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Old 09-27-2011, 01:38 PM   #21
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RE: Newbie Advice

Thank you for the clarification FF. It was your response in one of the old threads I was reading that actually made me decide to get off my duff and get going with getting on the water sooner rather than later.

Thank you FF for the motivation, and all of you for tempering my excitement with wisdom.

I am considering reading material. Is Chapmans Guide still regarded as a good reference book? Any others I should consider?
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Old 09-28-2011, 03:35 AM   #22
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RE: Newbie Advice

Is Chapmans Guide still regarded as a good reference book? Any others I should consider?

There are many other starting books that are simpler, but Chapmans is still fine.

I would suggest going to Dave Pascoe web site and reading a bunch of comments on existing boats.

His small boat book might be an eye opener and help you with your first boat.

Except for distance work in open ocean , a small boat can do great cruising at 1/10 to 1/100 the price of a big boat.

The true cost? it will be less comfortable , more like camping.

Want to swim,go over the side , instead of into the pool.

Lots of folks are OK with that.
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Old 09-29-2011, 04:10 PM   #23
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RE: Newbie Advice

Another 2 cents worth, I started boating in the CA Delta 20 yearsago knowing nothing of boating except all my friends were doing it and it was to dang hoy to stay ashore. The delta is a great introduction to boating as it is realtively safe, close and cheap. As oppose to many places that actually have large waves and strong currents, the delta is like bath tub boating. Most of it is less the 12 feet deep or a 1/2 mile wide. So if you get in trouble you can drive or walk to a shore. That this doeen't mean you can't sink or get in to some trouble....but you really have to try compare to most areas. For the calm waters betwen the SF Bay and Stockton or Sacramento ,a Bayliner is a great cheap way to get started.

My first boat was a 36 ft Gibson houseboat, that I took to Stockton and Sacramento from Discovery Bay. Later if you and the boss find you like it you can always step up to another boat. But don't wait thinking you need something to take to Half Moon Bay to get started. 95% of the boats in the delta never go west of Pittsburg, and they are fine with that, there is plenty of good boating to be found around.

Houseboats give you alot of room for the money, but they are slow, so think about how far you want to go on a weeekend and how long you plan to spend on the boat. There are weekend boats and those that are designed to stay out longer. I typically spent alot of weekends out and during the 4th of July, I'll be out for 2 weeks. A 28 express cruiser or 32 bayline might be just the tickey for you and their are alot of them out there.

Get out and enjoy ask questions, we are here to help
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:53 AM   #24
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RE: Newbie Advice

The Boss and I spent the day unscripted getting lost, so to speak on the "Delta Loop". Had a couple boats on the agenda to look for, one sold(thankfully as it had dumb move written all over it).

Met a nice gentleman at a marina and asked the obvious "know of anything for sale?". He politely said no and wife and I headed back to the van. Then it happened, wife said someone just yelled for you back at the dock. Was the polite man I just talked to earlier.

He took us across the marina and onto a boathouse and pointed out a well covered cabin boat about 24ish feet long and maybe 40 years old, outboard powered. Told is the owner is in his late 70's and his health is sketchy. Owned the boat since new and spares no expense maintaing it. We finally found a way to lift a corner of the custom canvas cover and saw a brand new 40 year old boat. He told us the motor starts first kick when the gentleman shows up to polish it(less frequently now).
I plan on contacting marina operator on Monday and seeing about relaying a message to the owner about a possible showing.

My question is simply. How would you feel about receiving an un-solicited inquiry about your boat from a stranger?
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Old 10-02-2011, 04:16 AM   #25
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RE: Newbie Advice

My question is simply. How would you feel about receiving an un-solicited inquiry about your boat from a stranger?

Great , but if its a wood boat , cruising is not the hobby.
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Old 10-02-2011, 02:52 PM   #26
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RE: Newbie Advice

OMG! - Stay with good cond / well built fiberglass boat.* imho

There are several items re fiberglass you should also know.

Google David Pascoe and read, read, read.*

You CAN locate an affordable,*good condition boat - BUT - You can also become saddled with a piece of junk,*or at very*least expensive/time consuming repairs... if you choose the incorrect boat.

We boaters have all had our own "learning" experiences and hope to help you not get blindsided as we sometimes may have been in our early boating lives!

Best O' Luck - Art*

*
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Old 10-02-2011, 05:12 PM   #27
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RE: Newbie Advice

What Art said.* I wouldn't want to guess how many boats are lovingly stored in boathouses and polished by their dedicated owners.* Even in our little marina I could point you at a couple.* The ones I'm thinking of are elegant works of art that you could be proud to be seen aboard but if you gave them to me they'd still be WAY too expensive to own.
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Old 10-03-2011, 09:14 AM   #28
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RE: Newbie Advice

Maybe I missed it but I did not see wood in the comments about the 40 year old boat, you may have found a diamond in the rough. If it is fiberglass I'd make the offer and get a good a really survey. 24 feet is alittle short for two folks to spend alot of time in, I suspect you'd be looking for something larger in a short period of time. Now is the time in the market to get a great dal on a boat, so you might want to cut to the chase and buy something alttle larger that you can stay with for a number of years. Heck my ski boat was almost that size.

The problem with a boat to small, is if she ain't happy you won't be either. They have make alot of improvements in boats in 40 years to the electrical, plumbing, and engines. So what you save by buyig the older boat, you will spend bringing it backto life. But different strokes for different folks, Good luck. If you like the boat make and offer, worst case is you you don't make a friend of a guy you don't know anyways. Up side you you get a boat at a good price and the odler guy gets some money for a new toy. Winner/winner
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:50 AM   #29
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RE: Newbie Advice

Well I never said wood but it is what was described as a fiberglass over wood hull. I know, I wish to avoid wood myself but like a moth to a flame we are inquiring anyway. If only to meet someone described to us as a really neat old man with a nice boat. Most likely pass on a purchase but cannot resist meeting really good characters. Perhaps brighten his day and enhance our knowledge base at the same time. Like the idea of mutually beneficial time spent developing relationships. I will not mislead him nor ask that he go out of his way. Perhaps ask to see him at a time he is planning on being there anyway.

David Pascoe has been a real fountain of information for us. I'm feeling the advice on size as well. We are going to bump up our size range a bit as we have heard from many on our trip to the docks that we may be a little too conservative about our ability to handle a larger craft. Perhaps increase our search to 30' and see what happens.
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:41 PM   #30
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RE: Newbie Advice

My impression reading Pascoe's stuff is that he provides a lot of excellent information but he is very, very biased and often makes blanket negative statements about a particular make or model that, while they may be true for individual boats, are not necessarily true across the entire make or model line. So I view Pascoe as one good source of information but not the be-all, end-all source that some people, particularly him, feel he is.

If you bump your size envelope up to 30-32 feet or so, that opens up a number of good possibilities. One of them, as has been mentioned before, is Bayliner. I'm not all that familiar with their product lines but they made some nice cruisers in their "88" model lineup. They seem to have made these in a number of lengths over the years: 3288, 3388, 3488, 3588, 3688, 3788 and the list apparently goes on. I have no idea what the "88" stands for, but while they appear at first look to be planing-type boats it's my understanding that they are not. They are fairly efficient cruisers. A few years ago we met a couple with a 3488 and they had taken this boat to SE Alaska and back several times and were having a wonderful time with the boat. I am very familiar with the Bayliner jokes and reputation, but I think these have more to do with their owners than with the boats themselves. Bayliner discovered something a lot of other manufacturers probably wish they had, and that was how to make a line of boats with a wide market appeal at prices that a wide market segment could afford. So you tend to get a lot of newbies in Bayliners, and I think that's where the reputation really comes from. Bad operation, not bad boats.

Yes, their small, entry-level trailer boats are nothing to write home about in terms of quality and reliability but their larger boats, from everything I've heard, are quite good. And any boat, even a Grand Banks or a Fleming, can become a piece of junk if it's neglected or poorly maintained.

Bayiiners had/have a huge dealer network--- I've seen them on the Danube River in Austria and on the Seine in Paris--- so decent used ones are most likely available in every part of the US. I believe there is at least one sizable Bayliners owners forum on the web, so I would think it would be pretty easy to learn quite a bit about a particular model you might become interested in.
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:42 PM   #31
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RE: Newbie Advice

Re size we moved up from a 25' Albin to a 32' cruiser (she cruises at 7.5 knots but from an appearance perspective at least I wouldn't call her a trawler) a couple of years ago, and I'd have to say that the larger boat is much easier to handle overall:*
<ul>[*]More room and stability while moving around on the decks during docking and anchoring activities.[*]Much easier to dock, as the smaller boat tended to bob around and let the winds and currents mess with her.[*]Smoother, more stable ride underway during heavy weather.[*]More storage space so that everything can be stowed away without being underfoot, which is important during manoeuvres.[/list]Re transient dock space and anchoring room a 30 or so footer will be accommodated almost as easily as a 25 footer.
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Old 10-04-2011, 02:28 PM   #32
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RE: Newbie Advice

Craig -

I agree with Marin re David Pasco and Bayliner boats.* For a new boater such as you Pasco, who can get a bit too high on his own knowledge, he*is a pretty easy read to get the basics under your belt.* Hes good for refresher reference too as you become boat savvy!* I recommend you take everyone's recommendations with a grain of salt... Mine Too - LOL!* I also agree with most of what Conrad mentions.* And, I probably pretty much agree with what other knowledgeable boaters have said on this thread too.*

Damn...*I am pretty agreeable today, arent I?* Must have been a good biz meeting, confab call this morn!

Anyway... back to boats.* The mention you provide of "fiberglass over wood" on the older boat with the elder owner you may meet... dont know if you already know, but, that now passé style of construction is called "Cold-Lam" It can be a strong form of construction as long as it has good wood and well laid and layered sheets of fiberglass fabric*with a good resin mix worked deeply into all the glass fibers... as well as good glass to wood affixation and hopefully a thick gel coat too.* Problem chances are*that eventually water will work its way between the two materials and rot can wind its way pretty far into the wood before it is recognized.* Therefore older Cold-Lam boats can be a potential major repair risk.* My recommendation, for overall value, simplicity of care, good product looks, resale ability and more hours of enjoyment is well built, good condition fully fiberglass boats.*

In addition to a boats well built hull in general, there are detail construction circumstances re its stringers, bulkheads, transoms, bow stem, keel, decks and superstructure-wall composites/components that are also very important to learn in choosing the best bang for your buck with the least immediate or future repair needs.

As always Good Luck!* Keep On Keeping ON.* I believe you are already hooked on boating...* The best pastime, err lifestyle, ever developed IMHO LOL, Art

*
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:07 PM   #33
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Newbie Advice

Quote:
Art wrote:
...eventually water will work its way between the two materials and rot can wind its way pretty far into the wood before it is recognized.* Therefore older Cold-Lam boats can be a potential major repair risk.
*Having had some experience with a 16' outboard "cruiser" from the 1950s that was fiberglass over wood I can confirm Art's caution.* If water can get between the glass and the wood--- and on an old boat it's almost a given that it can somewhere-- Bad Things start happening very fast.* I learned a lot about the WEST system, which was relatively new at the time, in dealing with that little boat.

Unless you want to learn about hull maintenance and repair at the same time you are learning about cruising, I would suggest that Art's recommendation to look for a solid fiberglass hulled boat is something you should make a priority.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 4th of October 2011 05:07:46 PM
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:33 PM   #34
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RE: Newbie Advice

I'd like to hear more about that wood/FG boat before writing it off. A "solid FG boat" kinda sorta dos'nt exist. Almost all of them have wood in them to the extent that when it rots it's a very serious problem. Bilge stringers made of 2x4,6,8 ect is so common in FG boats that you could basically say they all have them and when they go south you MUST fix them as they are a MAJOR structural member. If I was to buy a new boat it would definitely be wood but with a 40 year old boat it's another matter. Mostly because of decks and cabin structures *....not the hull. And of course a wood boat is made of lots and lots of wood pieces so if you have a problem w one piece you need to replace it And lots of the time to most of the time it's not nearly such big job as stringers and cored deck issues on "solid FG boats". If the old fellows boat is a wood boat w a light FG covering I'd advise to stay clear. If it was manufactured as a composite boat I'd have another look. Almost all buyers today have a serious phobia about wood boats and some of them are great buys largely because of it. I'd buy a wood GB with a good fresh survey now. Quickest way to survey an old wood boat is to look at her cabin and decks *...decks especially at the gunn'el. If it looks good after that go to the hull and find a good surveyor that specializes in wood construction. Most wood boats are'nt the *black hole most people think they are * *.....but they can be.
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:43 PM   #35
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*A "solid FG boat" kinda sorta dos'nt exist.
Not overall, no.* But some makes--- Grand Banks, for example--- has no wood in their fiberglass hulls.* The deck, yes.* They have the typical fiberglass-wood-fiberglass sandwich.* The superstructure*shell of a glass GB*is all fiberglass but the interior framing, bulkheads, etc. are wood.* The cabin tops are also fiberglass-wood-fiberglass sandwiches.

I agree that a good, well-maintained wood boat is not much more of a maintenance chore than the typical fiberglass boat.* But how easy it is to maintain will depend largely on where one lives.* In the rainy*PNW, to keep something like a wood GB in tip-top shape, a boathouse is almost a requirement.* In southern California, probably not so much.* But anytime you see a really nice wood boat in the PNW--- of any makke--- the chances are that when you talk to the owner you'll find that the boat is boathouse-kept.* And with boathouse for 32-46 foot boats running in the neighborhood of $50k to buy--- that seems to be the typical price for a used boathouse in good condition in our marina--- it's not an insignificant factor in the cost of owning the boat.

I like wood boats and I don't feel that it's an inferior buidling material to glass or metal.* But I would never own one myself in this climate.* I don't have the time to maintain it if it's outside-- with my schedule and committments we can barely stay abreast of our fiberglass boat---- and we don't have the funds in our designated boating budget to pay for a boathouse.* Besides, we use our boat year-round, staying on it almost every weekend whether we take it out or not.* We like having a waterfront "condo" with a view of the bay and islands.* We would have little interest in coming up and staying on the boat if it was inside a boathouse.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 4th of October 2011 07:50:51 PM
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:17 PM   #36
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RE: Newbie Advice

I have nothing against wood boats in regard to their available lines of design beauty, structural strength if built correctly, and sea-keeping capabilities; with especially nothing against their sheer wood grain beauty when areas are varnished or oiled and maintained.* Nothing prettier that bright varnished front deck expanse with cabin sides varnished too but OMG the upkeep!* That said I much agree with Marin re the excessive hours and at times expensive needs they too consistently require.* Having decades worked on upkeep and refinishing wood boats in New England... back in the days when fiberglass was still fairly new to the boating world, and now having had and currently owning real good fiberglass boats... to me the difference is night and day as to work efforts of wood compared to fiberglass.* And thats according to me who knows exactly how to maintain a wood craft.* For a newbie, whos on a bit of a budget, I feel any wood boat would be overwhelming, especially and older one.
*
Regarding stringers.* Not all boats have wood cored stringers.* Tollycraft do not.* Tolly stringers have close-cell solid-foam cores with innumerable layers of well applied fiberglass webs that are intricately interwoven directly into the hulls fiber webbing during hull layup.* The foam core was used simply as a form to enable creation of the super rigid fiberglass stringers.* There is no wood in the hull and all portions are way over built.*
*
With due respect... wood boats too can be great craft.* One of the finest boats I ever experienced was during the 60s.* It was a simply stellar 37 raised deck, caravel planked, single screw, FB convertable sport fisher whose keel was laid and hull constructed in 1951/52 at Freeport Point Ship Builders NY, and whose decking, superstructure and interior was hand completed by Brooklyn Navy Yards master shipwright.* She was affectionately named Spitfire in respect for WWII planes my dad flew in RCAF **But, especially in this day and age, wood boats should be owned by mariners who know how to take care of them.* Not newbies just getting into the boating world.* **
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Old 10-05-2011, 04:46 PM   #37
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RE: Newbie Advice

Quote:
*In addition to Bayliner--- who made some very nice boats, by the way--- a make with a much more substantial reputation is Tollycraft.* They are very popular and common in the PNW in sizes from 26' to 50' and over.* I don't know how popular they were farther south in SFO and the rest of California.*
But I know several people who got into "bigger" boat boating with a Tolly 26 and had a great time with them.* They are single-engine, gas-powered via an inboard and*V-drive.* The people I know who bought Tolly 26s paid from $16,000 to $20,000 or so although this was several years ago.

*

*Craig, I love my Tolly 26 and have found it to be a great boat for big water and comfortable living. We camp in ours on Lake Powell 10-14 days at a time with no problems. We don't trailer ours as it didn't come with one and so we keep it slipped at Wahweap Marina. I think you would be very happy with a Tolly as your first cruiser. We are. Good Luck,

*

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Old 10-05-2011, 08:43 PM   #38
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RE: Newbie Advice

In the 50s when basically all there were was was wood boats everyone complained about maintenance on boats and it's not much different now. We had flat head gas engines (real marine engines by the way) nothing but oil based paints and caulking (plus oakum and cotton) and most boaters got the job done and had a great time on their boats. I had a girlfriend whose dad had a beautiful 36' Cris Craft bull nosed tri cabin cruiser w twin Buick V6s. I was ga ga over the girl so you can imagine the heaven I was in aboard that boat. We went from Edmonds to Mystery Bay several times and her dad ran that old Chris to Ketchikan eventually. Considered it a high mark on the tree. Since there IS much less maintenance on FG boats many more people are boat owners now since a great deal of those people think FG boats are maintenance free. About 1/3 less than wood I'd say and the majority of the new FG boat owners are so lazy they can't even handle that. If you actually made a maintenance free boat people would complain that it takes too much time to clean it. Re: some of the stuff we've been talking about on OTDE perhaps the government will soon have boat maintenance vouchers for people that make less than $200K. Getting old gives one a perspective that is unobtainium for younger folks. But wood boat ownership is a lot easier now that we have all that modern stuff like epoxy and polly paints so if you buy a wood boat all the time you can think about those people in the 50s and 60s that had more work than you and had basically just as much fun*on the water.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:07 PM   #39
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RE: Newbie Advice

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
In the 50s when basically all there were was was wood boats everyone complained about maintenance on boats and it's not much different now. We had flat head gas engines (real marine engines by the way) nothing but oil based paints and caulking (plus oakum and cotton) and most boaters got the job done and had a great time on their boats. I had a girlfriend whose dad had a beautiful 36' Cris Craft bull nosed tri cabin cruiser w twin Buick V6s. I was ga ga over the girl so you can imagine the heaven I was in aboard that boat. We went from Edmonds to Mystery Bay several times and her dad ran that old Chris to Ketchikan eventually. Considered it a high mark on the tree. Since there IS much less maintenance on FG boats many more people are boat owners now since a great deal of those people think FG boats are maintenance free. About 1/3 less than wood I'd say and the majority of the new FG boat owners are so lazy they can't even handle that. If you actually made a maintenance free boat people would complain that it takes too much time to clean it. Re: some of the stuff we've been talking about on OTDE perhaps the government will soon have boat maintenance vouchers for people that make less than $200K. Getting old gives one a perspective that is unobtainium for younger folks. But wood boat ownership is a lot easier now that we have all that modern stuff like epoxy and polly paints so if you buy a wood boat all the time you can think about those people in the 50s and 60s that had more work than you and had basically just as much fun*on the water.
*Touché Willy, Mr. Nomad!
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:07 PM   #40
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RE: Newbie Advice

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:
. Re: some of the stuff we've been talking about on OTDE perhaps the government will soon have boat maintenance vouchers for people that make less than $200K.
No, given the determination this country has to take from the rich to pay for the lazy, what will happen is people with fiberglass and metal*boats will have to pay a special "wood deficit" tax tied to a complex forumula that includes the*value, length, and*displacemen of their boat.* This tax will be used to fund a bailout program designed to fund one hudred percent of*the maintenance costs incurred by the owners of wood boats.
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