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Old 07-06-2012, 05:52 PM   #1
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New Guy on the Forum

Hi - I just wanted to introduce myself before I began plying you guys (asexual "guys" for you political correctness junkies) with a seemingly unending series of questions. The questions have a single objective: to buy one blue-water trawler, live on it, and spend my remaining days drifting about the Caribbean, Florida Keys, Florida coast, and the upper Chesapeake.

I'm focused exclusively on full-displacement boats. If it goes over 9-10 knots, I am not interested.

My background is decidedly not nautical, but I grew up on the Chesapeake with my 18 foot tri-hull. I recently sold my home in Florida and now live about 45 minutes from the Chesapeake. I am a quick study and will take some courses from the Coast Guard/Power Squadron and will probably do a week-long hands-on course at the Annapolis School of Seamanship.

So far, I've just been searching the Internet for "boat porn" while truthfully trying to determine which boats are full-displacement. So far, I have only been able to identify these brands: Nordic Tug, Cheoy Lee, Great Harbor, and Kadey-Krogen. Who am I missing?

Thanks in advance for your patience with me.

MilShooter
(It's a long story...)
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:02 PM   #2
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Welcome aboard!

TBH, if you look back just a few pages in the General Forum, you will find a few noobz to the forum asking similar questions. You will also see that in a matter of minutes, someone is going to ask you some more probing questions to get a better picture of what you will need to look for and where to find it.

That is... before it turns into an anchor debate or a argument about whether single engine or dual engine setup is better for you.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:10 PM   #3
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Greetings,
Welcome aboard Mr. MS. The first question that comes to mind is why a blue water boat? For the waters you list for your future drifting, a well found coastal cruiser could fill the bill. Not trying to dissuade you at all, just playing the devil's advocate.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:13 PM   #4
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Greetings,
Hahahaha....Mr. G, 8 minutes and that's just because I type slowly with one finger. My other finger is in a sling due to a wardrobe malfunction...also a long story...
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:14 PM   #5
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Hull shape is a continuum with "full displacement" at one end and "fully planing" at the other extreme. My Malibu Response hardly disturbs the surface of the water at 40 MPH. If I run it at 4 MPH its full displacement. When the marketing guys get involved it depends what they think the target audience wants so a lot of things get called "full displacement" that I might prefer to call something else and similarly a lot of things get called "semi-planing" that are a long way from breaking free of their bow wave. Of the boats on your list I'm not familiar with Great Harbor and I'd likely not call most Nordic Tugs full displacement. Nordhavn, Selene, some of the Defever designs, Ocean Alexander would be just a few of the common displacement vessels you will see on the water. For the cruising you have outlined I would be less concerned about some mystical "full displacement" designation and more concerned with a layout and mechanicals that suit your requirements. And I see RTF has already headed in that direction.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:23 PM   #6
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"Hi - I just wanted to introduce myself before I began plying you guys (asexual "guys" for you political correctness junkies)"

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! "asexual/politically correct"? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:01 PM   #7
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Nordic Tugs are not displacement boats. They are semi-planing and can be pushed along at a pretty good clip.

In addition to the Krogen, other displacement boats are Willards, Nordhavns, Lord Nelson Victory Tugs, and some Hatteras models.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:08 PM   #8
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OH COME ON!!! Almost 3 hours and nobody asked what his budget is? You guys disappoint me.
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:04 PM   #9
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Milshooter, my advice would be to buy a large shrimp boat or commercial fishing boat and redu it. Sounds like you, from your short introduction, are a take hold kind of fella. Sounds like your fishing for advice and you already know the answer. Bite the bullet and roll up your sleeves and get to work. There is nothing you can buy and do the crusing you want to do and be satisfied. (unless you buy new and are involved with the build.) Post some pictures, I will be interested in your purchase.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:16 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
Welcome aboard Mr. MS. The first question that comes to mind is why a blue water boat? For the waters you list for your future drifting, a well found coastal cruiser could fill the bill. Not trying to dissuade you at all, just playing the devil's advocate.
First answer: the destinations listed were for the near term of 3 years or so. Longer term ideas are not yet plans, but only dreams and they include the southeast Pacific as well as a possible run to Europe and the Med.

A secondary reason for a "blue water" boat or one that could survive any sea is two previous experiences on trawlers with a semi-displacement hulls. A following sea in one instance and getting caught in the run-up to a hurricane convinced me that anything other than a blue water boat would cause unnecessary wear on my sphincter.

In both instances, I was on a friend's boat and in each case, it suffered quite a lot of damage. The following sea put us up against pilings and a bit later, into the riff-raff (I think that's what the rocks were called). The Captain simply could not control the boat as it was tossed around. The hurricane simply pounded the boat so badly that decks separated from the hull.

While it may cost me more in the beginning, I will hopefully only have to buy one boat for the rest of my cruising days. But I am not wealthy, so a new boat of this type is out of reach for me.

Just FYI, I am a single guy. A lot of my journeys will be made single-handed.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:19 PM   #11
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"Hi - I just wanted to introduce myself before I began plying you guys (asexual "guys" for you political correctness junkies)"

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! "asexual/politically correct"? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
When you're new to a forum, I've found it best to try NOT to ruffle feathers. I am normally quite direct.

I will take your indirect advice under consideration.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:05 AM   #12
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Hull shape is a continuum with "full displacement" at one end and "fully planing" at the other extreme. My Malibu Response hardly disturbs the surface of the water at 40 MPH. If I run it at 4 MPH its full displacement. When the marketing guys get involved it depends what they think the target audience wants so a lot of things get called "full displacement" that I might prefer to call something else and similarly a lot of things get called "semi-planing" that are a long way from breaking free of their bow wave. Of the boats on your list I'm not familiar with Great Harbor and I'd likely not call most Nordic Tugs full displacement. Nordhavn, Selene, some of the Defever designs, Ocean Alexander would be just a few of the common displacement vessels you will see on the water. For the cruising you have outlined I would be less concerned about some mystical "full displacement" designation and more concerned with a layout and mechanicals that suit your requirements. And I see RTF has already headed in that direction.
Sorry to quote your whole message, but I'm too tired right now to tear it into chunks for response.

I understand that some terms cause a visceral response in others much as the term "full displacement" caused in you. I would gladly call it something else, but I don't have a term for it yet.

While "full displacement" may be a marketing term in some boat lines, I intended it to mean full-keeled with ballast, soft chines, most probably with a soft or well-rounded stern or transom (not squared-off), and incapable of traveling past 10 knots or so (an arbitrary limit, so don't bust my chops about it later).

I have done some research on Nordhavn and will keep it on my list, but even the older ones are beyond my wallet. As to the Selenes, I've tried several times to make sense of their web site, but it is so poorly done that I gave up (Look at me!!! I use FLASH!!! WHEEEEE!!!). There is not even any way listed there to contact them. I was blissfully unaware that Nordic Tugs were not full displacement hulls. That's why I'm here - to learn a bit more than I've been able to discover on my own. For example, I've never hear the name Ocean Alexander before but now that you mentioned them, I will investigate.

As to the "mythical" full-displacement, I think I'll stick with it. If you can give me a better descriptor, I'll change.

As to your statement,
Quote:
And I see RTF has already headed in that direction.
I don't understand what is meant by RTF.

As for me, the form must follow function. That is to mean that I think you have it backwards with the focus on interior layout before hull design. My first law of opaque inclusion fits:

Even though I might love the interior design and even the mechanicals, I would reject any boat who's hull was not the mythical full displacement. Conversely, given a hull with a proper design, I don't worry so much about interior design. Certainly mechanicals are a very strong #2 for me, but a boat can be repowered (given enough money), but it can't very well get a new hull.

I was lying about the the first law of opaque inclusion. I just made it up.

I do have further desires other than the proper hull. Let me get into it just a bit for now. I'm looking for something in the (approximately) 40 foot range, having a single diesel engine, a generator, fiberglass construction, no more than $200K (after refurbishment if necessary), 2 helms, and preferably, a galley-up layout, drawing less than 5 feet. Of course there are an awful lot of "wanna-haves", but they're just window dressing like open array radar and bow & stern thrusters with stabilizers. I'm focused on learning more about hull shapes and builders of my preferred hull shapes. Then I can unlimber my list of wants...

I really only need one stateroom as long as there is some provision for creating a bed from the settee or some such. I would also really like some sort of rear deck from which I could fish. I've seen many "trunk" trawlers and some double cabin displacement yachts (not trawlers really) with no meaningful rear deck space. Finally, I want to have range measured in thousands of miles, not hundreds. As I mentioned in an earlier response, I want to do some serious blue water cruising in the future.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention that I have some physical impairments. While they won't stop me from cruising, they would prevent me from crawling below decks to service a stainer or something on the engine. So I really, really want to have a boat with a stand-up engine room. Can it be had in a 40 foot boat?

Needless to say, I'd like low hours on the engine and generator, but sometimes, a well maintained higher-hours engine would be better. Who knows?

All said, even if I were to find a wonderfully kept Grand Banks with a nice layout and great mechnicals for a modest price, I would pass. This was the brand of boat I was on when a following sea caught the Captain off guard and sustained so much damage. (Earlier response.)

More later, I suppose.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:11 AM   #13
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Nordic Tugs are not displacement boats. They are semi-planing and can be pushed along at a pretty good clip.

In addition to the Krogen, other displacement boats are Willards, Nordhavns, Lord Nelson Victory Tugs, and some Hatteras models.
As I just wrote in response to someone else, I was unaware that Nordic Tugs were semi-planing. I guess I assumed from their name that they would be so.

Thanks for the advice on the Willard and Lord Nelson Victory Tugs - I had never heard these name before. Not that it makes much difference to me, but are they made in America, England, Taiwan, Hong Kong?

As to the Hatteras, I just have a devil of a time figuring out the various model names and the nicknames people have for them. I was aware that they made some "slow boats", but finding them is close to impossible when a search on Yacht World turns up a list of hundred of boats for sale. Do you have any specific model names that might help?
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:19 AM   #14
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Milshooter, my advice would be to buy a large shrimp boat or commercial fishing boat and redu it. Sounds like you, from your short introduction, are a take hold kind of fella. Sounds like your fishing for advice and you already know the answer. Bite the bullet and roll up your sleeves and get to work. There is nothing you can buy and do the crusing you want to do and be satisfied. (unless you buy new and are involved with the build.) Post some pictures, I will be interested in your purchase.
Spoken like a guy who has what looks like a converted shrimp boat!

I am not able to redo a boat like you suggest. I have some physical limitations that prevent it.

I can't afford to commission a new boat. I haven't hit the lottery.

Anyway, I think I am still far from buying anything. I am just trying to learn about all of the different trawlers out there so that I can continue to narrow-down my choices.

So far, I am leaning toward the Kadey-Krogens, but they're also rather pricey unless I go with a really old boat. I may have to do just that. But honestly, I am still evaluating the various trawlers that have been built since about 1980. My list has about 15 manufacturers so far, but I would guess the truth is closer to 30 or so. I just haven't found them yet.

I'm not trolling and I haven't come to any firm conclusions other than I've stated in various responses I've made tonight.

I'll just spend the weekend surfing the interweb for more data.

Regards...
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:24 AM   #15
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As a Krogen owner, I can hgihly recommend the Krogens. Great boats, great company. Without knowing your price range, it is a bit difficclut to offer much in the way of suggestions. But you can find older 36' Manatees $250K and under, 39' Krogens (early 2000's) for $400K and under, and 42' for 250-350K. These are all well built and well supported boats.

The problem comes when you want to go trans-oceanic. Getting to the Med ot SE Pacific, You need to go bigger, at least the 48' Krogen, and thus more expensive.

Best of luck.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:36 AM   #16
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Anyway, I think I am still far from buying anything. I am just trying to learn about all of the different trawlers out there so that I can continue to narrow-down my choices.
Sounds like the right measured careful approach. Lots of boats for sale and it`s hard to resell if you buy the wrong one.
I think it`s a mistake narrowing the field by excluding anything not "full displacement", but respect it`s your $ and your choice.Do you really need to plan for a hurricane? There`s a heap of hull variations between "planing' and "displacement". Maybe keep an open mind as you progress on the learning curve you`ve set. And with your kind of cruising plans consider twin engines, or at least some kind of auxiliary set up to get home.
Can`t wait to hear some GB responses. May need a heat exchanger for my laptop. BruceK
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:10 AM   #17
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Any boat can get tossed around and onto rocks and into pilings. I can show you photos of displacement salmon trollers that ended up in just such situations. So the kind of hull you have is no guarantee of no problems. Your statement is sort of like saying "I was in an accident in a (name your car here) so I'm never going to get that kind of car because they are prone to accidents."

From your minimal description of your experience it sounds like the outcome would have been the same had the boat been a GB, CHB, Fleming (bazillions of dollars), deFever, Eastbay, Bayliner, etc, etc, etc. Sounds like your problem was your skipper and his judgement and abilities or lack of them, not the kind of boat you were in.

Full displacement is a meaningless term since a boat is either displacement or it's not. If it's not, it's semi-planing or fully planing. Or submersible. You can certainly use whatever term you like--- none of our boats are trawlers, either, unless someone here happens to have a boat with trawl gear installed--- but displacement is the only word you need to describe that type of hull.

Your budget will determine what's possible and what isn't. Most of the boats we've been talking about---- Nordhavn, Krogen, Victory Tug, Hatteras, Selene, etc.--- are pretty pricey even used. If they're not, there's a good reason and in the end, you will either have to spend as much as you would have had to spend to buy a newer boat of the same type, or you will have to lower your sights and get a different type of boat.

One displacement boat that has been mentioned here that is generally priced relatively inexpensively is the Willard. Particularly the smaller 30-foot models. Excellent design, well built, but only you can determine if this boat would be large enough for what you want to do.

Boats are never-ending expenses. The easy part is coming up with the purchase price. The hard part is covering the ownership costs every year which the very general rule of thumb says is ten percent of the purchase price of the boat per year as long as you own the boat. Ownership costs are everything associated with owning, insuring, mooring, maintaining, and running the boat except finance payments if you finance the boat.

A piece of advice I read back in the 1960s in a magazine article could be very apropos in your situation, and that is to "buy the smallest boat you can afford." By which is meant that if you have x-amount of dollars to spend, the smaller a boat you buy the newer or better condition it will be in. Obviously you don't want to buy a boat that's too small for your requirements. If you absolutely need a 40' boat to do what you want, buy a 40' boat. But don't buy a 50' boat just because you find one you can afford with your x-amount of dollars if a 36' boat will suit your requirements. For the same x-amount of dollars you will almost always be able to get a 36' boat in far better condition than a 50' foot boat.

Based on what you say you want in a boat, and the fact you are not prepared to do most of the work on it yourself, I would say that unless you approach this with at the very least $200,000 for purchase and preferably more, you are most likely to be disappointed. (That's a debatable statement, I know, but that's what I happen to think.) And if that's what you buy a boat for, don't forget to earmark $20k for annual ownership costs. Some years will be less, some more, but that ten percent per year figure generally works out to be pretty accurate over the long run unless you buy a brand new boat.

Yes, you can buy a great boat for a whole lot less than $200k. But if you want a boat capable of open ocean cruising you need a reliable boat, not a project boat, and you need one capable in terns of its design, construction, and equipment of making the journey safely. And these types of boats are not cheap, even used, unless you are willing to settle for a very old one or a beater, both of which will require a huge amount of work and/or money to get them up to the point where you can truly depend on them.

If you can do the work yourself over several years like some of the members of this forum are doing, you can end up with a lot more boat for a lot less money. But if, as you imply, you are not in a position to do much of your own work on the boat you'll be hiring the work out and at yard and shop rates that are approaching $100 an hour these days, the bills are pretty impressive when they come in.

Good luck with your search. There are zillions of boats out there of every possible type, description, and condition. If it's meant to be, you'll find one to suit your purposes even if you have to morph your purposes around a bit to fit reality.

And remember, this is supposed to be fun.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:24 AM   #18
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MilShooter-

You might spend more time in Yachtworld than on this forum.

You mind is made up and it is woefully confused to seaworthiness and even what you want or need.

Based on "your wallet" and not affording Norhaven's...my guess is that only intensive reasearching will find a "bluewater, displacement trawler" within your budget.

Right off the bat you dismissed a lot of good advice for thinking the way you do that "full displacement" makes a boat more seaworthy than the next....and you are so locked on that even your examples disprove that theory like Marin suggested.

So good luck with your vessel search and ultimate cruising....I hope you get there but your approach MAY (I won't say IS) be terribly flawed.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:38 AM   #19
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Greetings,
Mr. MS. RTF would be a reference to my moniker-Rufus T. Firefly. I commend your approach to your future floating. Research, research, research. As Mr. Marin mentioned, there are a zillion boats out there. Since you are in the initial stages of planning/looking, your current wants and desires may change over time which is fair enough. It's a process we all have gone through. The "hunt" is 90% of the fun and using your new baby is the other 100%.
In my case, even if money were no object, I would be hard pressed to decide on a replacement for the craft I currently have the use and care of. Well, not really...Crewed vessel capable of world cruising....Hahahah....Ya right!!
Keep up the search and keep those questions coming. I think we all enjoy the vicarious quest other members experience when shopping.
I can appreciate your desire for a walk in ER and I'm sure other members will have suggestions but alas, I know of none in your price slot that fit the bill.
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:23 AM   #20
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Gary,

I think you are being a bit over optimistic about the overall expectations and capabilities of your first yacht. I would venture a guess that 99% of all the members here do not have a proper open ocean capable vessel. TBH, ocean crossings are far more the domain of the sailing community. In a nutshell, sailboats dance WITH the sea and powerboats fight it. It takes WEEKS to cross the Pacific, and even with a fully open weather window, you would be hard pressed to find an affordable powerboat with the fuel capacity for such a voyage. Nor, is that any task that can be done safely solo. So, not to put too fine a point on it, you really need to put the ideas of traveling the seven seas to bed.

We too had the feeling for exploring the extreme locations around the world, but the reality is that we have had the boat for three years now and have been no more than 200 miles from home port and have enjoyed it all. I don't want to piss in your Corn Flakes. Not at all. Just to turn your expectations toward the reality of the situation. There is a LOT to see in Florida alone. The Keys, the west coast... and while 99% or our boats my not be able to cross the vast oceans, 99% of them CAN cross the Gulf Stream to the Bahamas.

Many sailors, in both sail and power craft, spend their entire boating lives exploring the 1000's of islands of the Bahamas and Caribbean. With a fair amount of planning and experience with both passage making and weather, you can be more than a little happy with a boat that falls within some realistic parameters.

I really don't want to ruin the fantasy. We all have them about where we would love to go with our boats, but there are always compromises in boating. Unless you can afford a very large ocean-going yacht or can afford the $1000/ft to ship your boat around the world (and it sounds like neither are true), get a good solid craft that you can handle alone and enjoy the far reaches of your local area. As you gain experience, look into doing The Great Loop (or The Great Circle) and enjoy what the Eastern US has to offer. Perhaps take a look at The Bahamas as I mentioned.

There are ALWAYS exceptions to what I said above and I am quite sure that some of the guys DO have boats that can (or have) crossed oceans, but as a general rule, most of us do not and I know very few that would even want to try the journey. It's just too dangerous. Displacement or otherwise.

Can you tell us your budget and put up some links to boats you are looking at? I think it will help us give you the most effective advice.

Tom-
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