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Old 03-20-2016, 03:06 PM   #21
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How many feet of water does she lie in Ted?
The sand around the wreck varies a bit, 240' is a good average. When I was diving it, the shallowest point was around 180'. The area where we were getting the 1st class china was around 220' deep and maybe 75' inside.

Ted
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Old 03-20-2016, 03:18 PM   #22
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Interesting, thanks for the lesson.
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Old 03-20-2016, 03:21 PM   #23
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The sand around the wreck varies a bit, 240' is a good average. When I was diving it, the shallowest point was around 180'. The area where we were getting the 1st class china was around 220' deep and maybe 75' inside.

Ted
I was thinking that you were aboard before she went down... I was wondering how old you were...

That must have been an awesome dive! I'd love to see her. What kind of shape is she in?
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Old 03-20-2016, 03:58 PM   #24
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I was thinking that you were aboard before she went down... I was wondering how old you were...


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That must have been an awesome dive! I'd love to see her. What kind of shape is she in?
Think I dove her 16 times over 4 or 5 years.

She has been falling apart. I believe the unsupported bow finally broke off.

Imagine the weight of the bow unsupported for half a century. Hull wasn't designed for that kind of sustained loading.
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A better representation of the collapse of all the above deck level structures.
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Ted
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Old 03-20-2016, 04:18 PM   #25
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Juno is the oldest passanger ship in the World still working; on the Gota canal in Sweden,
Launched 1874.

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Old 03-20-2016, 07:10 PM   #26
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Some Australian (with help from Dubai) is making a replica of the Titanic. Hopefully it will at least get through its maiden voyage.
That would be Queensland businessman/politician Clive Palmer, associated with Queensland Nickel which recently ceased production. I would very much like to see photos of the ship under construction, it`s only 2 years to the maiden voyage. I`ll believe it when I see them, or the ship.
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Old 03-20-2016, 08:20 PM   #27
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A fellow I know makes his living painting portraits of beautiful ships.
He's an interesting guy and a very good artist. He dresses like its the late 1800's.
He has built a couple of interesting small boats as well.
Here is a link to his website.
Paintings of Ships
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Old 03-20-2016, 09:33 PM   #28
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The Empress of Canada - We emigrated to Canada from Scotland on this ship.

Maid of the Loch - My Grandmother took me every summer with her lawn bowling club on an excursion on Loch Lomond on this ship.

The Canberra - My Dad helped design the screws for this one.

They don't load in the order I attached. First left - Maid of the Loch, Right - Canberra, Lower left - Empress of Canada
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Old 03-20-2016, 09:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
She has been falling apart. I believe the unsupported bow finally broke off.

Imagine the weight of the bow unsupported for half a century. Hull wasn't designed for that kind of sustained loading.
Attachment 49950

A better representation of the collapse of all the above deck level structures.
Attachment 49951

Ted
What a shame. She was such a pretty lady. Only a few years old when she went down, too.

Quote:
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A fellow I know makes his living painting portraits of beautiful ships.
He's an interesting guy and a very good artist. He dresses like its the late 1800's.
He has built a couple of interesting small boats as well.
Here is a link to his website.
Paintings of Ships
I've seen some of these portraits before. I love this sort of thing.
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Old 03-20-2016, 10:30 PM   #30
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Canberra was a regular P&O line visitor to Australia.
These days P&O seems to consist of 3 budget class cruiseships,plus 2 ex Holland America ships still partly in HA livery.
Harmony OTS is not pretty, ship design has clearly given way to making $.
Cruise ships are what you make them,and they can get you to interesting places you might have trouble accessing otherwise. The buffet can be a danger area.
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Old 03-21-2016, 12:45 AM   #31
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I wonder what Robert Beebe would say about her A/B ratio and perhaps a backup sail plan???
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Old 03-21-2016, 06:41 AM   #32
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"The aesthetic end result to maximizing profit at all cost."

Sounds like a rational choice for folks investing big bucks , for hope of a return..

Does Las Vegas or Atlantic City look any better?

Remember most folks ON a cruise ship are not boaters , have zero sense of what might be considered pretty by boaters and don't give a dam.
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Old 03-21-2016, 08:44 AM   #33
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Bess and I have taken two cruises... One on the Norway (formerly the SS France) and on one of Royal Caribbean's big dogs on the early 2000's. I just wanted to see the big boat. Never again. It was a horrible experience. I mean, we weren't miserable. We spent time doing stuff and met with friends when we stopped in Jamaica, but to constant waiting in lines, listing to screaming kids, and generally seeing the ugly side of Americans was enough for us to swear off them forever.

OP... Ugly? Yea, pretty much, but the stranglehold the cruise lines have on the little islands they visit (at least in the Caribbean) is what troubles me the most.
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Old 03-21-2016, 09:47 AM   #34
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Always amazed at these huge ships operations, all the staff/entertainment/food/etc/etc/etc. Also amazed it makes money given what they charge. Only been on two cruises and it was fairly cheap considering.
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:27 AM   #35
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OP... Ugly? Yea, pretty much, but the stranglehold the cruise lines have on the little islands they visit (at least in the Caribbean) is what troubles me the most.
They own many of the islands. Why wouldn't they have a stranglehold on an island they own?
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:37 AM   #36
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Always amazed at these huge ships operations, all the staff/entertainment/food/etc/etc/etc. Also amazed it makes money given what they charge. Only been on two cruises and it was fairly cheap considering.
Their money making formula is really pretty straightforward. On the revenue side, they charge what the market will bear with wide variations by location on the ship, type room, and time booked and then filling capacity if they must with discounts but at prices more than covering the variable costs of the extra passenger.

Then on the cost side, they flag in countries that allow them to pay for less than US or European wages and have minimal requirements for compliance in many areas of operation. They build the boats in the most economical yards in the world. And they pay virtually no income taxes on their earnings.

Add to that practices such as proceed with the trip if at all possible so you don't have to refund money for a cancelled cruise. Then if problems arise, do not compensate with refunds, but always with discounts for future cruises, which basically costs you nothing. Also, if problems arise at sea, then find the most economical way to resolve them, even if that means keeping passengers on a boat filled with sewage or one where 90% of the passengers have norovirus.

Last, through mergers and acquisitions, minimize the competition.
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Old 03-22-2016, 08:28 AM   #37
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Greetings,
Mr. BB. An observation from a learned remote source...
B&B wrote: "They build the boats in the most economical yards in the world."

Most economical does not mean the cheapest as his post implies. All but a very few of those boats are made in European yards that pay higher wages than American yards and far higher than Asian yards. The social benefits and labor conditions of the European yards far exceed those of American yards. The yards that build virtually all cruise ships are not 3rd world latrines.

The cruise ship owners pay for an extremely high tech and high quality product that makes the higher costs part of an economy of operation that no cheap labor yard could ever provide.

There is a good reason why the best engines, the best marine hardware, and the most innovative marine technology comes from Europe, in both design and manufacture. It is not because it comes from 3rd world sweatshops and cheap labor. (editorial comment tactfully removed...)

Blue growth: keeping Europe's shipyards afloat - Ship Technology

shipyards and builders
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Old 03-22-2016, 09:07 AM   #38
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Greetings,
Mr. BB. An observation from a learned remote source...
B&B wrote: "They build the boats in the most economical yards in the world."

Most economical does not mean the cheapest as his post implies. All but a very few of those boats are made in European yards that pay higher wages than American yards and far higher than Asian yards. The social benefits and labor conditions of the European yards far exceed those of American yards. The yards that build virtually all cruise ships are not 3rd world latrines.

The cruise ship owners pay for an extremely high tech and high quality product that makes the higher costs part of an economy of operation that no cheap labor yard could ever provide.

There is a good reason why the best engines, the best marine hardware, and the most innovative marine technology comes from Europe, in both design and manufacture. It is not because it comes from 3rd world sweatshops and cheap labor. (editorial comment tactfully removed...)
As you so astutely noted, I said "most economical", not "cheapest." At no point did I say anything about third world or Asian. So you appear to be arguing with something you stated up front that I didn't say. I guess I'm confused with how third world or Asian ever became introduced into this discussion.

Now, since you introduced third world and Asia, I might mention a very small percentage of classed boats, are built in Asia. They are for the most part built in Europe and the US.

As to my post implying cheapest, perhaps you inferred lowest labor rates or third world. These yards are cheapest for them in the long run. They are highly efficient yards that can handle the size and scale and build such huge passenger ships economically while meeting all the required specifications and class requirements. They are considerably more efficient in building such boats that say the largest yacht builders in the same areas of the world. They are well equipped to handle the volume, not just in number of ships, but the volume of a single ship. As a simple example, there is a huge difference in building a megayacht with 20 staterooms and building a cruise ship with thousands of cabins. Automation and technology plays a far greater role in building cruise ships. There is a lot of prefabrication, none of which you would see in a major yacht builder.

Perhaps "efficient" would have been a better choice of words, but I think less accurate as Feadship or Oceanco or Lurssen are very efficient, just very much each build unique and the economies available to a cruise ship builder not available to them.
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Old 03-22-2016, 09:28 AM   #39
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Greetings,
Mr. BB. I suspect a misinterpretation. Apologies.
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Old 03-22-2016, 10:11 AM   #40
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Greetings,
Mr. BB. I suspect a misinterpretation. Apologies.
No problem at all. In fact, supports one of my premises regarding boat building and that is that we can build and deliver a boat as inexpensively in the US as importing from Asia. All the largest builders of large boats are in Europe with costs of labor exceeding US costs or in the US. For smaller boats such as runabouts and small cruisers the volume builders are in the US.

Just take Nordhavn. You could build an efficient modern facility and you could build and have an equivalent boat available in the US for no more, and perhaps less, than it costs to build and ship one to the US. Now, you'd have to make a very large investment and you'd be decades behind in marketing and building the name so you'd probably still fail. It just wouldn't be because of where you were building.

There is no more efficient small boat factory in the world than Sea Ray and no more efficient yacht builder in the world than Westport.

I think one of the best reflections of these economics is the effort of Ocean Alexander to build in the US.
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