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Old 05-10-2019, 07:22 AM   #101
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1984 was supposed to be a warning, not a how-to manual.
Good line. Consider it stolen.
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Old 05-10-2019, 07:33 AM   #102
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It doesn't mean the world as we know it is coming to an end.
And yet, from the reactions of some people, you'd think it was, wouldn't you?
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Old 05-10-2019, 09:06 PM   #103
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Now wondering if any female owners of boats refer to them as "him" or if they go "she" or go both ways. .
Seaweed is a she.

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Doesn't cost a thing to be polite and chivalrous. Ah. I also remove my hat if a woman and I happen to share an elevator.
Manners displayed are definitely appreciated. And yes, I do like it when a gent opens the car door for me. Of course I could do it for myself however I feel Treasured when a man goes out of his way to help me.

When did showing respect for another become passe?

It bothers me that today's standards are applied to the past. There is nothing wrong with most traditions.

I find a comfort in doing things as they have been done for generations. When I made blackberry preserves, I'm not just cooking and canning fruit. I am building on memories made decades ago. I am sharing my past in the present, with hopes that it will continue into the future.

As for museums, they are representatives of the past. Shouldn't they show things as they were?!? Perhaps a plaque saying that "now we say XYZ however back then..."

Regarding ships: They are referred to as female. However, if you listened to old time warship captains they referred to other carriers as "he"
That was a way for folks to figure out who was captain and who was crew. Crew called the boats She while the captains were referring to them as He (referencing their counterpart on the other ship)

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Been thinkin' of opening a comedy club called, "Anything Goes." With so many stand-up comedians out of work due to PC it should pack em' in.
Don Rickles could be the headliner....

Anyway, as for me, I will stick with the traditions. I am tired of a vocal minority shoving their agenda. Daddy used to say

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

The silent majority exists. I believe most people are good. It is a sorry state when the obnoxious get the press. Deface property and get your way. That's sure a good example of what not to do. Caving to political pressure may be Easy. That doesn't make it right.

As for the museum: I won't ever get to that museum so my opinion doesn't much count. Nonetheless, it does make me sad that the things I held up as tradition (calling boats she for instance) are now considered terrible and must be erased.

Whitewashing history is a sure fire way to end up repeating it down the road. Holding decisions made in the past to today's standards leaves me feeling as if no choice is ever going to survive scrutiny in the future.
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Old 05-10-2019, 10:03 PM   #104
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Well said, Janice.
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Old 05-11-2019, 05:38 AM   #105
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Holding decisions made in the past to today's standards leaves me feeling as if no choice is ever going to survive scrutiny in the future.
I would be careful using that generalization.

There are many many things where applying today's standards versus historical has been absolutely the right thing to do.

Emancipation, minorities, women, etc.

Workers rights, especially blue collar, protection against workplace harassment, child labor laws.

Environmental protections and use of natural resources.

There are many more examples. As we mature we realize that past behavior needs to change.

So, while not specifically on how we refer to ships, I hope we do continue to challenge past standards - even current ones as we continue to evolve.
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:17 AM   #106
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As we mature we realize that past behavior needs to change.

If you believe PC is a process by which we ‘mature’, you are beyond help and reason.
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:22 AM   #107
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greetings,
Mr. m. A most excellent comment! Humanity would never evolve if "norms" were not brought into question. As well as the items you mentioned, the world would still be flat, science in ANY form would not exist and man would still be living in trees (maybe not a bad thing).


That being said, I still have a major issue with 51 different genders...Male, female, other SHOULD suffice for anyone who feels they're "different".
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:27 AM   #108
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If you believe PC is a process by which we ‘mature’, you are beyond help and reason.
Can we keep the personal insults out of this if possible?

Thanks.

Now to the PC "process." In their day the suffragettes would have been seen to be a PC crowd. Running on to race courses, tying themselves to railings etc.

I guess giving the women the vote was bowing to PC pressure given some definitions above, and it certainly would have been seen as such by a large group at the time.

A more argumentative example is the flying of the Confederate flag. PC to stop it - or we really don't care?

Have at that one
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Old 05-11-2019, 07:29 AM   #109
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"Whitewashing history is a sure fire way to end up repeating it down the road. Holding decisions made in the past to today's standards leaves me feeling as if no choice is ever going to survive scrutiny in the future."


I agree Janice, especially this part. Anyone who has ever made important decisions dreads what the future will do in ctriticizing their best effort.


I think the concept is " putting things in the right context" which requires thought, not just smearing it with PC catch phrases.


What many people miss here is ...change is often OK and often necessary , but be careful how you label everything in the past without taking everything into account
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Old 05-11-2019, 08:12 AM   #110
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A more argumentative example is the flying of the Confederate flag. PC to stop it - or we really don't care?

Have at that one

Confederate flag
Black Pride flag
Black Lives Matter flag
Gay Pride flag
Hillary flag
Trump flag
Vietnam Vets flag
Antifa flag
ISIS flag

I find several to be appalling...but I can get over it. However, the PC crew (the Enlightened Ones) believe they are the true arbiters of what is allowed and what is forbidden.
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Old 05-11-2019, 09:00 AM   #111
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The PC movement, in my mind, was generated by the same notion as the equally popular thought, that not allowing someone to speak of an opposing position was just as good as winning the argument.
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Old 05-11-2019, 10:01 AM   #112
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What is this "PC Movement?"
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Old 05-11-2019, 10:02 AM   #113
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The PC movement, in my mind, was generated by the same notion as the equally popular thought, that not allowing someone to speak of an opposing position was just as good as winning the argument.


Agreed. But one step further...now it is forbidden that you even think opposing views, much less speak them.
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Old 05-11-2019, 10:10 AM   #114
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Now this conversation is getting silly.
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Old 05-11-2019, 10:17 AM   #115
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There is the Washington monument ... Should we tear it down because he was less that perfect in today's PC world?


Was he overall a bad man or a less than perfect one with other positive attributes?


That's the point.



The Confederate flag (all of them) shouldn't probably be flown as a daily symbol over capitals, but to ban it from any or all public situations like museums or reenactments goes well beyond the concept of documenting history. A PC fine tooth comb could probably eliminate a lot of or all history if you really want to go that route. We can certainly be more accurate in detailing history, but banning bits and pieces due to PC is a slippery slope.
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Old 05-11-2019, 11:21 AM   #116
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Lots of folks (Folkettes , folk-Zhers , etc.) still can’t see the forest from the trees on this thread. The museum’s coerced bow to the insanity labeled as PC is the issue. It’s not about boats, but keep pretending.


There are several things that confuse me here and I’m not sure from whence it comes. First, I’m not sure that the Museum bowed to any coercion. Certainly the vandalism likely prompted the discussion but I think “So we have to replace this sign, what pronoun do we want to use for a ship in 2019?” is more likely than “we better use ‘it’ so we aren’t the victims of future PC terrorists”.

I agree with you that this issue really isn’t about the pronouns that we use for vessels. I think it is silly to argue about what pronoun a museum uses for a vessel. I would also agree that the use of the pronoun “she” is appropriate in the context of a museum if that is how the persons associated with the vessel while it was in use generally referred to her.

You have railed against “PC”. Your definition of PC, while clever in a juvenile kind of way, didn’t really help me understand what it is specifically that you seem to hate and fear so much. There are many actions and forms of speech that I have been used to using that are either offensive or exclusionary for those that aren’t white, male, Christian, and heterosexual. Most of the time, it doesn’t bother me to amend my speech to avoid inadvertently offending or excluding others. It doesn’t cost me anything. There are times when it is more difficult as certain traditions and habits are dear to me. However, I certainly don’t feel threatened by them.

So if I need to try to remember to say “I hope someone qualified runs for the seat on the city council” instead of saying “I hope someone qualified runs for city councilman” I am happy to do it if it means that I won’t give some little girl the mistaken idea that it is something she can never do. Likewise if a patient of mine is transitioning their sexual identity from male to female, I don’t have a problem referring to them as “she” instead of “he” if that is what they prefer. While those changes may be hard for an old fart like me, I can probably handle it.
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Old 05-11-2019, 11:36 AM   #117
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King County (Seattle) was named after William King, VP under Pres Pierce in 1852. In 2005, the county council changed it’s namesake to Martin Luther King because William King was a slave owner. The county logo is now an image of MLK. How is that for rewriting history to make everyone feel better?
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Old 05-11-2019, 12:07 PM   #118
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King County (Seattle) was named after William King, VP under Pres Pierce in 1852. In 2005, the county council changed it’s namesake to Martin Luther King because William King was a slave owner. The county logo is now an image of MLK. How is that for rewriting history to make everyone feel better?
Then there is the part about MLK being a known womanizer, going so far as to intimidate and bed wives of his associates. How long before he and JFK have to be thrown under the bus by the PC crowd?

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Old 05-11-2019, 12:32 PM   #119
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King County (Seattle) was named after William King, VP under Pres Pierce in 1852. In 2005, the county council changed it’s namesake to Martin Luther King because William King was a slave owner. The county logo is now an image of MLK. How is that for rewriting history to make everyone feel better?

In 1852 three new counties were split off from Thurston County. These were Jefferson, Pierce, and King. 1852 was also the year that Pierce and King were nominated by the Democratic Party to run for President and Vice-President. They won easily. At the time, Washington Territory was a relatively new addition to the US and its supporters were trying to promote its growth. I have to think that naming two new counties for the new President and Vice-presidential was primarily to curry favor.

Franklin Pierce was such a bad president that his own party didn’t even put him up for re-election in 1856. My county was left stuck with the name of a failed President. King county was stuck with the name of a failed President’s Vice-president. King county at least was able to salvage their name by renaming themselves after MLK. Pierce county has no such convenient solution and we are stuck being named for a failure.
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Old 05-11-2019, 12:49 PM   #120
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Wifey B: The so called PC. Not using derogatory terms to refer to Gays, Blacks, Jews, Irish, Chinese, Women, and others? Is that what you anti-PC'ers are against? Should you be able to insult anyone and call anyone any name you wish? Is that acceptable in your minds?

My idea of PC is to show respect to all people and I'm 100% in favor of it.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
"Love thy neighbor as thyself."

Are those radical new PC slogans? I thought they were hundreds, even thousands of years old.

Anyone notice that the persons most against PC are those attacking others most rudely and bullying oftentimes?

And PC isn't just about language. It's about respect and decency. It's about equality. And things are not fixed until we truly live in a world where we believe and live as "all persons are created equally." Oh and I do have no problem rewording that from the Declaration of Independence as I believe our founders put in today's world would do the same. Different times.

However, as we argue as if these things are new, think back to it.

If I use a term or phrase that is offensive to other groups of people, even if not my intent, then I want to be educated as to it's hurtfulness and I want to cease using it. Words do hurt. Why? Because often they are accompanied by a deeper attitude and because often they are reminders of attitudes, prejudice, bigotry, and hatred. Sometimes it's so very subtle. I knew a very large man, gentle and friendly, who his friends often would use phrases like "you big dummy" toward. He didn't want to make them uncomfortable so he didn't tell them how hurtful it was, how all his life he'd fought a belief by many that to be that large, he must be dumb. It even went back to grade school where he wasn't as smart as others his size. He wasn't because he was years younger than them. I was stereotyped by my father. That hurt but I survived and overcame it.

Our language is powerful and a tool for good or bad. We can use it to influence. We can use it to uplift others or to put them down. However, they aren't just words and thinking words can never hurt us is foolish and short sighted. They do hurt and the words we accept reflect far more. The language we use is a far deeper reflection on our society and values.

Now, none of this has anything to do with the museum. The vandalism was wrong. Changing the word was a decision reached by the museum and it's easy to argue either way. However, to use their decision as a crusade against all political correctness and elimination of offensive language is ludicrous. Language evolves as society should but often seems not to progress.

I personally don't like the term PC because it's an abbreviation for Politically Correct. There should be nothing political about polite language. It should be Respectfully Considerate or something of that nature. It's not politics. It's human kindness and decency. I'd be all for letting PC go back to just representing Personal Computer. However, I'm all for not using offensive terms in referring to groups of people.
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