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Old 10-21-2015, 08:46 AM   #21
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We have a saying in this country-----shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations. While trying to make our childrens' lives better, we are depriving them of their learning values and the knowledge of how to handle wealth. Not a hard and fast rule, of course; but it plays out all too often.
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:38 AM   #22
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We have a saying in this country-----shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations. While trying to make our childrens' lives better, we are depriving them of their learning values and the knowledge of how to handle wealth. Not a hard and fast rule, of course; but it plays out all too often.
Its frightening how much capital is needed to have a independent income, and how hard it is to pass that on to your children.

The British pm recently capped welfare payment to the unemployed families from 26k to 23k in the London area, to howls of protest from the socialists.

But when you think you need about 1m in capital to generate 26k in income from share dividends (approx) , its a very sobering thought of how much money you would need to give each of your children an independent financial stream of income.

From rags to riches and back again, ain't so hard to believe!
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:38 AM   #23
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For the first time in history our children may be less well off than us.
Not the first time in history, even though I see this said quite often. First time in "modern" history, perhaps.

In the early 1300s we had the beginning of the "Little Ice Age" that led to reduced harvests and starvation throughout Europe. Almost immediately followed by the Black Plague, which killed off nearly 50% of the population. I sincerely doubt that the generations that lived through that period felt like they were better off than their parents!
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:44 AM   #24
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Not the first time in history, even though I see this said quite often. First time in "modern" history, perhaps.

In the early 1300s we had the beginning of the "Little Ice Age" that led to reduced harvests and starvation throughout Europe. Almost immediately followed by the Black Plague, which killed off nearly 50% of the population. I sincerely doubt that the generations that lived through that period felt like they were better off than their parents!
Aha yes, but after the black death there was a peasants revolt which succeeded in getting vastly increased wages and conditions of employment because of the huge labour shortage.

Of course not much advantage to you if you're already dead.
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:18 AM   #25
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Class in the US is primarily denoted by wealth/income, not heritage or social standing. The country is only a few hundred years old if you go back to the initial colonization from Europe so there is not the longstanding land/power feudal system that developed in Europe/UK.
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:34 AM   #26
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The British pm recently capped welfare payment to the unemployed families from 26k to 23k in the London area, to howls of protest from the socialists.

That's a lot of give-away $$$. Might be well above our official "poverty level" though I don't know that for sure.

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Old 10-21-2015, 11:18 AM   #27
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The way I see class distinctions isn't about money. It's about education and values.

I know people with essentially no money but are among the finest human beings I've ever met. I know people with gobs of money that I consider to be totally reprehensible beings.

It's not that one has to have a certain level of formal education to be in one class or another. It's more along the lines of educating yourself about how things do work in the real world vs. how an individual would like for things to work or how they mistakenly think things work.

As for values - for me, I'm somewhat judgmental on this issue. It's simple - do you take care of business or do you expect someone else to take care of business for you?

But, that's all just my opinion. I'm sure the sociologists have different ideas.
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:21 AM   #28
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Its frightening how much capital is needed to have a independent income, and how hard it is to pass that on to your children.

The British pm recently capped welfare payment to the unemployed families from 26k to 23k in the London area, to howls of protest from the socialists.

But when you think you need about 1m in capital to generate 26k in income from share dividends (approx) , its a very sobering thought that is how much money you would need to give each of your children an independent financial stream of income.

From rags to riches and back again, ain't so hard to believe!
Well, you get it. In the US all welfare benefits total to about $30.00/hr if based on a 40 hr week. That totals about $50,000.00 per yr. The average worker only makes about $20.00/hr. Also, in many states we have fewer people working than are on the dole. To generate that kind of money capital invested at interest today would be about $2,000,000.00. That is unsustainable. We have jobs, but with welfare benefits so high they are better off not working. That is one reason we have so many illegal immigrants. Many of them are willing to work.

Whether the problems of Europe and the US are fixable remains to be seen.
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:45 AM   #29
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Class in the US is primarily denoted by wealth/income, not heritage or social standing. The country is only a few hundred years old if you go back to the initial colonization from Europe so there is not the longstanding land/power feudal system that developed in Europe/UK.
Surprisingly enough when I was growing up in Ireland in the 70's a feudal system still existed, thanks to the influence of the catholic church.

If you wanted to become a priest nun or monk you had to come from a respectable family of property owing status. There are many stories from that period where working class people were refused entry into the religious orders because of issues with their social class.

The hippy revolution bypassed Ireland, but the dot com revolution fundementally changed our society along with immigration into Ireland from diverse and different cultures.

I would say there is only two sorts of class in modern Irish society; education and money.
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:48 AM   #30
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That's a lot of give-away $$$. Might be well above our official "poverty level" though I don't know that for sure.

-Chris
It brings into sharp focus the problems governments are having in meeting the costs of welfare payments.

How long can this be sustainable without huge tax hikes?
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:54 AM   #31
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Some interesting thoughts, comments and perspectives.

Where is the line, if there is one, between class and discrimination?

Where I lived in Vancouver, until recently, was likely one of the most diverse areas in the city, province and maybe even in the country.

Within one block you could find people sleeping on the street in the shadow of a 20 million dollar yacht. Oil money, crack money, barista money.

Community gardens at the school below grow ops in vacant penthouses. You could look out the window of a subsidized social housing complex onto an NHLer's balcony. Customers on their way to the $1,000/hr ladies, walked by the $5 for 15 minute ones.

Serbian,Yugoslavian, Arab, Israeli, Asian, Indian, African and Caucasian; they all put each other in boxes, mostly based of their history together, friendly or otherwise.

On any given day, I could be dismissed simply because of age.

So,is that class? Discrimination? Both?
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Old 10-21-2015, 11:59 AM   #32
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Well, you get it. In the US all welfare benefits total to about $30.00/hr if based on a 40 hr week. That totals about $50,000.00 per yr. The average worker only makes about $20.00/hr. Also, in many states we have fewer people working than are on the dole. To generate that kind of money capital invested at interest today would be about $2,000,000.00. That is unsustainable. We have jobs, but with welfare benefits so high they are better off not working. That is one reason we have so many illegal immigrants. Many of them are willing to work.

Whether the problems of Europe and the US are fixable remains to be seen.
I come from a conservative background; how have we got to this state of affairs?

What's wrong with low tax, small government, which encourages self reliance and personal responsibility?


I advocate qualified voting. If you receive welfare from the state the power of your vote should be diluted by a % of the amount you receive.

ie. People who derive all their income from welfare should have their vote cut by 50% to 1/2 the value of person who is a stake holder in society that contributes economically.

I believe ancient Greece, the cradle of modern democracy, used a similar system of qualified voting.
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Old 10-21-2015, 12:12 PM   #33
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Some interesting thoughts, comments and perspectives.

Where is the line, if there is one, between class and discrimination?

Where I lived in Vancouver, until recently, was likely one of the most diverse areas in the city, province and maybe even in the country.

Within one block you could find people sleeping on the street in the shadow of a 20 million dollar yacht. Oil money, crack money, barista money.

Community gardens at the school below grow ops in vacant penthouses. You could look out the window of a subsidized social housing complex onto an NHLer's balcony. Customers on their way to the $1,000/hr ladies, walked by the $5 for 15 minute ones.

Serbian,Yugoslavian, Arab, Israeli, Asian, Indian, African and Caucasian; they all put each other in boxes, mostly based of their history together, friendly or otherwise.

On any given day, I could be dismissed simply because of age.

So,is that class? Discrimination? Both?
History teaches us that multiculturism doesn't work. I often wonder what problems we're storing up for the future.

Cultural Diversity seems to lead to genocide, not acceptance of different ethnicty and their ways of living their lives which are different to ours.

ultimatly Who owns the culture of our country; the immigrants or the original population?
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:23 PM   #34
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Many years ago there was a PBS series titled "The Day the Universe Changed" that was originally produced in the UK by the BBC. It was a look at technological development in the western world, and had as its basic premise, "We are what we know." Today, class seems to be determined by what you know or are willing to learn. Knowledge doesn't guarantee you will be rich, but it won't keep you poor either.

Tom
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Old 10-21-2015, 04:24 PM   #35
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Many years ago there was a PBS series titled "The Day the Universe Changed" that was originally produced in the UK by the BBC. It was a look at technological development in the western world, and had as its basic premise, "We are what we know." Today, class seems to be determined by what you know or are willing to learn. Knowledge doesn't guarantee you will be rich, but it won't keep you poor either.

Tom
Nice point.
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Old 10-22-2015, 06:33 AM   #36
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"And then we do also have ethnic groups who are truly disadvantaged. The very vocal of that "they" often seem to blame their status on ethnicity and resulting discrimination. Racial bigotry is indeed alive and well, here, but many here instead think that's only one (and a minor) cause of ethnic disadvantage.


yYOU BET , JUST ASK ANY ORENTIAL BARRED FROM A GOOD SKOOL DUE TO SLANTY EYES AND FANTASTIC GRADES!
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