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Old 11-23-2018, 07:36 PM   #1
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taxes

I've always paid income tax, even since the 1960s with only part-time income with unskilled-level income. Currently, most people now don't pay federal income tax. With the changing tax laws, I wasn't eligible for itemized tax deduction in California in recent years. This year I'm also limited to standard federal deduction since that exceeds the maximum state/local tax deduction. Unfortunately, the marginal tax rates haven't decreased much to help compensate.

It gets me when people accuse others when "they don't pay their fair share" when the accusers don't pay.
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Old 11-23-2018, 08:28 PM   #2
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Currently, most people now don't pay federal income tax.
Put down the bong. Or turn off the right wing talking heads. Or, better still, do both. Most, meaning a majority of people, pay federal taxes.

And then consider two things.

The gap between rich and poor, where the poor never reach a level where they owe taxes.

And... did we really need to reduce taxes?
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Old 11-24-2018, 12:11 AM   #3
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Maybe merge the thread with Humor?
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Old 11-24-2018, 04:17 AM   #4
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Sadly, this country doesn't use a flat one rate tax or a consumption (federal retail tax). While you can argue who is or isn't paying enough, if everyone plays by the same rules and 99% of the deductions and special rules go away (nobody needs an accountant), there would at least be the appearance of fairness.

While were at, let's make election day April 15th (tax day). Your tax return is your ballot. Maybe the politicians would fear voter retaliation a little more. I'm also probably a little cynical. People who don't contribute probably shouldn't be able to elect themselves a benefits increase.

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Old 11-24-2018, 05:49 AM   #5
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"I'm also probably a little cynical."

Hard not to be, here in FL when property taxes are held down , the county simply raises the mill rate , so they collect even more.

A national sales tax (not a vat tax) would not only be fair , it would free millions of man hours for productive use.

There would be NO PAPERWORK for individuals , and no way to escape taxes for the underground economy.

But congress would have less to sell , so it will remain a dream ,perhaps till after a Civil War.
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Old 11-24-2018, 06:36 AM   #6
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It gets me when people accuse others when "they don't pay their fair share" when the accusers don't pay.

Yeah. When folks like Mitt Romney (just for example) pay a bazillion dollars a year in taxes, and donate another bazillion... yet are accused of not paying their "fair" share because it worked out to only 2% or income or whatever.

I don't particularly object to paying taxes to fund government services (although the usual level of fraud, waste, and abuse for some programs gets old).

That said... it's use of the word "fair" that eats my shorts. "Pragmatic" can work. "Unfair, but what else can we do?" can work. Even "Sucks, but get over it!" could be OK with me. Just not "fair."

Even flat tax rates -- or any other style of income tax -- that aren't tied directly to a taxpayers individual share of the cost of government services... just ain't gonna ever be "fair."

Why bring it up now? Here in the U.S., it's usually an April discussion...

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Old 11-24-2018, 06:47 AM   #7
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Currently, most people now don't pay federal income tax.

Are there any references on this statement? I hear this thrown around from time to time, and would be interested to know what reality is, as opposed to what one group or another "wants" to believe.
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Old 11-24-2018, 07:09 AM   #8
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Are there any references on this statement? I hear this thrown around from time to time, and would be interested to know what reality is, as opposed to what one group or another "wants" to believe.
Yup.
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:46 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
I've always paid income tax, even since the 1960s with only part-time income with unskilled-level income. Currently, most people now don't pay federal income tax. With the changing tax laws, I wasn't eligible for itemized tax deduction in California in recent years. This year I'm also limited to standard federal deduction since that exceeds the maximum state/local tax deduction. Unfortunately, the marginal tax rates haven't decreased much to help compensate.

It gets me when people accuse others when "they don't pay their fair share" when the accusers don't pay.
Do you really think that federal income taxes are the only taxes taken from paychecks? Have you forgotten what a paystub looks like?
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Old 11-24-2018, 09:50 AM   #10
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These are the numbers for tax year 2017 at the ssa.gov (Social Security Administration ) website:

https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2017

It shows roughly half of the people have earnings. That chart is not real easy to find and I have never heard it mentioned in the propaganda services.


Here is a take on what it cost to live a self-sufficient lifestyle in 2017:


https://pj.news.chass.ncsu.edu/2017/...g-basic-needs/
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Old 11-24-2018, 12:21 PM   #11
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It shows roughly half of the people have earnings
Throw in children, elderly, disabled, miscellaneous unemployed, and you get the other half.

Virtually every wage earner and their employer pays the regressive FICA (social security tax) and the flat Medicare tax. And at the local level, everyone pays sales taxes and either directly through property ownership or indirectly through rents, property taxes. Plus whatever other mishmash of taxes and "fees" and tariffs the various pols come up with at all levels of government.
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Old 11-24-2018, 03:23 PM   #12
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I gotta take my beret off to those French guys. Their attitude toward gas taxes are a whole lot different from the sheeple in Kalifornia.
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Old 11-24-2018, 07:06 PM   #13
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Do you really think that federal income taxes are the only taxes taken from paychecks? Have you forgotten what a paystub looks like?
Yes, but they expect a pay-back in the form of SS payments upon reaching old age. My father paid "both sides" of social security tax on his high-middle-class income as he was self-employed, but only received something like slightly over $1000 a month in benefits when retired. Presumably, his SS benefits were reduced substantially because he had other sources of "unearned" income. He paid more than his share.
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Old 11-24-2018, 07:18 PM   #14
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Do you really think that federal income taxes are the only taxes taken from paychecks? Have you forgotten what a paystub looks like?
Yeah, as in the very high state income tax of California. Here, marginal income-tax rates can approach 50 percent (federal and state income taxes).
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Old 11-24-2018, 07:22 PM   #15
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Yes, but they expect a pay-back in the form of SS payments upon reaching old age. My father paid "both sides" of social security tax on his high-middle-class income as he was self-employed, but only received something like slightly over $1000 a month in benefits when retired. Presumably, his SS benefits were reduced substantially because he had other sources of "unearned" income. He paid more than his share.

Isn't that something we all expect?


And isn't the payment amount directly related to what you paid in?


I don't think other sources of income have anything to do with it.
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:51 PM   #16
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Neither Medicare or Social Security are considered taxes in the technical sense. They are contributions/premiums for social programs. As one successful movie pointed out there are federal taxes on booze.

The number 47% don't pay federal income taxes was a critical issue in the 2012 presidential election. This percentage has probably increased slightly in 2018 after the last tax law.
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Old 11-25-2018, 05:53 AM   #17
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"He paid more than his share. __________________"

This is a requirement for every social welfare scheme .

Someone has to pay extra if 50% of the population gets gov checks .
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Old 11-25-2018, 06:15 AM   #18
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"He paid more than his share. __________________"

This is a requirement for every social welfare scheme .

Someone has to pay extra if 50% of the population gets gov checks .
Interesting translation.

Are you suggesting that 47% don't pay Federal Taxes means that 47% are getting a check?
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Old 11-25-2018, 07:59 AM   #19
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"I'm also probably a little cynical."

Hard not to be, here in FL when property taxes are held down , the county simply raises the mill rate , so they collect even more.

A national sales tax (not a vat tax) would not only be fair , it would free millions of man hours for productive use.

There would be NO PAPERWORK for individuals , and no way to escape taxes for the underground economy.

But congress would have less to sell , so it will remain a dream ,perhaps till after a Civil War.
No way for the underground economy to escape taxation? Surely you jest. I worked 33 years in income tax enforecment, yes, the reviled IRS, and I can assure you that underreporting or non-reporting of income will continue under ANY system. "Under the table", "Cash is king", why would you think that this will go away?
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Old 11-25-2018, 08:16 AM   #20
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BTW, the 47% who don't have a federal tax bill is 47% of HOUSEHOLDS, not people. That said, I'm not sure how much different the percentages would be if you looked at it some other way. And approximately half of those are retired people. The rest aren't earning enough to have a tax liability, which doesn't strike me as grounds for punishment.
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