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Old 12-14-2009, 10:38 AM   #1
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Hey gang,

My name is Mike and I'm from the DC metro area. I currently own a Sea Ray Sundancer but I'm actively looking for a trawler. I've looked at Grand Banks, Albin's, Marine Traders and more. I love the Grand Banks but they are a tad out of my price range. I'm looking to spend no more than about $100k on something under 40 ft.

I recently found this one listed at a marina not too far me.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989.../United-States*


However, I don't know anything about foreign built boats. It does have twin Cummins 150 HP's in it. The owner just told me that they are going to be replacing it with Twin 155's (remanned) since the port motor is experiencing some blow by. He said he'd rather just do both of them and give the new owner a 2 year warranty from Cummins with the replacement motors.

As for me... I'm a USCG OUPV captain. I'm currently in class for my 50 ton masters upgrade which I should have by February. I just got back from*my first*ICW trip from Goose Bay Marina on the Potomac River to Marco Island Florida aboard my buddy's 43 ft'er. That was*a blast and I can't wait to do it again in something like this style of boat.

Anyways... just wanted to get some feed back on Kha Shing and see what others had to say about them....
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:23 AM   #2
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RE: Newbie Here

Kha Shing is your typical Taiwanese yard. You will find all sorts of opinions about that. Anyway, get a good survey is ultimately the bottom line. Also, if you HAVE TO HAVE this boat, I would get with the owner and see what kind of cost is involved with putting remans in there. You could get the boat for a LOT less with existing engines and just repair the one. OR you could have your say into what kind of engines YOU would like to put in there and maybe settle on a price for that to happen. Those engines are likely 4BTs....the 4 cylinder version of the 6BTs. That boat, at the very least, likely has a semi-planing hull and quite likely has a modified V true planing hull. Would you like speed??? If so, a bit more power would go a long way. It seems 300hp would be right at the point of having too much power for a displacement speed boat and not enough to get you over the hump to planing speeds.

BTW, I think his asking price is high considering the market regardless of how new the engines are. A VERY similar boat that I have been watching for 25 grand less....

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989.../United-States

Jeffersons have a tendency to be the better of the Taiwanese built boats. Honestly don't know how they do their QC, but they do have a consistently better product than the other "farmed out" Tawainese builders.

PS....I am a big fan of the sedans!!! I like the one level of living!!

Also, WELCOME ABOARD!!!
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:55 PM   #3
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RE: Newbie Here

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PS....I am a big fan of the sedans!!! I like the one level of living!!

Most sedans have two levels of living. The master stateroom is down forward in the bow.

*
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Old 12-15-2009, 09:14 PM   #4
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RE: Newbie Here

LOL....Here we go again!
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:05 PM   #5
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RE: Newbie Here

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SeaHorse II wrote:

LOL....Here we go again!
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:29 AM   #6
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RE: Newbie Here

Just don't want John leading the self-proclaimed newbie astray now. Hate to see the poor fellow get all excited about doing all his boating on a single deck and then finding out that it just ain't so....
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Old 12-19-2009, 12:18 AM   #7
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RE: Newbie Here

I'm new as well.* I've learned that no two trawlers are alike.* You need to look at the individual boats. Look for a layout that is pleasing to you.* Find a boat that doesn't have water damage to the fuel tanks, decks and house.* There should be records of all the maintenance.*

I'm getting the impression that* 3 out of 100 boats will meet your needs and be sound.
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Old 12-22-2009, 09:14 AM   #8
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Newbie,
Cost of ownership

Vessel age*** *Average annual cost
1-5 years*** * * 8%
5-10 years**** *12%
10-15 years* * 15%
16-25 years*** 18%

The above table illustrates annual average cost of ownership (not including mortgage payment) based on the age of the vessel and the puchase price, including dockage, insurance, fuel and maintenance, including major repairs such as engine overhauls averaged over time.

It is based on the average sale price of a used vessel and should not be applied to clunkers.
assuming the owner will perform all necessary maintenance, as boats get older maintenance is increasingly neglected and for that reason cost of ownership steadily increases.

Older boats cost a lot to own. Of all the law suites ever filed against surveyors 95% of them involve old boats.
SD

-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 01:16:47 PM
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Old 12-22-2009, 11:25 AM   #9
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Older boats cost a lot to own.
I don't necessarily agree with this if the implication is that older boats cost more to own than newer boats.* I'll certainly go along with "boats cost a lot to own" however

Assuming an older boat has been maintained decently and operated properly, its systems and components are wearing out at the same rate as the systems and components on a brand new boat.* The only difference is that if you buy a brand new boat, you start with zero time on everything.* If you buy a used or older boat, there is already time on the components, but if some things have been replaced recently, they may have no more time on them than the same components on a much newer boat.

I once asked the captain of a 120' corporate yacht I was associated with for awhile how the effort and cost of maintaining the vessel he commanded--- which had been built in 1966--- compared to the same expenses for a new or newer yacht.* He pointed to the new 150' yacht on the next dock and said that all the stuff on that vessel was wearing out at the same rate as the stuff on the his vessel.* In fact, he said, his 1966 yacht, which was impeccably maintained, cost less per year in maintenance than a lot of the new yachts he was familiar with because all the systems on his yacht had long since been troubleshot, the quirky problems found and fixed, and so on.* But the skipper and crew of the newer yacht were still tracking down leaks and trying to figure out why when a toilet was flushed in the forward stateroom the water pressure in the aft shower went away, and so on.* Dealing with these kinds of issues can cost major bucks, he said, but it was an expense he didn't have because all these sorts of problems and surprises had long been corrected on his boat decades earlier.* New boat warranties will cover stuff that happens soon after delivery, but he said that boats have a way to popping up surprises long after the warranty has expired.

When I mentioned that my wife and I had recently purchased a then-26-year-old Grand Banks and that we expected it to be more troublesome and costly to keep up he strongly disagreed.* He said that our old GB would cost us no more to own than if we'd bought a new GB.* Unexpected failures occur on new boats as often as they do on old boats, he said, and regular maintenance, service, and replacement of worn components will be the same between both of them.* As to operating costs, fuel costs, moorage, insurance, electricity in the slip, and so on he said these would be basically the same between a 26-year old GB36 and 2 year old GB36.

In the eleven years we have owned our boat, we have found that what this skipper said is right on the money.* We know people with five-year old boats who had to have an engine replaced.* We've had a prop shaft replaced, and so has an acquaintance with a two-year old GB.* We periodically replace macerator pumps, so do our friends with new boats.

So I think the notion that an old boat automatically costs more to own than a newer boat is a fallacy IF...... the older boat has been maintained well and operated correctly.

An older, neglected boat can certainly cost a pile of bucks, but so can a newer, neglected boat.

Now there may be some makes and models of boats that fundamentally deteriorate over time no matter what an owner does with them.* But the basic structure of a boat that's well-built to begin with like a Grand Banks, Krogen, Tollycraft, Hatteras, etc. should give no more problems in 25 or 30 years than it did in 5 years.* Everything else--- plumbing, toilets, pumps, anchor windlasses, electronics, lights, stoves, refrigerators--- are the same kinds of things that are on newer boats and they're all wearing out or deteriorating at the same rates.

One "rule" I have heard that seems to be based on reality is the average age for marine components like refrigerators, pumps, electronics, etc. before they fail are start giving problems is ten years.* Obviously there are exceptions, but this average seems to hold pretty true in our experience.

When we bought our boat, the very experienced broker and GB owner who helped us locate it said that as a very rough rule of thumb, the average cost of ownership of the typical, used, trawler type boat is ten percent of the purchase price per year.* This includes moorage, insurance, fuel, servicing, maintenance, haul outs, repairs, and replacements.* Some years it will be more if you have to have new engine mounts or exhaust systems installed, other years it will be less.* The cost can be lowered if you are able or willing to do some of the work yourself.* But the average over time will be ten percent of the purchase price.* We do most of our own maintenance and upkeep, but we have found that, over the eleven years we've had the boat, that ten percent of the purchase price figure is pretty accurate.* And other boat owners we know, with new boats and old, say they have experienced the same thing.





-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 12:33:54 PM
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:05 PM   #10
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To respond to your comments. There is an exception that proves the rules you have been fortunate. As this thread was on a new boat buyer, I thought it appropo to educate a new buyer about old boats. there's just no getting around the fact that old boats are big problems unless they're really something exceptional. But old boats are not exceptional, they're usually just old. Most people who buy them do so because they can't qualify for a loan on something better. If you take a tour of some lower end boat yards you will find dozens of boats whose owners have gotten in way over there heads There you will see boats with owners being buried by an avalanch of pending repairs and maintenance, but can't afford the enormous cost involved. These are boats nearing the end of there economic life and are soon to pass over the horizon.
When dealing with old boats, we have to figure that every thing that can, will go wrong, and it will in spades. Remember Murphy? What about O'Tools law He's the guy who thought Murphy was overly optimistic. What works today is broken tomorrow. What the surveyor failed to see yesterday is glaringly obvious today. Everything not seen or tested is going to cost a fortune to repair.
Behind the rust and under the paint and under the sludge there are Aligators just waiting to take your whole arm off.
If you find one that has gone thru a refit things can be as good or better than new. the trouble is most old boats are just that old boats. The old saying goe's "I have an old boat and nothing works on it but me"
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-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 01:11:16 PM
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:33 PM   #11
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RE: Newbie Here

I don't disagree with your comments as they pertain to an old boat that has been neglected.* They can indeed be nightmares and horror stories.

What I don't agree with is the oft-held perception that ALL old boats are automatically like this and will automatically require a ton of money to be put right.* I, and I'm sure a lot of people on this forum, know plenty of people who bought an old boat and have had an experience virtually identical to the boating experience enjoyed by* people who bought newer boats.

A large number of the participants on the Grand Banks Owners forum own GBs made prior the middle of 1973.* So not only are they old, they are made out of--- horror of horrors--- wood.* And yet to read the maintenance discussions, apart from the issues dealing specifically with wood maintenance or repair, the experiences and problems the woody owners are dealing with are no different than what the rest of us deal with, even the owners of GBs made in the 1990s and 2000s.* And contrary to popular opinion, the woody owners are using and enjoying their boats as much--- if not more if they are retired and have the time--- than the rest of us.* They are not spending every waking hour in the yard or trying to patch things together and keep the thing afloat and running.

Pointing out the potential pitfalls that can be present in an older boat is one thing.* Saying or implying that all old boats are automatically more expensive to own is misleading because it's simply not true.* A boat buyer, however, has to be aware, or hire someone to be aware for him, of what to look for to make sure that they don't buy an older boat which, through disuse, neglect, or poor maintenance and operation, will prove to be a money pit.
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:01 PM   #12
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Marin,
*********You own a Grand banks. A boat by which standards are set. I did not mean to imply that all old boats are cause for concern. As stated there are exceptions to every rule. If you were to take an average of boats 25 to 30 years old. I am sure you will find my comments hold true.The exceptions being boats built to standards not adheared to by many boat yards. If you buy an older GB. by rights you have something you can count on, by its proven reputation. What about the thousands of other boats out there by hundreds of names. that have come and gone Boats that are mass produced Of questionable methods as well as experimentation. and just poor design. Planned obsolence. My comments are ment to educate not deride a boat buyer. Or owner of older boats. I stand by my statement that old boats cost more to own than newer boats on the average.
****** I have an old boat. 1974 But I have rebuilt it from the roof to the deck. *All systems have been repaired or replaced. Now I basicly have a new boat.** I found what I was looking for a sound hull and engine the rest I replaced I am talking from the wireing to the toilet. It has taken me 6+ years and I have lost track of the money spent. It has been a labor of love and as a close friend owns a boat yard I have *had access to many used but perfectly servicable components for the refit. I know old boats.
Most boat buyers will not have the resources That I have had. *Let the buyer be ware.* an old boat can be a hole in the water.

SD*
-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 02:02:55 PM

-- Edited by skipperdude on Tuesday 22nd of December 2009 02:47:11 PM
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:35 PM   #13
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RE: Newbie Here

Quote:
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Let the buyer be ware.* an old boat can be a hole in the water.


So can a brand new one , depending on how you finance it*

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Old 12-22-2009, 07:50 PM   #14
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RE: Newbie Here

Quote:
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If you were to take an average of boats 25 to 30 years old. I am sure you will find my comments hold true.
This is true if you*are basing your average on*all boats that are 25 or 30 years old.* Because in that "all boats" are going to be a ton of*cheaply made Chris Crafts and Bayliners and Glastrons and all sorts of semi-stamped-out production boats that were aimed at a market that wanted a boat but didn't have much money to put toward one.* That's a huge market, and where there's a market**that big*there will be a lot of companies*competing*to supply it.* So you make a cheap boat that gets the folks out on the water a few times a year and everyone's happy.

The person who I think started this discussion is interested in a trawler.* By their nature, trawler-type boats tend to be more substantial and better built.* So while I have no quarrel with the notion that a neglected trawler of any make can be a disaster and run through a person's entire boating budget before even leaving the dock, I dont' think it's a rule of thumb*assumption that an old trawler will be a headache just because it's old.* It can be, but it's just as likely not to be.* It will all depend on how it was treated all these years.* I believe this applies to CHBs and Island Gypsies and Puget Trawlers and Mainships and Marine Traders*every bit as much as it applies to Grand Banks, Krogen, and Hatteras.
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Old 12-23-2009, 04:43 AM   #15
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RE: Newbie Here

"I dont' think it's a rule of thumb assumption that an old trawler will be a headache just because it's old.

The death of the sealants over time is usually the cause of the slide into DOOM on most boats , weather big buck or cheapos.


When the SEALANTS got old (about 8 years for most) weather the owner did the necessary work is the question, sadly in many (if not most ) cases the cost outweighed the owners pockets.

So a decade or two later the results are one heck of a lot of repairs and catchup.

Any boat with a solid GRP deck should have far less catch up to do.

Though , windlass , stanchions , windows , deck fills and every penetration will be suspect , and probably need re bedding , at least.

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