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Old 08-21-2017, 02:03 PM   #1
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Opportunity to see civil war history

With the current storm of destruction of our history's efforts to immortalize what was, this old screening with moderator will enlighten many of the younger readers on the forum.
Compare the attitude and acceptance of what had happened with the settling results of reality of going forward as brother solider in arms.

What we see today in the public square reflects a total lack of decorum. Ignorance of our history, confirming a extreme lack of education of what this country's history has to offer. Tragic situation, Enjoy: [YOU MAY WILL HAVE TO TAKE THE VIDEO BACK TO START-SORRY]



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Old 08-26-2017, 10:24 AM   #2
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History is history!


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Old 08-26-2017, 04:33 PM   #3
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Pretty neat as I used to reenact the Civil War for many years when I was growing up.
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Old 08-26-2017, 05:15 PM   #4
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Reenactments will likely soon be banned...insensitive to acknowledge anything related to the souths effort...hard to do a reenactment with only one side participating.

Also...please note everyone should halt spending any bills with our southern slave holder presidents on them...just send them to me and I will assure proper disposal...do not attemp this ypurself just send them to me.
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Old 08-26-2017, 06:13 PM   #5
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Old 08-31-2017, 01:55 PM   #6
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New York , both city and state will have to be renamed ,
as the Duke of York (as well as his king) were involved in slave transportation and sales.

Destroying history is the surest way to learn nothing from it , and get to repeat it.
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Old 08-31-2017, 05:13 PM   #7
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History is history!
Until certain groups have it changed to suit their political views.

It has been said that a civilization that ignores its history is bound to repeat it. That's something to think about.
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Old 09-04-2017, 09:12 AM   #8
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Until certain groups have it changed to suit their political views.

It has been said that a civilization that ignores its history is bound to repeat it. That's something to think about.
History is history and the idea that removing statues changes it is nonsense.

Have you considered that the current view of history many embrace was, itself, changed to suit the political views of the early and mid-20th century, when denying equal rights to blacks was taken for granted? It's often been said that the south lost the war, but won the PR battle to interpret it. The idea of the "lost cause" of the confederacy was post-Civil War revisionism -- an invention of southern states in the days of Jim Crow and reinforced during the 50s and 60s desegregation battles. Lee, himself, did not want any statues built to commemorate him, but argued that the war should be put behind us to heal the nation's wounds.

I was raised in the south and believe it should be up to local communities to determine what statues appear in their public squares, particularly those places where people of all races go to receive justice. I can understand why a banner that was used to enslave millions would be offensive to their ancestors, just as a swastika is to others. Finally, the argument that removing -- or relocating -- monuments to those who led an armed insurrection to preserve slavery will lead to removing statues of founders who owned slaves is yet another false equivalence. Washington and Jefferson owned slaves but did not take up arms against the United States. Would you build statues today to commemorate militia leaders that violently seek to overthrow the government?
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Old 09-04-2017, 11:59 AM   #9
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In theory, "history" is the record of what happened in the past. While removing evidence of that history doesn't actually change it, it deprives future generations of knowing about it. Statues of historical figures are part of that knowledge of history.

A I posted above, "a civilization that ignores its history is bound to repeat it."
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:30 PM   #10
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History is history and the idea that removing statues changes it is nonsense.



Have you considered that the current view of history many embrace was, itself, changed to suit the political views of the early and mid-20th century, when denying equal rights to blacks was taken for granted? It's often been said that the south lost the war, but won the PR battle to interpret it. The idea of the "lost cause" of the confederacy was post-Civil War revisionism -- an invention of southern states in the days of Jim Crow and reinforced during the 50s and 60s desegregation battles. Lee, himself, did not want any statues built to commemorate him, but argued that the war should be put behind us to heal the nation's wounds.



I was raised in the south and believe it should be up to local communities to determine what statues appear in their public squares, particularly those places where people of all races go to receive justice. I can understand why a banner that was used to enslave millions would be offensive to their ancestors, just as a swastika is to others. Finally, the argument that removing -- or relocating -- monuments to those who led an armed insurrection to preserve slavery will lead to removing statues of founders who owned slaves is yet another false equivalence. Washington and Jefferson owned slaves but did not take up arms against the United States. Would you build statues today to commemorate militia leaders that violently seek to overthrow the government?


Well thought out post Angus, thanks.

As someone raised in the PNW, the history of the Civil War is simply that, history. While some of my ancestors fought in the war, I am removed from it by 4 generations.

Both my wife and I have felt that the removal of statues is a bit silly. I have no problem if a community decides they want to do it, but we don't view having a statue of a Confederate general to be a racist act. I know that as a middle class white guy I lack the appropriate sensitivity and some would argue don't have the standing to weigh in, but still...

You make some very good points however that I really had not considered. How would I react if another person who wanted to start a revolt against the federal government had a statue erected in his honor? Timothy McVeigh.
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Old 09-04-2017, 12:31 PM   #11
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In theory, "history" is the record of what happened in the past. While removing evidence of that history doesn't actually change it, it deprives future generations of knowing about it. Statues of historical figures are part of that knowledge of history.

A I posted above, "a civilization that ignores its history is bound to repeat it."
I agree with that, Wes. I just disagree that relocating monuments to revisionist history is ignoring history.
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Old 09-04-2017, 01:05 PM   #12
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Well thought out post Angus, thanks.

As someone raised in the PNW, the history of the Civil War is simply that, history. While some of my ancestors fought in the war, I am removed from it by 4 generations.

Both my wife and I have felt that the removal of statues is a bit silly. I have no problem if a community decides they want to do it, but we don't view having a statue of a Confederate general to be a racist act. I know that as a middle class white guy I lack the appropriate sensitivity and some would argue don't have the standing to weigh in, but still...

You make some very good points however that I really had not considered. How would I react if another person who wanted to start a revolt against the federal government had a statue erected in his honor? Timothy McVeigh.
Thanks, Dave. It's a thorny question, for sure. And McVeigh came to mind when I was writing earlier.

I am not for a minute suggesting that the courage of Confederate troops should be forgotten . . . nor the tactical brilliance of Confederate military leaders . . . nor the devotion that soldiers had for the homes they loved. But IMHO the leaders of an armed rebellion (who never disavowed their strong advocacy for slavery) don't automatically merit monuments in public places if local communities don't want them there.

One thing I've learned as I've gotten older is that the way I saw the world as a child isn't the way I see it today. Actual history--not just the symbols of it--is far more complex than the simplistic stories I was taught in school or the nostalgic meanings we attach to it today.

Finally, the meaning that symbols of the Confederacy once had -- including its flag and monuments to Confederate leaders -- have been co-opted by ultra right-wing racists and any positive meaning they once might have had for me--living most of my life in the south--has been irredeemably ruined. Symbols can change forever when bad actors take them over. The textbook example is a symbol that once represented luck, good wishes and good fortune to ancient civilizations: the swastika.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:27 PM   #13
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Until certain groups have it changed to suit their political views.

It has been said that a civilization that ignores its history is bound to repeat it. That's something to think about.
Agree Mate.

However for those of us that remember when schools taught history we can pass along the history. As far as those Nutter's that want to change the history to suit their political views. Well that can Bugger off in my book!

Cheers.

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Old 09-05-2017, 07:30 PM   #14
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Agree Mate.

However for those of us that remember when schools taught history we can pass along the history. As far as those Nutter's that want to change the history to suit their political views. Well that can Bugger off in my book!

Cheers.

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Yes but once these people grow up and begin teaching their own version of history in schools, the real history will be forgotten
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:06 PM   #15
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Ian, I can agree with you on many points, but the South's idea was secession not the over throw of the US government. There is talk in California today of secession, and there was talk of it in Texas.

Chattanooga is a unique area in that there are monuments throughout the area to both US and Southern troops. There are monuments to mark skirmishes all around. The New York monument is one of the largest in the area. I just moved from a home that was within a few hundred feet of both Grant's and Sherman's headquarters. Just because a few have disgraced the South's symbols is no cause to remove them all.

By the way, the stars and bars came from the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. There were over 600,000 casualties in that war. Let them all rest in peace.
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Old 09-06-2017, 10:59 PM   #16
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Lee, Jackson and Davis were enemies of the United States of America. Whether their motivations were slavery, tariffs, taxes or states' rights, or some combination of some or all of those, they were tragically wrong; and I am glad the South lost (I grew up in Alabama). What country erects monuments to its enemies?

And whatever the motivations of Lee, Jackson and Davis may have been, the motivations of those who erected the statutes and other monuments long after the war are clear. They were a bunch of racists.

Of course we should study history, try to understand it, try to learn from it. But not all history should be celebrated, and not every historical figure should be honored.
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:04 AM   #17
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And whatever the motivations of Lee, Jackson and Davis may have been, the motivations of those who erected the statutes and other monuments long after the war are clear. They were a bunch of racists.

I think that assuming that all who supported the erection of the statues were racist is pretty ridiculous. That makes no more sense than assuming that those that fought for the Union weren't racist. My ancestors fought for the union. They were against slavery. I am quite confident they were also racist.

We do a disservice to the understanding of history by viewing things in simple, black and white terms.
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Old 09-07-2017, 02:32 AM   #18
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Interesting topic this. Because prompted by the above, over here in Australia we have had a surge of folk wanting to take down the statue of Captain Cook, because it offends some Aborigines because of the association with the take-over of the land. Then the folk in Townsville, named after a Governor Towns, want the statue of him taken down because he was not well liked and fairly brutal.

You could well ask do statues honour the people they represent, or just act as reminders of the significant role they played during their life. I feel the latter, and therefore best left alone to remind today's folk, about the past, so it is not forgotten, or like FF and WesK said - we are doomed to repeat the past we forget.
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Old 09-07-2017, 08:53 AM   #19
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I think that assuming that all who supported the erection of the statues were racist is pretty ridiculous. That makes no more sense than assuming that those that fought for the Union weren't racist. My ancestors fought for the union. They were against slavery. I am quite confident they were also racist.

We do a disservice to the understanding of history by viewing things in simple, black and white terms.
You make an excellent point, Dave. Racism was rampant on both sides of the Mason Dixon line (one of the most virulent I ever met was from Pennsylvania).

To me, however, there should remain a difference between how we memorialize those those who initiated an armed struggle to dissolve the nation (on behalf of the right to own slaves) and those (both Yankee and Confederate) who were merely caught up in the war--most of whom didn't own slaves.

Again, IMHO, it should be up to local communities to decide and a key difference comes down to locations where official government services are provided. I can understand how Blacks, going to a courthouse where justice is supposed to be dispensed in the 21st century, might feel being greeted by larger-than-life symbols of the leaders of the system that enslaved and oppressed their ancestors. On the other hand, I think it's totally appropriate to memorialize Confederate (and Union) leaders in battlefields, parks and museums established for that purpose. (One of our favorite places for hikes since our son was an infant has been Chickamauga Battlefield.) Making this distinction does not erase history, but puts it in its proper context vs the revisionism that took place during Jim Crow.

Don, to your point on secession vs overthrow, I guess I see a difference between you and me talking about secession--which is everyone's legal right--and firing cannon at American soldiers to effectively overthrow the Federal government in my state.

One of the hardest things in life is to question the things we were brought up believing. I wasn't born in the South, but I've been a Southerner (by the grace of God) for about 55 years, married into a Southern family and have countess Southern friends. Southerners are among the warmest, most gracious, kindest people on earth and it's been fascinating to watch attitudes about the Civil War slowly change over the decades as people come to terms with the history that almost tore this nation apart.
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:23 AM   #20
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Robert E. Lee was faced with a tough decision. He was offered the job of leading Union forces. He was also pulled toward his beloved state of Virginia that had voted to secede. Knowing that he was facing the industrial might of the North and long odds, he chose his home state. Lee was brilliant. His big mistake was invading North of the Mason-Dixon Line. He outran his supply chain.

Stonewall Jackson was just a fighter. Wounded several times because of sitting on his horse leading his men, he persisted. He spent as much time riding on a stretcher in a covered wagon recuperating as he did on his horse. He finally succumbed at Chancellorsville.

Jefferson was a politician. What politician would turn down being president of anything.

An interesting anecdote is that Arlington Cemetary, America's most hallowed ground was placed on the Custis/Lee Estate. Light Horse Harry Lee was Robert E. Lee's uncle. Martha Custis married George Washington. The cemetary was placed there as an insult to the Lee family. It is visible from the Washington Mall. It has turned out to be cherished because so many of our heroes are buried there.

Generals are generals. Do you not think that George S. Patton would have fought for any side that would have him. We were just fortunate that he was fighting for us. I hate to think what he could have done with the the German Tiger tanks with their 88 mm guns.

My grandsons' 4th great grand father rode for the 5th Georgia Calvary. He owned no slaves. Was he a racist? I can't say, but he was from Thomas County Georgia. He could well have been, but makes little difference now.
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