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Old 08-09-2014, 12:58 PM   #21
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If you're looking at used boats forget the builder, look at how it was maintained. The worst Taiwan trawler that has been well taken care of and issues fixed will be better than the best Nordhaven made that has been abused and neglected. If you find one with wiring that is easily understood please post what it is, I want one.
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Old 08-09-2014, 01:03 PM   #22
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If you're looking at used boats forget the builder, look at how it was maintained. The worst Taiwan trawler that has been well taken care of and issues fixed will be better than the best Nordhaven made that has been abused and neglected. If you find one with wiring that is easily understood please post what it is, I want one.
That's because both were built in Taiwan.
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Old 08-09-2014, 01:05 PM   #23
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If you find one with wiring that is easily understood please post what it is, I want one.
Virtually any Ocean Alexander.
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Old 08-09-2014, 04:36 PM   #24
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Until you determine what the mission of your next boat will be, this thread will continue to wander all over the place. A Krogen Manatee fits one mission- coastal cruiser, displacement speed, high interior volume; a newer high hp Grand Banks fits another- getting there quick while looking yachty; and a Nordhavn fits a third mission- long distance blue water passagemaking (as well as snob appeal).

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Old 08-10-2014, 01:20 AM   #25
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So, what is the opinion on the Bayliner 4788 anyway? We looked a a Defever 48 today and are going to look at a 48 Californian tomorrow. There is a 4788 in the marina where the other boats are and it looks great, but, on a weight basis, the 1979 Defever came in at about 40,000 lbs, were as the Bayliner came in at roughly 30,000 lbs. Where is the difference? We asked the broker that and h said that the older Defever's were a heavier built blue water boat and the 4788 are a lighter more ICW boat. I did notice that the Engine room on the Defever was just that, an Engine Room, but on the 4788, it seems to be a bunch of floor boards pulled up and not an Engine Room at all? I have not seen this in person yet but I plan to? Is this a good assumption? Thanks as always
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Old 08-10-2014, 01:44 AM   #26
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Depends much on where you intend to boat. Gunkholing or transoceanic, and such.
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Old 08-10-2014, 01:58 AM   #27
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Well Mr. Pierce My intention for the boat is to use it around the SF Bay and to go to the Farallon islands and to Bodega and Monterey bay. I really like the "heavy" Defever's but I am afraid the better half (wife) will like the Californian and 4788 better. So, as an ex Marine Engineer, I'm not sure the 4788 "engine room" will do me any good. Don't know yet, but I know I want to run the engine room on my own. My wife loves the 4788 interior though
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Old 08-10-2014, 02:12 AM   #28
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So, what is the opinion on the Bayliner 4788 anyway? We looked a a Defever 48 today and are going to look at a 48 Californian tomorrow. There is a 4788 in the marina where the other boats are and it looks great, but, on a weight basis, the 1979 Defever came in at about 40,000 lbs, were as the Bayliner came in at roughly 30,000 lbs. Where is the difference? We asked the broker that and h said that the older Defever's were a heavier built blue water boat and the 4788 are a lighter more ICW boat. I did notice that the Engine room on the Defever was just that, an Engine Room, but on the 4788, it seems to be a bunch of floor boards pulled up and not an Engine Room at all? I have not seen this in person yet but I plan to? Is this a good assumption? Thanks as always
Apples and Oranges. The 4788 isn't a trawler, but is a true pilothouse that can poke along at trawler speeds for long distances, but has the ability to get up and run up to 20 -25 mph (depends on engines) if desired. The DeFever can go at trawler speeds only. The others have lots of windage due to being so tall and boxy, the 4788 is low (due to not having a tall engine room) and sleek, which is why so few have bow thrusters. Oh, almost forgot- you don't have to go outside to reach the flybridge- it's just 3 steps up from the Pilothouse. If it starts raining-you just go down into the climate controlled pilothouse-which many run their boats from all the time (including docking) as the bow doesn't rise when running- giving excellent visibility. So you don't need canvas up on the FB. There's a cockpit for fishing or lounging. Great views from the large opening windows in the salon. Windows that don't leak because the window frames aren't holding the weight of the flybridge.

The 4788 has much aluminum in their construction (superstructure, window frames, doors, etc) The 4788 is quite high tech (fully cored) in it's construction and was built in America, the 48' is just lots of fiberglass and wood built in Taiwan. One will have blisters, the other doesn't.


My Dodge Ramcharger(s) had a huge engine bay, but my Dodge Caravan doesn't.
Guess which one has needed the hood up the most since new? You pick a car for the convenience of the mechanic who works on it?

The 4788 will remind you when you're getting fat, but you can easily check fluids without torturing yourself especially if they have had a center hatch installed-as many have. When they became named Meridian- the hatches between the engines in the salon were standard after a couple of years. It's an easy retrofit for the older ones.

The 4788s exterior is pretty much maintenance free after 1996. Taiwan boats - "not so much". The 96 newer 4788s have Cummins engines which are pretty good engines, with no part problems, and service available pretty much anywhere by just looking in the phone book.
The 4788 has a bathtub, and the guests have a separate shower stall.
If you go to my site and click "Bayliner and Meridian History and Updates" I have photos of the hull lamination schedules and photos of one that sat on a reef in the Berry's for a week and is still in service. It's a thick built boat. Thicker than a Nordhavn 46'! (again, I have the photos to prove it).
Which one is a better passagemaker? Better question is "which one's have made the most passages? When you cruise Alaska and Mexico- you tell me which one's you see more of out your window. That's your answer. ONE you can readily sell, the other -good luck. One has a lot of bang for the buck, the other you will need a lot of bucks to get the bang. What's this stuff called varnish? One's a Swiss Army knife, the other is a Chinese take out box. Lol. Just joking-the Californians were built in California. What good is "heavy" if it's all in the wrong places? I wouldn't recommend ANY for going out to the Farallons! A Defender is the best out there for rough water. Tied up next to your Pilothouse at anchor or the dock.
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Old 08-10-2014, 02:21 AM   #29
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Well, the Seahorse Coot could do that, but it is probably too small for you with a mere under-pilothouse engine compartment.





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Old 08-10-2014, 09:51 AM   #30
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Mr.Pierce, I love your boat and meant no disrespect towards you engine room or any other. As you know, I went to CMA and was comparing engine rooms to ones like the "Cub" we had at school and thought I was looking for a boat with that style stand up engine compartment. The more I look though, the more I am finding out that on a "pleasure" boat, the engine room is not all that big and for good reason. I guess those style engine rooms are mostly on "working" boats. Your engine compartment looks cleaner than my kitchen at home
Pilothouse King, thanks for the great write up. That is exactly what I was looking for in terms of information regarding the different types of boats available. I will be checking out your site as soon as I get done with this post. Regarding the Defender, did you mean Defever or is there a Defender boat out there I don't know about? All this pleasure boating is new to me, I know "working" boats but not much about the other, sorry if some questions may seem "dumb"
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:13 AM   #31
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Defender like as in those big RIBs so popular out there on the bay. Think the chase boats during the Americas Cup. They are great rough water boats. Not cheap, but pretty cool machines if one insists on boating in rough seas.
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:51 AM   #32
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CMA: There are very few pleasure vessels out there under 49 ft. with a stand-up engine room. The over 43' Gulf Star is pretty good, Krogen 39, Selene and DeFeaver do a pretty good job in some models, a few custom builds, and the cavernous Great Harbour N-37 and N-47, maybe the odd Mathews or Nelson,....that's about all I can think of. This stiff old body dreams of a real stand-up ER someday.
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Old 08-10-2014, 01:02 PM   #33
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Depending on how tall you are, Defever 44s have a near-stand-up engine room. They also have a huge, obstruction-free sundeck and flybridge--extensive usable space for a boat this size. They're also built like tanks and they easily fit into a 50-foot slip. Lots of boat for the money, but they do, as PHK notes, require attention to maintenance (which some of us actually don't mind).

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Old 08-10-2014, 01:49 PM   #34
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Talk about thread drift!!! From quality built european boats to this... smh but going for it anyway.Click image for larger version

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All the hatches come up for direct access-that's standard. The hatch in the middle is custom, so you don't have to crawl back there through the "tunnel of knee pain".

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490 Meridian in Alaska. I'm not seeing any other boats in the background. Don't make me post the photos of 4788s in Tracey's Arm, or down in front of the Sydney Opera House. :>)

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Why most people don't ever do anything!

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Ok, let's see if we can settle this argument you guys are having- now is it anchors or engine rooms, or US built versus foreign?

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Fuel filters and fuel transfer valves
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Engine room hatch in a 98 (all custom of course!) What is it, about 9' headroom? When you have to squat to work on something-it doesn't matter the headroom until you stand up. I ain't lying, it's tight down there- so I send in my Captain, who ironically is HUGE!
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Old 08-10-2014, 03:01 PM   #35
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Sheeet! I thought that this thread was heading off into a single vs twin debate a dozen or so posts back. Maybe this post will get it back there since it has gone everywhere else so far. But no anchor discussion so far.

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Old 08-10-2014, 03:02 PM   #36
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PK, lol, you've got some legit points there, and I'm sure you are constantly barraged with those customer struggles in your business, but I doubt that you're going to talk anyone out of the desire for a stand-up engine room, unrealistic though it may be. I'd be happier squatting in a stand-up engine room than I would squatting in a cramped crawl space.
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Old 08-10-2014, 04:51 PM   #37
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I wouldn't recommend ANY for going out to the Farallons!
Really? Not even the DeFever? I think you'd get an argument from many that have ventured out that way (or anybody that's experienced any semi-rough, offshore conditions for that matter), including me.

Curious, other than the Defender, are there any other boats (under 55') that you think could possibly survive?

To CMA1992, don't be scared off of going offshore around here by these comments. You do need to be careful with which boat you choose and the conditions, but plenty do it.

Also, not all Nordhavn's have been built in Taiwan.
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Old 08-10-2014, 05:36 PM   #38
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Owned both 4788 and Hatteras LRC

Cruised both up and down the west coast. If you are a week end warrior you will get a lot more actual use out of the 18knt 4788. In average summer conditions you can run from the Golden Gate to Monterrey in around 6 hrs. It will be a tie everything down and invert the dinning room table because that's how it will end up anyway trip. But the 4788 will do it safely. Farallons no problem usually. you can make day trips to Bodega Bay, cross the bar into Tomales bay and spend the weekend. The trip will be physical and wet. But you can do it on a weekend. The 4788 is a great delta boat, I mean you can actually run down to the bay and spend the weekend and be back Sunday afternoon. It's stable at anchor and fairly quiet. The 4788 has a great layout and reasonable fit and finish. The galley stove and frig are pretty much average production boat fare, as are the heads. It's a great boat if you can't afford the time to cruise at 6knts. It is not a 66,000lb Hatteras in the ocean or in living accommodations at the dock. If you have the time and patience the Hatteras is a much more rugged and comfortable boat. You have to realistic about how much your time means to you because it takes three times as long to cruise the Hatteras to the same places as the Bayliner 4788. I would say that most people will get more cruising done with the 4788 just on time restraints alone. You have to be honest with yourself and how you will actually cruise a boat. Remember custom boats have custom problems, one of the best features of the Bayliner is just the fact that there are so many of them.
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Old 08-10-2014, 08:53 PM   #39
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Until you determine what the mission of your next boat will be, this thread will continue to wander all over the place. A Krogen Manatee fits one mission- coastal cruiser, displacement speed, high interior volume; a newer high hp Grand Banks fits another- getting there quick while looking yachty; and a Nordhavn fits a third mission- long distance blue water passagemaking (as well as snob appeal).

David
That's not a direct answer to the question but it's the best response so far. If the boat isn't a good fit for the OP's wants and needs, it doesn't matter how well it's built, it will just sit at the dock and eventually have a "for sale" sign on it.

Buying a boat is a complicated decision with lots of compromises but the first thing that needs to be decided is "Why do I want to buy a boat?" And of course "How much money can I afford to buy, maintain and operate it?"
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Old 08-11-2014, 01:18 AM   #40
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That's because both were built in Taiwan.
Nordhavns are built in Xiamen, China. I've been through the plant.
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