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Old 08-03-2014, 03:45 AM   #21
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Easily more than the boat is worth. Depending upon how much of the work you do yourself, and DIY boatyards can be as rare as rocking horse poop. $120+ per man per hour labor rates add up in a hurry.

Dependent upon engine and access I've heard $40-60,000 ballpark for twins. Seldom if ever is it just an engine swap. Too many other things become "easy to do" since "the engines are already out"

Re-powering happens but it's usually done because you love the boat and have the desire to hold it fairly long term. A fellow in my marina has perhaps $120,000 wrapped up in an older Bertram 28 right now. Am told he kisses the checks every month before he hands them across the desk because he'll never see the money again.
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Old 08-03-2014, 06:56 AM   #22
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So, Either replacing Ford-Lehmans or cat 3208's with new/newer more reliable power plants? Thanks as always :-)
You will not find a more reliable new power plant than one of these two properly maintained. For likely less than $5K per engine for an FL and $8K for the Cat the hang ons can be properly serviced and if needed replaced with new/rebuilt.

If you have to pull the heads walk on that vessel as all bets are off if age or abuse is internal. Ditto transmission and stern tube area, if too bad walk. A good engine survey will reveal go forward issues and costs.
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Old 08-03-2014, 09:22 AM   #23
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The "10% rule" is in my opinion, total nonsense. Simply because a totally clapped out $100,000 boat is going to require much more investment than one in perfect condition.

In reality cost of ownership (given how the boat is used is a constant) depends on

1) what your standards are for seaworthiness, comfort, convenience and cosmetics. "Seaworthiness" means at least everything to do with structural integrity, propulsion, steering, keeping you and the boat safely afloat and not burning it down.
2) what shape the boat is in when you buy it: how far from those standards is it, or will be in the foreseeable future if nothing is done?
3) cost to bring it to your standards over what period of time you are willing to wait
4) keeping to those standards
5) how much you can competently do yourself (to the standards) and your desire to do it and what value you put on your time.
6) How much it costs to have competent professionals do the stuff not in #5

The first half or so of David Pascoe's "Mid Sized Power Boats" is the best primer I have seen on most of these issues, money well spent. It gives most newbies a sense of key things to consider and look for. You can take his opinion of different makes of boats and either discard them (dated in most cases, or based on limited samples) or with a big bag of rock salt at best. But the fundamentals are sound, and will begin to guide you to developing what exactly your standards are.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:57 AM   #24
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The "10% rule" is in my opinion, total nonsense. Simply because a totally clapped out $100,000 boat is going to require much more investment than one in perfect condition.

.
I've used the "10% per annum" figure for many years, as have other brokers, but that's for a new to very late model vessels. I also wish surveyors would quit telling boat buyers to "go buy a RV" as they're handing a buyer the bill for a disaster they just finished surveying. Many in Florida have dockage behind our homes, but either no space next to them for parking a RV if we wanted one, and the majority of communities have zoning or HOAs that forbid them anyway. On the other hand there's no shortage of product is there? You seen LaMesa RV on I-95 or those dealerships on I-75? Wow. And here us brokers are searching high and low for nice boats to sell. Yes, I've entertained the thoughts of jumping ship.
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:22 PM   #25
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So,
Been looking at a lot of boats and I have another question :-) I am seeing a lot of boats at varying prices for pretty much the same boat. (I know they are never the same, as owner maint is a huge part of the quality of the boat, at least ones built in the 80's which we are looking at) but I was wondering if anybody knew a rough estimate of what a re-power would cost for a twin diesel low Horse-power style boat. Either replacing Ford-Lehmans or cat 3208's with new/newer more reliable power plants? Thanks as always :-)
Why in the world would you want to repower a boat that has Lehmans? They are the most economical, reliable, and bulletproof diesels ever made. You would be better off doing a rebuild, it would say you a whole lot of money and you would have a better engine than you could buy. Who knows, but that lehman you want to replace may have another 5-10, 000 hours left in it.
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Old 08-03-2014, 07:13 PM   #26
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Rebuild the Lehmans or Cat 3208s...bt will last forever if done and maintained correctly.

There's a place in Crisfield, Md that used to do Cat 3208s for a song.
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:00 AM   #27
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From the other thread.

Was Jim Buckley and Jim Wheeler at CMA for '92? I would rate them at the top.
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:35 AM   #28
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Yes, Dr. Wheeler was there, he was actually my favorite there. Maybe because he was my 1st teacher I had there. My freshman year, I believe I was in his class both long trimesters. Not during the cruise winter one though. I talked to him a few years ago at Homecoming and he seemed to be doing well. As for Buckley, he was there I belive but since I transferred to the Eng dept, I didn't have much interaction with him. I had no idea Dr Wheeler had been there that long. When did you get out of CMA? I see you love Hot Rods, are you a boater as well?
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Old 08-07-2014, 12:03 PM   #29
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I see your going by all the grey in my beard in the avatar and assume I'm older and graduated earlier. Since I entered CMA in my mid 40's your probably right on the first count. I entered for the class of '98 but with my college from 71 transferring, graduated class of '97.

As to hot rods, yes, had that addiction for 40+ years. The avatar is my Swiss Army knife of a hot rod. Over 1 G cornering, 9.7 in the quarter, good street manners and acceptable fuel mileage. Unlike all my previous hot rods, this one as Dr Wheeler would say, doesn't try to bend the Laws of Physics. It only weighs 1790 lbs, powered by a 427 into a 5 speed manual out to a Jag IRS.

On the boating front it has been awhile. Last off shore capable boat was before CMA, had a Cal 40. Currently I'm entertaining the project of a trailerable, offshore capable 30' power catamaran. At CMA I did my thesis on minimum wetted surface vessels (back then it was fast ferries), and have always wanted something efficient. A couple of years ago when we had the first major price drop in LiFePO4 lithium cells I put together an electric kayak. 62 lbs of these cells allowed me to cruise the entire 75 mile shoreline of Lake Tahoe. Now with solar panels I want to scale it up to a 30' cat. Concept is enough solar for 40 nm per day coupled to enough storage for 120 nm day's run.
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Old 08-07-2014, 12:03 PM   #30
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As a marine engineer, be advised that Volvo does not support legacy engines. If you need parts for a Volvo engine that is no longer in production, you are SOL.
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Old 08-07-2014, 01:34 PM   #31
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What am I missing? Hall outs, maint, ect.
We are looking at 45-50ft in size About $175k budget
Thanks for the help in advance :-)
I have three pieces of "advice" which were beneficial to us when we started thinking about buying a cruising boat of our own.

1. Don't start out shopping for a boat. Start out by defining what you want to do with a boat. Where do you want to go, how many people do you want to take with you, what kind of environment do you want to boat in, will you have a pet on board, and so on. Once you have defined what you want your boating experience to be, this will go a long way toward narrowing your choices of the type and make of boat that will suit you. Think of it as buying a computer. You don't just go out and buy a computer. You figure out what you want to do with a computer, what applications you want to run, and then find the computer best suited to doing running those applications.

2. A piece of advice I read in a Boy's Life magazine story as a kid back in the 1960s has always stuck with me, and we've applied it to our own boat purchases. "Buy the smallest boat you can afford." This does not mean buy a boat that is too small for your intended purpose. But for x-amount of money, the smaller the boat you buy, the newer it will be or the better shape it will be in, which often amounts to the same thing. Conversely, the larger boat you buy for x-amount of money,, the worse shape it will be in and the more work it will require, and the greater the potential it will have for costing you a lot more than you want to-- or can-- spend.

3. Don't underestimate ownership costs. The purchase cost of a boat is just the price of admission. Ownership costs are everything the boat will cost you--- moorage, insurance, dock electricity, fuel, taxes/registration, maintenance, repairs, and upgrades--- every year that you own the boat. For some reason, finance payments if you finance the boat are typically not included in the definition of ownership cost, maybe because they stop when the boat's paid off.

When we bought our current boat in 1998, the average figure that was being used by brokers, surveyors, and others to describe ownership cost was 10% of the purchase price of the boat per year. Bear in mind that nobody was saying that this is a hard and fast number. It is a very rough average, and it has only one value to a potential buyer. And that is that it's an "in the ballpark" figure that can be used to make sure one is allowing for ownership costs when figuring out if one can truly afford a particular boat or not.

Obviously, the ownership cost will have a ton of variables. Where you boat, the labor rate where you boat, the condition of your boat, the make of boat, how much of your own work you are willing or able to do, even the climate in your area, all have an effect on the ownership cost. In fact, there are so many variables it becomes an almost impossible task to predict what the ownership cost of a particular boat will be. But that cost is precisely what a potential buyer, particularly one new to boating, needs to know to avoid biting off more than he or she can chew with regards to the affordability of becoming a boat owner.

Hence the average figure of 10% of the purchase price per year. Some years will be more, some less. We have not kept a close watch on what our boat costs us every year. It costs what it costs. But keeping in mind that 10% figure before we bought the boat helped make sure we went into the deal with our eyes open, knowing that the boat was going to cost a fair amount of money year after year after year. And doing very rough guessculations, I would say that over the last 16 years that 10% number has been at least enough in the ballpark to be a useful number to have had at the outset.

That was in 1998. Today, I would be more inclined to use a figure of 15% a year to account for higher labor rates and the increasing cost of everything from haulouts to paint brushes.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:44 PM   #32
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Certainly the 10% of purchase price per year has been pretty damn close on a yearly average for us, Marin. Much to my wife's continuing dismay. She is relieved we are selling her this Spring, as we will be travelling too much, with a son and family in London, to use her enough.
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:22 PM   #33
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If you came in at 10% you were purely lucky, or it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is an entirely bogus number in and of itself.
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:53 PM   #34
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With a new boat: ownership taxes, insurance, berthage, maintenance, and minor improvements are costing me 5% of boat-acquisition cost with most all work done by paid professionals. I expect that percentage to rise with the boat's depreciation and with most ownership costs continuing to rise. After three years now, perhaps the costs are running closer to 10% of the boat's current value.

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Old 08-08-2014, 12:18 AM   #35
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Deckofficer, just assumed you were before me, as you are a little older than me :-) so did you get the honor of sailing on the old Steam Golden Bear or the new cozy diesel one? Don't remember when the retired the old girl
On the 10% thing, I think it is a good "guess" which gives everybody some sort of figure to use. I mean, are you willing to spend $15,000 a year just to own a boat, not including the price of "admission" as Marin stated but does that include the $600 ish/month it will cost to keep it tied to the dock?
And, am I to assume the FL and Cats are both good power plants ? Anything to avoid besides "legacy Volvo's"?
What is the op nion on mid 80's Californians and mid 80's a Defever style boats. They are our favorites so far. Thanks for all the advice/info!
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:45 AM   #36
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Deckofficer, just assumed you were before me, as you are a little older than me :-) so did you get the honor of sailing on the old Steam Golden Bear or the new cozy diesel one? Don't remember when the retired the old girl ...
Golden Bear's latest paint scheme:



Much nicer than the earlier nearly-all-white scheme.
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:52 AM   #37
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Did you CMA men operate the academy's Cub?

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Old 08-08-2014, 01:14 AM   #38
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I mean, are you willing to spend $15,000 a year just to own a boat, not including the price of "admission" as Marin stated but does that include the $600 ish/month it will cost to keep it tied to the dock?
And, am I to assume the FL and Cats are both good power plants ? Anything to avoid besides "legacy Volvo's"?

The annual ownership cost includes everything it costs you to own the boat except finance payments. So the cost of moorage is part of the annual ownership cost.

Engines are like anchors. Everyone has their own opinion about them and they are all correct in the eyes of the person voicing the opinion.

So far as I'm concerned, and based only on my own observation, all the major engine makes are good. Keep in mind that with the exception of Volvo marine diesels, all (I think) the most commonly used marine diesels are simply marinizations of existing truck or industrial/agricultural engines. So the base engine generally has a pretty long history of proven service on shore.

(It is my understanding that Volvo Penta marine diesels were/are designed from the outset to be marine diesels.)

A friend in Hawaii runs a small fleet of longline tuna boats and all of them are fitted with Volvo diesels. He gets very pissed off if he gets less than 30,000 hours out of them between overhauls. And apparently, he rarely has to get pissed off. Parts for Volvo equipment can be pretty expensive. On the other hand, as my friend puts it, if the engine rarely or never needs parts, it doesn't really matter what they cost, right?

I would be far more concerned with the way an engine and its ancillary systems were operated, serviced, maintained, and repaired than in the nameplate on the rocker box and the hours on the Hobbs meter. Unfortunately, it is often very hard to determine how the engine(s) in a used boat were treated by the previous owners. An engine survey by a good engine surveyor will help.

I know people who've had flawless performance for years with Cat engines, and at least one person who's had a lot of trouble with a Cat engine. I can say the same for people we know, have met, or have read about with Ford Lehmans, John Deeres, Cummins, Perkins, Yanmars, Volvos and Detroits. Most of them have had or are getting good service form their engines, regardless of age. A few not so much.

Where an old generation diesel like an FL120 can suffer is if an owner tries to operate it like a new generation engine. The FL120 was designed in the late 1950s and there are some good and bad aspects to its design. It happens to be the type of engine we have in our present boat, and I've tried to learn a lot about them, both from acquaintences in the diesel engine industry here and in the UK. So I think I've got a pretty good handle now on its deficiencies and how to avoid or minimize them.

(If you don't already know, the base engines for the Ford Lehman 90, 120 and 135 were designed and manufactured by Ford of England. Lehman was the New Jersey-based company that marinzed them, along with many other companies around the world.)

Bottom line is that if FL120 is operated and maintained as though the year is 1963, it will most likely live up to its repuation as a 12,000 to 14,000 hour engine in recreational boat service.

If an FL120 is operated as though it's a modern engine designed to run continuously near the upper end of its power range in an effort to make the boat goes faster, it will demonstrate at least one of its several and rather dramatic failure modes sooner rather than later.

So I think it's more important to put some effort into trying to learn how the engine(s) in a used boat were operated and maintained, as well as their current condition (that surveyor thing again) than to spend time worrying about the brand name on the rocker box as long as it's a well known and reputable brand.
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Old 08-08-2014, 01:16 AM   #39
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I believe the Deck guys got to "practice" with the "cub". Us snipes never really got to play her. I always wanted to use her for fishing but guess how that went over with the faculty!
Yea, that new paint looks great, much better. I never sailed on this one except for a "day on the Bay" cruise during fleet week. I sailed on the old "steamer"! I saw she was docked at the old Mare Island yard a few years ago. Do you know if she is still there? By the way, your boat looks great, better than new :-)
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Old 08-08-2014, 01:28 AM   #40
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... Do you know if she is still there? By the way, your boat looks great, better than new :-)
No. It's "gone." ... Thanks, but it is all in the lighting.
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