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Old 10-16-2017, 11:14 AM   #41
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The South wasn't trying to take over the United States. They were trying to leave.While the former might be legitimately viewed as treason, I don't know how you call it that in a reprentative democracy when the elected leaders voted to leave.

And, the war was about slavery. But, about other things more important to the north as well. There was no income tax back then. Federal revenue came through tariffs, 75 per cent of which were generated in southern ports. The north simply could not afford financially to let the South leave.Taking all of that together, the Civil War was over money and power, like just about every other war before or since.

And, I think it has been well proven at this point, that forcing people to stay in a Union that they didn't want to be in by killing a few hundred thousand of them, is not exactly the greatest recipe for a United country. You can make someone submit to just about anything with enough physical force, but it doesn't mean you are going to make them like it. And, if you think it is strange that the South still holds a grudge, go visit some defeated and conquered people in other countries and see how long those feelings can last.

Historians overwhelmingly agree that the primary cause of the Civil War was slavery. Below is a discussion among some of them. They discuss the 169 signers of the South Carolina declaration to secede who listed preserving slavery as their major justification. Economics were far down the list.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs...civilwar_04-12

The Articles of Confederation preceding the Constitution state that the Union is "perpetual" and there is little doubt that the states later ratifying the Constitution's "more perfect union," including the Southern states, failed to understand that. The only time it was tested in the 1800s, the Supreme Court declared secession illegal.

There are also questions about the percentage of Southerners who actually favored immediate secession (many favored a wait and see approach prior to the firing on Sumter). Some estimate that only a slim majority -- and some believe a minority -- favored outright secession prior to the commencement of hostilities. Southern states actually sent 100,000 troops to fight with the Union.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/how...cession.23264/

I must disagree that the winners prevailed in writing the dominant history of the Civil War. There have been competing narratives since the late 1800s but southern revisionists have been by far more successful in promoting their version. The idea that the war was over states rights was ardently promoted and romanticized by, among others, the Daughters of the Confederacy, who published endless books and pamphlets on the myth of the "lost cause." Many of these were taught to school children as a way of rationalizing their elders' actions during the war. We found one in the basement of our old house in Chattanooga and it was pure--but highly effective--propaganda about how well their slaves were treated until the northern aggressors destroyed the south's idyllic way of life.
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Old 10-17-2017, 08:17 AM   #42
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Historians overwhelmingly agree that the primary cause of the Civil War was slavery. Below is a discussion among some of them. They discuss the 169 signers of the South Carolina declaration to secede who listed preserving slavery as their major justification. Economics were far down the list.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs...civilwar_04-12

The Articles of Confederation preceding the Constitution state that the Union is "perpetual" and there is little doubt that the states later ratifying the Constitution's "more perfect union," including the Southern states, failed to understand that. The only time it was tested in the 1800s, the Supreme Court declared secession illegal.

There are also questions about the percentage of Southerners who actually favored immediate secession (many favored a wait and see approach prior to the firing on Sumter). Some estimate that only a slim majority -- and some believe a minority -- favored outright secession prior to the commencement of hostilities. Southern states actually sent 100,000 troops to fight with the Union.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/how...cession.23264/

I must disagree that the winners prevailed in writing the dominant history of the Civil War. There have been competing narratives since the late 1800s but southern revisionists have been by far more successful in promoting their version. The idea that the war was over states rights was ardently promoted and romanticized by, among others, the Daughters of the Confederacy, who published endless books and pamphlets on the myth of the "lost cause." Many of these were taught to school children as a way of rationalizing their elders' actions during the war. We found one in the basement of our old house in Chattanooga and it was pure--but highly effective--propaganda about how well their slaves were treated until the northern aggressors destroyed the south's idyllic way of life.
Well, I certainly realize that that is the Yankee viewpoint. It just doesn't get much traction down here. If you are willing to kill enough people in an area, you can always force the rest of the people there to do what you want. But, you can't force them to think what you want.

Do you really think the Constitution would have been ratified, if during the deliberations, one state's representative had stood up and asked, "Well, what happens if we decide this union isn't working for us and we want to leave?" and, the head of the convention answered, "Oh, we will just send troops in, and destroy your towns and property, and keep killing your citizens until they change their mind and want to stay in again."?

You really think anyone would have voluntarily signed up for that program? People who had just gone through that with the British a few years before? I don't.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:44 AM   #43
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History was altered in schools in much of the south. In the 50's and 60's, the teaching of US History was that the Civil War was not about slavery but was over States' rights. This was at the same time segregation continued throughout society and NC was one of the more moderate southern states. Well, the truth is that the Civil War was 100% about only one state right and that was the right to own slaves.

Oh and we deluded ourselves with another false premise as we said we had separate but equal. We never had that. So, in 1960, we had the first sit-in strikes in Greensboro. Peaceful demonstrations by blacks just wanting to be able to eat at the same lunch counters as whites. Then 11 years later we had the first court ordered busing as part of desegregation. Gradually some progress made in school integration but little made in other aspects of life.

Once again, people settled into a comfort zone, lying to themselves that the inequalities of race had been solved and that we truly did have equal opportunity within our society.

Now, if racism was truly just a part of our past history and not part of the present then all would have been well perhaps. However, that's not the case. It still exists to an extent that was as a country should be ashamed of. While the great majority of law enforcement does their job properly we had several cases of blacks being murdered by white policemen. We continued with a society where a black man was far more likely to be stopped on the roads, in the same car, in the same neighborhood.

We hadn't learned from the history because we lied to ourselves about the truth of both the history and progress since. A Charlottesville, VA city councilwoman wondered whether the city should discuss removing the confederate statues. She received death threats as a result simply of asking the question.

In 2016, a high school student petitioned the city council which appointed a special commission, which recommended the city could either relocate the Lee statue or transform it with the inclusion of new accurate historical information. The city council voted in February to remove the statue.

However, here's where we find out what the statue truly stands for. Not for history, or historians would have been the ones protesting it's possible removal. No, white supremacists carrying swastika's and waving confederate flags, were the ones marching and yelling vile racist slogans. The opposition to the removal made it clear what they stand for. They made it clear the same attitudes as those embraced by the KKK still exist. They made it clear that racism and bigotry are still very much alive in our society. They made it clear by their actions that the statues are symbols, not just to blacks, but to them of racism and of white supremacy.

There are cities that have relocated statues to historical facilities or areas and put them in place as part of history. However, those who led the protests in Charlottesville weren't viewing them as history but as a sign of white supremacy and a racism they wanted to continue.

We've tried long enough to claim we're not a country that had slaves and continue today with racism and inequality. Now, one who protests peacefully is labeled as unpatriotic and yet those waving confederate flags are not in many places.

Racism and bigotry are at the highest level I'm known during my lifetime. I'm proud to live in South Florida where they are at a minimum compared to my home state and many other areas. We've had politicians who have made hate and bigotry ok again and it's carried over into every level of society. The issues seen in the schools have increased significantly with kids openly saying things now they hid before. We have decided it's ok to hate based on race, ok to hate based on national origin, ok to hate based on religion, ok to hate based on sexual orientation, ok to hate based on ethnicity. We've shown clearly that we don't consider Puerto Ricans equals.

And much of this we do under the label of patriotism. Yet, our country was established based on all men being created equal.

The confederate flag always bothered me. It's holding on to something that should have died a century and half ago. The statues didn't bother me. There are many statues around the country I don't like that have nothing to do with the Civil War. However, they do bother me now. They bother me because the marchers in Charlottesville made it clear what they represent today. They represent the worst of us and our society. They represent groups that still refuse to recognize and treat others as equals. See, it's not those against the statues who have made it clear what they stand for. No, it's those fighting to save them who have done so.

Grant and Lee should be history. However, you saw in Charlottesville what the Lee statue represents and it's very ugly. It's not history. I wish it was. I'm white and not Jewish, but don't dare wave a confederate flag or a swastika in front of me.

I wish this country was truly the one we claim the flag stands for. Until it is, I will continue to fight as much as one man can to make it that. Perhaps I stand no better chance than Don Quixote did but I will continue as in Man of La Mancha with:

To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go
To right the unrightable wrong
To love pure and chaste from afar
To try when your arms are too weary
To reach the unreachable star

This is my quest
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless
No matter how far

To fight for the right
Without question or pause
To be willing to march into Hell
For a heavenly cause

And I know if I'll only be true
To this glorious quest
That my heart will lie peaceful and calm
When I'm laid to my rest

And the world will be better for this
That one man, scorned and covered with scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star
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Old 10-17-2017, 12:26 PM   #44
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I guess it's really inconvenient and awkward when a defeated people just won't stay defeated. But, that's always been the problem with war and killing people to achieve a political end. It usually doesn't fix anything so much as it just postpones it for a while.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:12 PM   #45
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I guess it's really inconvenient and awkward when a defeated people just won't stay defeated. But, that's always been the problem with war and killing people to achieve a political end. It usually doesn't fix anything so much as it just postpones it for a while.
People who think that way are defeating themselves with mindless devotion to a past that never existed. I've lived in the South for over 50 years . . . many southerners understand that the confederacy was a dead end and have moved on with their lives. Even Lee urged his former followers to put the war behind them and be Americans:

"Madam, don't bring up your sons to detest the United States government. Recollect that we form one country now. Abandon all these local animosities, and make your sons Americans."
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Old 10-18-2017, 09:40 AM   #46
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People who think that way are defeating themselves with mindless devotion to a past that never existed. I've lived in the South for over 50 years . . . many southerners understand that the confederacy was a dead end and have moved on with their lives. Even Lee urged his former followers to put the war behind them and be Americans:

"Madam, don't bring up your sons to detest the United States government. Recollect that we form one country now. Abandon all these local animosities, and make your sons Americans."
.
Robert E. Lee whose statutes are being torn down by the winners who have forgotten about the war and moved on? That Robert E. Lee?
Yeah, that's why we're such a united country right now, with half thinking our President is the greatest thing since canned beer, and the other half thinking he is a crazy devil.

That you can't kill your way to peace and unity, is a lesson that some people never learn.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:44 AM   #47
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.
Robert E. Lee whose statutes are being torn down by the winners who have forgotten about the war and moved on? That Robert E. Lee?
Yeah, that's why we're such a united country right now, with half thinking our President is the greatest thing since canned beer, and the other half thinking he is a crazy devil.

That you can't kill your way to peace and unity, is a lesson that some people never learn.
Yes, the Robert E. Lee who, in accordance with his own wishes, some local communities have decided to no longer have a statue erected in his honor—often in the most conspicuous public places, like court houses where justice for all is supposed to be dispensed. How, exactly, is it disrespecting Lee to agree to his own publicly stated desire not to have statues commemorating him or the Confederacy?

According to historian Jonathan Horn, Lee was often consulted in his lifetime about proposals to erect monuments to Confederate Gen. Stonewall Jackson and others.

In a 1866 letter to fellow Confederate Gen. Thomas L. Rosser, Lee wrote, "As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated, my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt ... would have the effect of ... continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour."

Three years later, Lee was invited to a meeting of Union and Confederate officers to mark the placing of a memorial honoring those who took part in the battle of Gettysburg.

"I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered," he wrote in a letter declining the invitation.

(FWIW, I think Lee was an honorable man who came to loathe slavery but allowed himself to be caught up in a dishonorable cause that wealthy plantation owners rammed down the throats of the southern states.)

To help understand why statues of Confederate leaders are opposed in many communities, maybe it would be helpful to look at it through the eyes of people whose ancestors were slaves. People who, after the war, were lynched if they were deemed too uppity in their interactions with whites. So how about if I decided to erect statues to Gen. William T. Sherman outside of every courthouse in every town he burned on his march to the sea? Would you sign on to this effort to preserve history?

As for killing your way to peace and unity, I agree with you. Try reading “1861” by Adam Goodheart to see the list of steps that Congress tried to keep the South in the Union before the Confederacy bombarded Fort Sumter. The sticking point, as always, came down to the expansion of slavery.
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Old 10-18-2017, 12:06 PM   #48
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Quote: B&B ( I'm white and not Jewish, but don't dare wave a confederate flag in front of me. Quote)

I dare-now what?

(I fly the confederate flag on my bow staff)
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Old 10-18-2017, 12:11 PM   #49
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Quote: B&B ( I'm white and not Jewish, but don't dare wave a confederate flag or a swastika in front of me. Quote)

I dare-now what?
Amazing how proud you seem to be to do so.

And, no, even in person I would do nothing physical to harm you. I don't physically attempt to fight white supremacists, Nazis, racists, or bigots. I just reject their hatred for fellow human beings.
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Old 10-18-2017, 01:42 PM   #50
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Yes, the Robert E. Lee who, in accordance with his own wishes, some local communities have decided to no longer have a statue erected in his honor—often in the most conspicuous public places, like court houses where justice for all is supposed to be dispensed. How, exactly, is it disrespecting Lee to agree to his own publicly stated desire not to have statues commemorating him or the Confederacy?

According to historian Jonathan Horn, Lee was often consulted in his lifetime about proposals to erect monuments to Confederate Gen. Stonewall Jackson and others.

In a 1866 letter to fellow Confederate Gen. Thomas L. Rosser, Lee wrote, "As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated, my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt ... would have the effect of ... continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour."

Three years later, Lee was invited to a meeting of Union and Confederate officers to mark the placing of a memorial honoring those who took part in the battle of Gettysburg.

"I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered," he wrote in a letter declining the invitation.

(FWIW, I think Lee was an honorable man who came to loathe slavery but allowed himself to be caught up in a dishonorable cause that wealthy plantation owners rammed down the throats of the southern states.)

To help understand why statues of Confederate leaders are opposed in many communities, maybe it would be helpful to look at it through the eyes of people whose ancestors were slaves. People who, after the war, were lynched if they were deemed too uppity in their interactions with whites. So how about if I decided to erect statues to Gen. William T. Sherman outside of every courthouse in every town he burned on his march to the sea? Would you sign on to this effort to preserve history?

As for killing your way to peace and unity, I agree with you. Try reading “1861” by Adam Goodheart to see the list of steps that Congress tried to keep the South in the Union before the Confederacy bombarded Fort Sumter. The sticking point, as always, came down to the expansion of slavery.
Look, I get that you think the reason I don't agree with you is that you think you know more, have read more, and have thought more, about this than me. I really do.
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Old 10-18-2017, 02:08 PM   #51
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Amazing how proud you seem to be to do so.

And, no, even in person I would do nothing physical to harm you. I don't physically attempt to fight white supremacists, Nazis, racists, or bigots. I just reject their hatred for fellow human beings.
The way I roll, reject away!!
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Old 10-18-2017, 03:13 PM   #52
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Look, I get that you think the reason I don't agree with you is that you think you know more, have read more, and have thought more, about this than me. I really do.
Not at all, sir. I respect your right to your opinions. But what’s wrong with having read about, thought about and reconsidered some of the facts behind the myths? It’s easy to be outraged over a statue of Lee being removed or relocated from a public space due to a local community decision until you read what Lee himself thought about statues. In any case, what right do any of us have to tell a particular community what statue they have to keep or discard? We are not talking about desecrating graves or sacred relics . . . they’re statues, many of which were erected in the Jim Crow era to keep blacks in their place. Keeping or losing them should be a community decision.

I have watched many members of my family rethink beliefs about the Confederacy that they grew up with, never questioning. I’ve done so as well. It wasn’t easy to challenge myself on those beliefs but for me it was necessary to go where the truth led. One truth is that the world is changing and the symbols of the Confederacy are being used today by some who are the scum of the earth to promote the vilest possible divisions in our country. Lee would have been the first to oppose this. I also believe that anyone who loves the South or longs for unity—as I believe you do—should protest it.
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