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Old 09-07-2017, 09:51 AM   #21
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One thing lost in considering the South is the long period of reconstruction. The South didn't really start rising out of the reconstruction period until after WWII. There were few jobs available, and those to be had were low paying. I can remember the desperate poverty of Appalachia. The mountains were dotted with one and two men and a horse coal mines. It was subsistence living. Others were forced to work hard scrabble farms. Moonshining surfaced because it produced cash, and turned corn into an easily transported commodity out of the mountains.

In our area Chattanooga was rightly known as a carpetbagger town. We were along with Birmingham manufacturing centers. After the Civil War carpetbaggers descended on Chattanooga to take over the banking and much of the industry. The rest of the industry was scooped up by Union officers. Some northern companies opened plants in the South to take advantage of the cheap labor. There is a strong connection in Chattanooga to Cincinnati, Ohio. So, what was left for Southerners? Very little. We treated Japan and Germany better than the South was treated. Are there lingering resentments? Some, but those that can remember what I can remember are fading away. Life in the South is pretty good on the whole. The younger generation will not remember what their parents and grand parents did to provide for them.

Now, northerners are retiring to the South's sunshine belt to take advantage of weather and cheaper living. Most made their money else where.
Besides, whoever heard of a Southerner retiring to the North?

That's just my take on the situation. One war was fought over others meddling in our affairs. We don't need or want another.
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Old 09-07-2017, 10:29 AM   #22
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"To me, however, there should remain a difference between how we memorialize those those who initiated an armed struggle to dissolve the nation (on behalf of the right to own slaves)."

That was the war winners story.

Happily the libraries that hold the newspapers of the time have not yet been burned.

Anyone that wants to can research the true cause of the war between the states as well as the reasons the democrats started the KKK , and continued Jim Crow into the 1960's.

"secession vs overthrow,-which is everyone's legal right--

Secession is/ was legal, and was talked about between some northern states for years, but the south was paying the vast majority of taxes (from importing and exporting) , so they stuck with the union.

"and firing cannon at American soldiers to effectively overthrow the Federal government in my state."

After the secession began the fort in Charlston SC was resupplied .

What would the response be if the forts in the NY harbor were resupplied by the south?
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:56 PM   #23
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My thoughts below:

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"To me, however, there should remain a difference between how we memorialize those those who initiated an armed struggle to dissolve the nation (on behalf of the right to own slaves)."

That was the war winners story. It's the consensus of scholars from the north and south.

Happily the libraries that hold the newspapers of the time have not yet been burned. you get your newspapers and I'll get mine. (Honestly though, I have never known you to cite newspaper accounts)

Anyone that wants to can research the true cause of the war between the states as well as the reasons the democrats started the KKK , and continued Jim Crow into the 1960's. Sorry, I'm calling BS on this one. Whatever the reasons may have been for their founding, the Klan and Jim Crow became a nightmare for African Americans and an unmitigated disaster for the South. Anyone who wants to can research the almost 3,500 blacks who were lynched between the Civil War and 1968--or the 1,200 whites . . . many of whom were lynched for helping blacks . . . complete with photos.

"secession vs overthrow,-which is everyone's legal right--

Secession is/ was legal, and was talked about between some northern states for years, but the south was paying the vast majority of taxes (from importing and exporting) , so they stuck with the union. That's been argued since the founding of the nation; the only time it's been tested in the Supreme Court, the right of a state to secede was rejected.

"and firing cannon at American soldiers to effectively overthrow the Federal government in my state."

After the secession began the fort in Charlston SC was resupplied .

What would the response be if the forts in the NY harbor were resupplied by the south? My guess: a blockade and wait them out. Lincoln wasn't going to fire the first shot.
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Old 09-07-2017, 03:34 PM   #24
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I think it's important to remember (this is history, BTW so let's not forget it) that since the beginning of time, countries or groups of people have fought other countries or groups of people and the winners either killed the losers or enslaved them. The Pyramids and most of the historic buildings in the middle east and Europe were built by slaves. Not black slaves, but slaves none the less.

Many of the African slaves imported into the US and other new world countries were captured not by slave traders, but by other African tribes and then sold to the slave traders.

It's only in the last couple hundred years that the thought of owning other people has become to be thought of as wrong. People who owned slaves did not think this was wrong at the time. It was quite normal for well off people to own slaves.

We know now that holding other humans in slavery is wrong, but the common thought a couple hundred years ago was that it was not. It seems unfair to tear down statues and attempt to erase history for something that was acceptable at the time.

If we begin erasing everything that might possibly offend someone, we would not only be tearing down statues, we would be tearing down or renaming buildings, bridges and roads. And renaming streets and waterways.

Just like each of us as individuals, our country has done things in the past that many of us are not proud of. It's part of our history though and we should keep these things in mind as we head into the future. And try not to make the same mistakes again.
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Old 09-07-2017, 06:03 PM   #25
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I just want to thank all the posters here for keeping this as a civil discussion. No name calling or personal attacks. It is readily apparent that there are strong feelings on each side.

Please check the birth and death dates on my grandsons' ancestor's grave marker. Born 1840. John Parramore was a very young man when he rode off to far away places with the 5th Georgia Calvary. He was mustered out in North Carolina trying to catch Sherman's army when the war ended. He had no slaves, so not fighting to preserve slavery. He was fighting to protect his homeland.
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Old 09-07-2017, 06:20 PM   #26
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................ He was fighting to protect his homeland.
That's where the arguing begins. He was fighting to protect a way of life. Either way, his "homeland" was safe and his to go back to.
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Old 09-07-2017, 07:34 PM   #27
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I can see how you can think that, but there were extenuating circumstances. You see both Grant and Sherman were fighters. Grant loved Sherman and sent him through Georgia on a scorched earth policy. It was really a form of unrestricted warfare. Grant and Sherman wanted the civilian population to suffer so horribly that they would cry for surrender. Back then there were no "rules of engagement" so to speak.

When Sherman left Chattanooga to head for Atlanta there were a few skirmishes along the way. Then he laid siege to Atlanta, captured it, and burned the whole city. That's when he started his infamous march to the sea through Georgia. Their policy was to loot the homes of all valuables, steal the live stock, and burn the crops in the field. They even burned several homes. The point was that they would starve the population into submission. Sherman did this all the way through Macon and on to Savannah. He reached Savannah by Christmas. He was so taken with the beauty of the city that he ordered it not be burned. He set up his headquarters on one of the beautiful squares, and sent a message to President Lincoln. It said something like Mr. President I give you Savannah for Christmas.

Then Sherman left Savannah heading into the Carolinas with the same policy. That's when the 5th GA Cav took off after his army. So, you see many, many of the Southern troops had nothing to go home to but what was left of family.

I'm not passing judgement on if what Grant and Sherman did was wrong. They were fighters, and wanted to end the war as soon as possible. They were also amazing generals. Robert E. Lee was too much of a gentleman to do something like that, but Grant and Sherman were street fighters---not gentlemen in any way. The South did take some food to feed their troops when above the Mason-Dixon Line, but left food for the populace.

I think of Grant and Sherman in the same way of Patton. They loved the fight.

Now, let's go back to the start of the war. Lincoln had McClellan for the Union Army commander. McClellan would not fight for fear of losing. That would ruin his political aspirations. He frustrated Lincoln so badly that Lincoln wanted to fire him. Politically McClellan was the fair haired boy. He had so many political friends that Lincoln dared not fire him. The war was going badly in the East. One of the shining stars for Lincoln was Grant in the West. Grant came down to Nashville then on to Shiloh. Shiloh was a bloody battle with 10,000 casualties in one day. Grant made the South retreat for the first time. Grant went down through Mississippi and prevailed at Vicksburg. Then Lincoln fired McCellan and you know the rest of the story.
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Old 09-08-2017, 12:08 AM   #28
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[QUOTE=angus99;589805]have been co-opted by ultra right-wing racists /QUOTE]

I guess that would be me. I voted for Trump. But let me tell you how I treat this over used term:

On an additional quandary to discuss: There is a monument dedicated to the Buffalo Soldiers, the Black regiment formed in 1866 that slaughtered Native Americans. What the Hell do we do with this one?

The whole mess is one big educational success by those not of the right as those of the left who control the public education system. It only take one or two generations to change the scope and direction of society. We are witnessing the results of the 60's coming home to roost much like Rev. Wright projected.
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Old 09-08-2017, 01:03 AM   #29
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Quote:
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By the way, the stars and bars came from the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. There were over 600,000 casualties in that war. Let them all rest in peace.
I fly the "Stars and Bars" off my bow pennant shaft out of the sheer hypocrisy of the times.

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Old 09-08-2017, 08:52 AM   #30
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[QUOTE=Al;590969]
Quote:
Originally Posted by angus99 View Post
have been co-opted by ultra right-wing racists /QUOTE]

I guess that would be me. I voted for Trump. But let me tell you how I treat this over used term:

I never said all Trump voters were ultra right wing-racists; unless you were marching with the nazis in Charlottesville, I doubt you are one.

On an additional quandary to discuss: There is a monument dedicated to the Buffalo Soldiers, the Black regiment formed in 1866 that slaughtered Native Americans. What the Hell do we do with this one? Beats me. Ask some Native Americans. Do we have to avoid considering any injustice because we can't solve every injustice? The point is groups that were brutally oppressed throughout history finally have a way for their voices and grievances to be heard. As a white man, I may not like or agree with everything I hear, but I'm not going to automatically reject it without considering their merits.

The whole mess is one big educational success by those not of the right as those of the left who control the public education system. It only take one or two generations to change the scope and direction of society. We are witnessing the results of the 60's coming home to roost much like Rev. Wright projected. This certainly seems to threaten some folks. Personally, I form my opinions by reading perspectives from both sides, avoiding echo chambers and talking to people, including an ancient black man I once knew who had been raised with former slaves. I don't give a rat's ass if the truth happens to agree with the right or left. My opinions aren't based on the culture wars.
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Old 09-08-2017, 11:21 AM   #31
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I can see how you can think that, but there were extenuating circumstances. You see both Grant and Sherman were fighters. Grant loved Sherman and sent him through Georgia on a scorched earth policy. It was really a form of unrestricted warfare. Grant and Sherman wanted the civilian population to suffer so horribly that they would cry for surrender. Back then there were no "rules of engagement" so to speak.

When Sherman left Chattanooga to head for Atlanta there were a few skirmishes along the way. Then he laid siege to Atlanta, captured it, and burned the whole city. That's when he started his infamous march to the sea through Georgia. Their policy was to loot the homes of all valuables, steal the live stock, and burn the crops in the field. They even burned several homes. The point was that they would starve the population into submission. Sherman did this all the way through Macon and on to Savannah. He reached Savannah by Christmas. He was so taken with the beauty of the city that he ordered it not be burned. He set up his headquarters on one of the beautiful squares, and sent a message to President Lincoln. It said something like Mr. President I give you Savannah for Christmas.

Then Sherman left Savannah heading into the Carolinas with the same policy. That's when the 5th GA Cav took off after his army. So, you see many, many of the Southern troops had nothing to go home to but what was left of family.

I'm not passing judgement on if what Grant and Sherman did was wrong. They were fighters, and wanted to end the war as soon as possible. They were also amazing generals. Robert E. Lee was too much of a gentleman to do something like that, but Grant and Sherman were street fighters---not gentlemen in any way. The South did take some food to feed their troops when above the Mason-Dixon Line, but left food for the populace.

I think of Grant and Sherman in the same way of Patton. They loved the fight.

Now, let's go back to the start of the war. Lincoln had McClellan for the Union Army commander. McClellan would not fight for fear of losing. That would ruin his political aspirations. He frustrated Lincoln so badly that Lincoln wanted to fire him. Politically McClellan was the fair haired boy. He had so many political friends that Lincoln dared not fire him. The war was going badly in the East. One of the shining stars for Lincoln was Grant in the West. Grant came down to Nashville then on to Shiloh. Shiloh was a bloody battle with 10,000 casualties in one day. Grant made the South retreat for the first time. Grant went down through Mississippi and prevailed at Vicksburg. Then Lincoln fired McCellan and you know the rest of the story.
That's all well and good, but the other way to look at this is, your relative committed treason. He was a US citizen, living in the USA but fighting the government. Not a lot different than what we call "terrorists" today.

Did the north "punish the south? Yep, pretty much so. Not a lot different than if you pick a fight with someone and lose.

The war is over and has been for more than 150 years, but unfortunately, some folks are still fighting it. Not with guns, but with attitude and more subtle talk and actions.
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Old 09-08-2017, 11:22 AM   #32
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The Pyramids and most of the historic buildings in the middle east and Europe were built by slaves.

Thread hijack alert! I'm going with the, "aliens built the pyramids" theory.
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Old 09-08-2017, 05:30 PM   #33
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Moonstruck- I really enjoy and appreciate your review of Southern history and the history of the Civil War as it was taught to me and confirmed later as an adult reading historical data and tomes of the war's history by THOSE WHO were there. I'd like to add a small bit of history on General Lee and his family ties along with the philosophy he believed in. Is it true? I will accept is as such pending verification that it is not.
Al-Ketchikan












Your history lesson for the day.............




Robert E Lee was married to George Washington's granddaughter.

Lee worked with Grant during the Mexican-American war and became a
decorated war hero defending this country.
He believed slavery was a great evil and his wife broke the law by
teaching slaves to read and write. After the civil war he worked with Andrew
Johnson's program of reconstruction. He became very popular with the northern
states and the Barracks at West Point were named in his honor in 1962. He was a
great man who served this country his entire life in some form or other.

His memorial is now being called a blight.

No American military veteran should be treated as such. People
keep yelling, "You can't change history." Sadly you can. This is no
better than book burnings.

ISIS tried rewriting history by destroying historical
artifacts. Is that really who we want to emulate?

As they tear down this "blight" keep these few
historical facts in your mind. No military veteran and highly decorated war
hero should ever be treated as such.

This is not Iraq and that is not a statue of Sadam.



IN ADDITION:: Lee was also very torn about the prospect of the
South leaving the Union. His wife's grandfather George Washington was a huge
influence on him. He believed that ultimately, states rights trumped the
federal government and chose to lead the Southern army. His estate, Arlington,
near Washington DC was his home and while away fighting the war, the federal
government demanded that Lee himself pay his taxes in person. He sent his wife
but the money was not accepted from a woman. When he could not pay the taxes,
the government began burying dead Union soldiers on his land. The government is
still burying people there today.



It
is now called Arlington National Cemetery.



DO
THEY WANT TO TEAR THAT UP ALSO ??







Also the Confederate Soldiers buried in Arlington have different shaped tombstones than the Union Soldiers. The Confederate Soldiers tombstones are pointed at the top whereas the Union Soldiers tombstones are rounded. The Confederate Army did not want the Union Soldier's relatives to sit their butts on their Soldier's tombstones....there is a difference...... if you have been there and noticed.
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Old 09-13-2017, 12:37 PM   #34
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Just saw this, and thought it may apply here. You may think it does or maybe not, but it is a thoughtful presentation.

https://www.ted.com/talks/caitlin_qu...&utm_medium=so
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al View Post
Moonstruck- I really enjoy and appreciate your review of Southern history and the history of the Civil War as it was taught to me and confirmed later as an adult reading historical data and tomes of the war's history by THOSE WHO were there. I'd like to add a small bit of history on General Lee and his family ties along with the philosophy he believed in. Is it true? I will accept is as such pending verification that it is not.
Al-Ketchikan












Your history lesson for the day.............




Robert E Lee was married to George Washington's granddaughter.

Lee worked with Grant during the Mexican-American war and became a
decorated war hero defending this country.
He believed slavery was a great evil and his wife broke the law by
teaching slaves to read and write. After the civil war he worked with Andrew
Johnson's program of reconstruction. He became very popular with the northern
states and the Barracks at West Point were named in his honor in 1962. He was a
great man who served this country his entire life in some form or other.

His memorial is now being called a blight.

No American military veteran should be treated as such. People
keep yelling, "You can't change history." Sadly you can. This is no
better than book burnings.

ISIS tried rewriting history by destroying historical
artifacts. Is that really who we want to emulate?

As they tear down this "blight" keep these few
historical facts in your mind. No military veteran and highly decorated war
hero should ever be treated as such.

This is not Iraq and that is not a statue of Sadam.



IN ADDITION:: Lee was also very torn about the prospect of the
South leaving the Union. His wife's grandfather George Washington was a huge
influence on him. He believed that ultimately, states rights trumped the
federal government and chose to lead the Southern army. His estate, Arlington,
near Washington DC was his home and while away fighting the war, the federal
government demanded that Lee himself pay his taxes in person. He sent his wife
but the money was not accepted from a woman. When he could not pay the taxes,
the government began burying dead Union soldiers on his land. The government is
still burying people there today.



It
is now called Arlington National Cemetery.



DO
THEY WANT TO TEAR THAT UP ALSO ??







Also the Confederate Soldiers buried in Arlington have different shaped tombstones than the Union Soldiers. The Confederate Soldiers tombstones are pointed at the top whereas the Union Soldiers tombstones are rounded. The Confederate Army did not want the Union Soldier's relatives to sit their butts on their Soldier's tombstones....there is a difference...... if you have been there and noticed.
Another great American general, right up till he went to the other side: Benedict Arnold.

America’s Monument to Its Most Infamous Traitor, Benedict Arnold - Neatorama
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:36 PM   #36
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Don't mean or want to change the direction, accept this as a sidebar:

Talking about civil war. Somewhere early on this day I read the following, Maybe on the forum-

"Folks keep talking about another civil war. One side has 8 trillion bullets. The other side doesn't know which bathroom to use."
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Old 10-15-2017, 10:12 AM   #37
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Until certain groups have it changed to suit their political views.

It has been said that a civilization that ignores its history is bound to repeat it. That's something to think about.
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Old 10-15-2017, 12:40 PM   #38
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Lee, Jackson and Davis were enemies of the United States of America.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
That's all well and good, but the other way to look at this is, your relative committed treason. He was a US citizen, living in the USA but fighting the government. Not a lot different than what we call "terrorists" today.

Interesting turns of phrase.

I expect depends on how one might view the Constitutional question about "the right of secession"...

If one believes one has been granted from the git-go the Constitutional right to secede from the previous Union, being an "enemy" of the U.S.A. or the word "treason" might become irrelevent...

Depends on the eye of the beholder, I expect. Or the pen of the definer.

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Old 10-15-2017, 01:21 PM   #39
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History is history and the idea that removing statues changes it is nonsense.

Have you considered that the current view of history many embrace was, itself, changed to suit the political views of the early and mid-20th century, when denying equal rights to blacks was taken for granted? It's often been said that the south lost the war, but won the PR battle to interpret it. The idea of the "lost cause" of the confederacy was post-Civil War revisionism -- an invention of southern states in the days of Jim Crow and reinforced during the 50s and 60s desegregation battles. Lee, himself, did not want any statues built to commemorate him, but argued that the war should be put behind us to heal the nation's wounds.

I was raised in the south and believe it should be up to local communities to determine what statues appear in their public squares, particularly those places where people of all races go to receive justice. I can understand why a banner that was used to enslave millions would be offensive to their ancestors, just as a swastika is to others. Finally, the argument that removing -- or relocating -- monuments to those who led an armed insurrection to preserve slavery will lead to removing statues of founders who owned slaves is yet another false equivalence. Washington and Jefferson owned slaves but did not take up arms against the United States. Would you build statues today to commemorate militia leaders that violently seek to overthrow the government?
The South wasn't trying to take over the United States. They were trying to leave.While the former might be legitimately viewed as treason, I don't know how you call it that in a reprentative democracy when the elected leaders voted to leave.

And, the war was about slavery. But, about other things more important to the north as well. There was no income tax back then. Federal revenue came through tariffs, 75 per cent of which were generated in southern ports. The north simply could not afford financially to let the South leave.Taking all of that together, the Civil War was over money and power, like just about every other war before or since.

And, I think it has been well proven at this point, that forcing people to stay in a Union that they didn't want to be in by killing a few hundred thousand of them, is not exactly the greatest recipe for a United country. You can make someone submit to just about anything with enough physical force, but it doesn't mean you are going to make them like it. And, if you think it is strange that the South still holds a grudge, go visit some defeated and conquered people in other countries and see how long those feelings can last.
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Old 10-15-2017, 01:31 PM   #40
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Interesting turns of phrase.

I expect depends on how one might view the Constitutional question about "the right of secession"...

If one believes one has been granted from the git-go the Constitutional right to secede from the previous Union, being an "enemy" of the U.S.A. or the word "treason" might become irrelevent...

Depends on the eye of the beholder, I expect. Or the pen of the definer.

-Chris
The winners of a war always get to write the history. Read old Soviet history on why they were justified in conquering half of Europe post WW2. They made their case well.
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