she? These days, getting help in a timely fashion in order to keep cruising is pretty marginal for various reasons. I am marginal in terms of skills, so complexity is the enemy. Marine systems seem more prone to failure than others so simple, robust, and redundant are all good things. Buy a boat with a high-quality build and history.
Fuel usage rate does not make the top five but both of mine are pretty fuel efficient. For perspective, it costs me between 100-150K per year to own, improve, and keep up these two boats, but only about 10K of that is fuel.

In the end, I think I have bought the right boat(s) because it will break my heart to sell either one of them (and that is the inevitable outcome).

Have fun. Unless you buy junk, how can you go wrong buying a boat??

 

[Mac G]

Wow. LIBRA is a classic beauty!
She would be my choice as an old-school monohull guy.

 

[RCook]

Not really interested in speed (at least speed that cost a lot of money), but I have an AT34 which can do about 17 knots and cruise realistically at 12 or 13. When I bought it I thought maybe I would occasionally do that, especially in the PNW when tidal rapids must be respected and running at night is dangerous (because of the lumber in the water). Now I've put 1500 hours on it or close to 10,000 miles. The only time I have EVER run it faster than 8 knots is for a few minutes to exercise it now and again or to test something for a short period. Usually we run at 1250 rpm and 7 knots, 1.7 gal/hr, 380 HP Cummins QSB. If in a hurry, or to settle it in weather, sometimes I'll run 1400 or even 1500 for an hour (about 8.5 knots). Common rail engines seem to be fine with running at fractional power and low RPMs for as long as you want (this is what diesels in trucks do after all). The reasons I don't want to run at 12 knots is the 12 gal/hr fuel burn and all the noise and drama. I'm on the boat to relax and have fun. If I could do 10 for the same fuel burn and noise and motion would I do it? Sure, but there are serious other compromises involved in doing that.

My experience for 8 years in a Nordic Tug 37 is much like DDW's. Before that, for 18 years in a diesel-powered 26-footer capable of planing at 16-18 knots, we almost always did 6-7 knots after our first two years. I was retired and could spend months cruising the Inside Passage each summer, so had little reason to put up with the fuel cost, noise, and need to keep a very sharp lookout for floating wood that traveling fast required. The NT37 can cruise at 12, but we almost never want to do so. I'd be fine with 8 knots max.