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Old 07-07-2012, 11:10 AM   #21
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Greetings,
I think Mr. MS mentioned he'd like to keep his initial purchase under $200K.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:11 PM   #22
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What Marin said X2. Buy the smallest boat that will do what you want it to do - you'll thank him when you pay for haulouts, moorage, fuel and when you dock it single handed.

That said, if you want to cross oceans then I don't think its realistic in under 45 feet and it will be a lot more comfortable at 60 feet. And figure $200k at a bare minimum.

As far as engine rooms go, a short man can stand up in my 43 Defever. I'm 6-7 and its not uncomfortable for me to work down there. I believe that some of the Hatts with 2 engine rooms separated by a companionway are also pretty accessible but I've never been in one. I have also seen engine rooms that a garter snake would have difficulty accessing.

We started out thinking we wanted to cross oceans. Then we scaled that back to maybe going through Panama so we could do the loop. Currently we plan to go to Alaska next spring and I doubt we'll ever move the boat out of the PNW. The more we learn the more we realize how much diversity in cruising experiences there is right at home. So be prepared for your plans to change.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:54 PM   #23
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Greetings,
I think Mr. MS mentioned he'd like to keep his initial purchase under $200K.
I think that was Marin's number
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:35 PM   #24
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I think that was Marin's number

Post 12 I think...

I do have further desires other than the proper hull. Let me get into it just a bit for now. I'm looking for something in the (approximately) 40 foot range, having a single diesel engine, a generator, fiberglass construction, no more than $200K (after refurbishment if necessary),
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:38 PM   #25
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The questions have a single objective: to buy one blue-water trawler, live on it, and spend my remaining days drifting about the Caribbean, Florida Keys, Florida coast, and the upper Chesapeake.

I'm focused exclusively on full-displacement boats. If it goes over 9-10 knots, I am not interested.

MilShooter
With all due respect the only thing keeping you from finding hundreds, if not thousands, of boats available that would suit your desired goals is the "Blue Water" requirement.

A 40 foot, blue water, trans-oceanic, thousands+ mile range, displacement boat under for $200,000 including upgrades and outfitting is called a sail boat.

Throw out the Atlantic crossing and a lifetime of coastal and near coastal cruising is easily attainable.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:16 PM   #26
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there may be a one off, bluewater, steel cruiser for under $200K set up just for this mission but...but...well, I'll just go back to my first post that suggests the OP looking for it hard rather than getting advice he doesn't want here.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:24 PM   #27
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Post 12 I think...

I do have further desires other than the proper hull. Let me get into it just a bit for now. I'm looking for something in the (approximately) 40 foot range, having a single diesel engine, a generator, fiberglass construction, no more than $200K (after refurbishment if necessary),
Dag-gum... There it is right there. I swear I looked everywhere for it. O well. Thanks!
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:26 PM   #28
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Dag-gum... There it is right there. I swear I looked everywhere for it. O well. Thanks!

When I use numbers like $200,000 I always bold it, put it in italics, underline it and possibly put it in red...make me feel better...kinda like running my hands though it if it were in $20s....
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Old 07-07-2012, 05:58 PM   #29
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I am also a new guy on the forum. I just joined yesterday and asked for some feedback on this boat. It's one you might take a look at.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...url=&imc=pg-fs
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Old 07-07-2012, 06:20 PM   #30
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[QUOTE=MikeM;93076]I am also a new guy on the forum. I just joined yesterday and asked for some feedback on this boat. It's one you might take a look at.



Looks like a lot of boat for the buck. Beautiful interior.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:28 PM   #31
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As a Krogen owner, I can hgihly recommend the Krogens. Great boats, great company. Without knowing your price range, it is a bit difficclut to offer much in the way of suggestions. But you can find older 36' Manatees $250K and under, 39' Krogens (early 2000's) for $400K and under, and 42' for 250-350K. These are all well built and well supported boats.

The problem comes when you want to go trans-oceanic. Getting to the Med ot SE Pacific, You need to go bigger, at least the 48' Krogen, and thus more expensive.

Best of luck.
Thank you very much for the opinion and information on the Krogens. I read an article (I think...my mind gets hazy after reading so many articles) wherein the owner made a trans-Atlantic crossing in a 42' Krogen. It was probably in Passage Maker magazine, but I forget the specifics. I just remember that it was 5 guys who did it. But if I really need a 48' Krogen (fuel capacity?) to make the crossing, I'll have to reevaluate my objectives because there is no way I can come up with the cash to buy a 48' boat while also paying HUGE slip fees if I dock for a season.

(... Just a bit later) Not to beat the dead horse of my dream to get to the Med on a dinghy, but I think the Azores are about 1,600 miles from Newfoundland and about 1,800 from Bermuda, which are within the safe range of the older 42' Krogen. I found the article I mentioned - it was in Power Cruising magazine - and they took at 44' Krogen from New Jersey to Holland, making their first landfall in the Azores. They then went to England, but could have made European landfall in Portugal. Then on to the Med.

What model & year of Krogen do you have? How long have you owned it? And most importantly, how do you use your boat and what is your biggest complaint?

To be perfectly honest, I was considering training at the Annapolis School of Seamanship, which is offered on a 48' Krogen. Maybe I should look for training on a smaller boat and forget about ocean crossing. Or maybe I can look into one of the boat transport services...just thinking out loud.

Thanks for the comments. All are appreciated even when they show-off my idiotic dreams as idiotic.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:45 PM   #32
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Thanks for the comments. All are appreciated even when they show-off my idiotic dreams as idiotic.
Not a thing at all idiotic about dreams, we all have them. This forum has been invaluable to me to help "put feathers on the dart" that are my dreams.

The biggest obstacle I had to overcome so far is separating the purchase price of the boat from the operating expense of the boat. I can purchase far more boat than I would like to support. I'm afraid that without the advice from this group I would have bit off way more than I would have wanted to chew long term.

Some of the best advice I'd received to date was start out with the smallest boat that will suit your current need. I'm very happy I did. Wife and kids enjoy the heck out of our little sailboat and look forward to stepping up the size when the right boat comes along.
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:49 PM   #33
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Sounds like the right measured careful approach. Lots of boats for sale and it`s hard to resell if you buy the wrong one.
I think it`s a mistake narrowing the field by excluding anything not "full displacement", but respect it`s your $ and your choice.Do you really need to plan for a hurricane? There`s a heap of hull variations between "planing' and "displacement". Maybe keep an open mind as you progress on the learning curve you`ve set. And with your kind of cruising plans consider twin engines, or at least some kind of auxiliary set up to get home.
You are absolutely right about a get-home system but I am not a big fan of 2 engines - because I will undoubtedly find some shoals in my cruising and it seems to me that most dual engine setups have largely unprotected props and shafts.

You've also made a good point of not eliminating a boat or manufacturer based simply on "full displacement". In fact, you and others here have caused me to broaden my search already. I can honestly say that, within this brief exchange, I've learned quite a lot. My main intent in joining this forum was to gather others' opinions based on experience. And the collective experience here has broadened my search to other boats that I did not previously consider. And I AM now considering the boat's layout as well as the hull and power plant.

As to planning for a hurricane, I think my personality makes me think about the worst scenario. And for me, solo in a boat, a hurricane ranks up there with unpleasant things that can happen to me. I had a sail boating friend who's worst fear was demasting but that didn't stop him from sailing.

As I said, I am here to learn and to challenge my opinions and self-defined biases. Broadly, then, I backed-up on my criteria to enable me to learn about and select the perfect trawler for me.

About the only things I know for certain now are: I want a diesel powered trawler (not a sail boat) of a length that is suitable for my intended purpose, costing no more than $200,000 fully outfitted/refitted.

How's that for a retreat? (smile)

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Can`t wait to hear some GB responses. May need a heat exchanger for my laptop. BruceK
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have picked on the Grand Banks. What happened on that boat would have hurt many/most boats.

To all the GB owners I've offended, I offer my sincere apologies. Although I had a bad experience on a Grand Banks, I have no other data to suggest that they are anything but than well-built boats. After all, they are the market-maker in trawlers and that many owners of GB's can't be wrong.

Mea culpa.
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:02 PM   #34
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Any boat can get tossed around and onto rocks and into pilings. I can show you photos of displacement salmon trollers that ended up in just such situations. So the kind of hull you have is no guarantee of no problems. Your statement is sort of like saying "I was in an accident in a (name your car here) so I'm never going to get that kind of car because they are prone to accidents."

From your minimal description of your experience it sounds like the outcome would have been the same had the boat been a GB, CHB, Fleming (bazillions of dollars), deFever, Eastbay, Bayliner, etc, etc, etc. Sounds like your problem was your skipper and his judgement and abilities or lack of them, not the kind of boat you were in.

Full displacement is a meaningless term since a boat is either displacement or it's not. If it's not, it's semi-planing or fully planing. Or submersible. You can certainly use whatever term you like--- none of our boats are trawlers, either, unless someone here happens to have a boat with trawl gear installed--- but displacement is the only word you need to describe that type of hull.
Thanks for your succinct and honest response. Of course, you are correct. And I was wrong to paint all boats by a manufacturer with my broad, misaligned stroke. Also, I will stop using the term “full displacement” and instead just use “displacement trawler”. Combined with others’ responses, I finally understand the objections to the use of “full displacement”.

What I meant to imply was that I am not interested in semi- or full-planing boats. I think that current marketing calls them “fast trawlers”. I just don’t want to expend the fuel these boats typically use. Although I don’t believe everything I read in print, I did recently read an article by a fellow who tried to replicate the fuel economy of a displacement trawler with his “fast trawler” traveling at slow speeds of 8 knots. He just couldn’t do it. From the article, I think I learned that hull design does have an impact on fuel economy and performance in excess of hull speed. Hopefully, I’ve not made another error.

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Your budget will determine what's possible and what isn't. Most of the boats we've been talking about---- Nordhavn, Krogen, Victory Tug, Hatteras, Selene, etc.--- are pretty pricey even used. If they're not, there's a good reason and in the end, you will either have to spend as much as you would have had to spend to buy a newer boat of the same type, or you will have to lower your sights and get a different type of boat.

One displacement boat that has been mentioned here that is generally priced relatively inexpensively is the Willard. Particularly the smaller 30-foot models. Excellent design, well built, but only you can determine if this boat would be large enough for what you want to do.
I am rapidly finding out that my purse is not big enough for the type/size/maker of the boat I wanted. I had never heard of Willard. But I just did a quick search on Yacht World and saw a few for sale within my price range. I’m going to add them to my searches. Thanks so much for the suggestion.

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Boats are never-ending expenses.

< snipped >

Yes, you can buy a great boat for a whole lot less than $200k. But if you want a boat capable of open ocean cruising you need a reliable boat, not a project boat, and you need one capable in terns of its design, construction, and equipment of making the journey safely. And these types of boats are not cheap, even used, unless you are willing to settle for a very old one or a beater, both of which will require a huge amount of work and/or money to get them up to the point where you can truly depend on them.
Wow, that was a lot of information. I was (again) unaware that continuing costs were so high. I completely agree that I should buy the smallest boat I can afford, but it must also suit my needs of being large enough to live aboard comfortably (not in opulence, but not spartan). Now, I’m not sure I can afford any of this. The ongoing expenses will surely bankrupt me, even on a smaller boat.

Now, in addition to facing a failed dream, I may have to re-evaluate both my near-term and long-term plans.

Please don’t think I’m angry. I truly appreciate the slap in the face. Your reasoned response to my inquiry brought me back to reality.

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If you can do the work yourself over several years like some of the members of this forum are doing, you can end up with a lot more boat for a lot less money. But if, as you imply, you are not in a position to do much of your own work on the boat you'll be hiring the work out and at yard and shop rates that are approaching $100 an hour these days, the bills are pretty impressive when they come in.
The work I can’t do would involve the heavy chores “down below” rather than the cosmetic maintenance or refurbishment around the boat. I guess what I’m saying is (for example) if I want to have a fuel polishing system installed, I cannot do it myself. But I can change the filters and oil. I certainly cannot rebuild a diesel engine or generator. I can do almost all of the wood/teak work, replacement of lights, work on things like sinks and heads, and much of the electronics work if it doesn’t require an awful lot of physical labor. I have lots of skills, just not the physical ability to do all of them. I have nothing but time on my hands. The biggest chore that scares me is bottom work – stripping the hull, sanding, filling and the applying bottom paint. Before my disability, I could have done this. Now, it is beyond my abilities.

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If Good luck with your search. There are zillions of boats out there of every possible type, description, and condition. If it's meant to be, you'll find one to suit your purposes even if you have to morph your purposes around a bit to fit reality.

And remember, this is supposed to be fun.
Thanks for the shot of inspiration. I was beginning to get down in the mouth. Earlier this afternoon, I actually started looking at condos in Florida (with dockage) and serious open fishing boats (like a Mako 284). I already have a place in Stuart, FL but it is not near the water. I’d like to think I can find and afford my dream, but it is becoming clearer to me that it may be out of reach. I’m not going to buy a trawler just to have it and pour money into it. I just want to enjoy myself before I take a dirt nap.

Thanks for the dose of reality.
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:08 AM   #35
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WTF guys!!! I can't believe what I am reading here (before deleting them). A new member needs advice about trawler buying and wants to become a part of our community and the thread turns into this? It's one thing to vigorously question the opinions of a veteran member where there is some history and understanding there, but to go after a new member like this? We, as a community, cannot stand for this.

Gary, please accept the apology of the vast majority of the community and of the mod team for not noticing this sooner and putting a stop to it. We love getting new members and would really like for you to stay as you can certainly bring yet another element to this forum as well as get to know some very smart people that can help you with many of your trawler related questions.

Once again, please accept our apology and we hope that you decide to remain with us.

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Old 07-08-2012, 11:31 AM   #36
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Welcome to the Salt life MilShoot
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:04 PM   #37
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[QUOTE=GonzoF1;93126]WTF guys!!! I can't believe what I am reading here (before deleting them). A new member needs advice about trawler buying and wants to become a part of our community and the thread turns into this? It's one thing to vigorously question the opinions of a veteran member where there is some history and understanding there, but to go after a new member like this? We, as a community, cannot stand for this.


Gonzo

I can only assume that you did in fact already delete the offending posts, as I cannot see anything that should be considered for deletion. Do remember that if you delete the offense, none of us will no what offends you.

Milshooter

Welcome!!! Good to see someone really research a big move like you are. I have only a couple things to add, which may be redundant, but I like redundancy.

First, I would say that you might want to consider an interim boat, to help you clarify your real interest in the dream. Only about 1% of the people I have either met or heard of that intended to blue water cruise, actually ended up doing so. This occurs for many reasons, whether they be the fear factor that sets in when there is no longer land to be seen, medical issues, or just plain satisfaction with local cruising. I would bet that you could explore every mile of the US coast, excluding Hawaii, and never feel you were missing anything. If you must cruise foreign waters, there is always the option to charter in those areas. There is a lot more that could be said on this, but I'll leave that to others.

My recommendation to anyone with your interests would be to buy a 30'-36' Willard as soon as you can, and enjoy the use of it for the many years between now and the big voyage. If the big voyage never comes, you will have lost nothing.
Enjoy the process!!!
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:05 PM   #38
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Now, in addition to facing a failed dream, I may have to re-evaluate both my near-term and long-term plans.
There is a major huge difference between a failed dream and a modified dream that becomes a reality. A lot of new boaters get sucked into getting in way over their heads, either by their own vision of what boating should be or by others feeding them pie in the sky ideas. The end result is invariably disappointment, frustration, and perhaps a major financial penalty.

Better, I think, that the dreamer find out ASAP what's just a dream and what can become reality for him. That way he can concentrate on having a happy, challenging, exciting and rewarding time with whatever boat best fits his achievable goals, instead of encountering countless obstacles in pursuit of something that's simply not meant to be.

In no way am I trying to discourage you from getting a cruising boat. I am trying to encourage you to get one that will give you the most rewarding and satisfying time on the water.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:43 PM   #39
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......................
Wow, that was a lot of information. I was (again) unaware that continuing costs were so high. I completely agree that I should buy the smallest boat I can afford, but it must also suit my needs of being large enough to live aboard comfortably (not in opulence, but not spartan). Now, I’m not sure I can afford any of this. The ongoing expenses will surely bankrupt me, even on a smaller boat.

Now, in addition to facing a failed dream, I may have to re-evaluate both my near-term and long-term plans.

Please don’t think I’m angry. I truly appreciate the slap in the face. Your reasoned response to my inquiry brought me back to reality.
You appear to swing from one extreme to the other. Rather than black or white you may want to consider gray, which can be a very nice colour in its own right. And it comes in a surprising array of shades, all the way from nearly white to almost black.

For example, there's a retired mechanic living on our dock. He's far from wealthy, maybe 53 years old, probably never saved much money, I think he's waiting for some pension to kick in but he doesn't have much more than slip and grocery money right now. He lives on a 3788 Bayliner and does so very comfortably. Far be it from me to encourage anyone to buy a Bayliner and its about as far over on the continuum away from "full displacement" as you can get. However, I think he paid $35,000 for it, its in pristine condition and it costs him virtually nothing to maintain. He pulls it himself every couple of years to do bottom paint and change zincs. He runs it at displacement speed so he doesn't burn much fuel and he keeps it in the Gulf Islands where there is a ton of scenery to see within an hour cruise from his home dock. Is it an ocean crosser? Absolutely not and nobody would dream of trying to make it into one. Does it provide him with a liveaboard lifestyle cruising in the PNW? Absolutely - he cruises in the same waters as the Nordies and Selenes and Krogens do. As others have already pointed out after you have exhausted the coastal waters, if that is possible, then you can charter in exotic locales or you can load your boat on Yachtpath or Dockwise. They're not free but as you are rapidly learning, ocean crossing isn't free no matter how you do it.

Every one of us here who owns a boat travelled a journey to get to the boat we currently own. For some that journey involved multiple boats. Others of us did a lot of looking before we bought. Some likely leaped in and got lucky. I suspect the ones that leaped in and DIDN'T get lucky aren't posting here. Keep looking and learning. And think about embracing your inner gray.
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:36 PM   #40
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I`m with Gonzo on some of the responses,but impressed MilShooter is separating the wheat from the chaff, focusing on the advice.
MilShooter,there are get "get home"auxiliary diesels which drive the prop shaft of a single main engine. I think the drive can be mechanical or hydraulic,don`t know much about it,others will. I`d question long ocean voyages,especially solo,without back up, and suspect you are over-rating grounding risks with a 2 engine/rudder set-up. BruceK
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