Japan: A cruel and Dishonorable nation...?

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At the time, probably so, but as with all conflicts and all nations, it was another time and place and it's behind us.


We (the U.S.) are not without our own warts if you will, at various times in our history, be they war or civil liberties. We simply justify our acts in the name of "God", "democracy", "freedom" and "liberation."


We claim certain acts done in war, are "necessary to save the lives of countless others." How many times have we heard that same "ends justifies the means" statement?


I don't agree with the way Japan or the Nazi's treated allied troops, any more than I agree with some of the things we've done over the decades at war, but we can't continue to dwell on it. Why continue to beat the proverbial dead horse? We/they can't change what happened, and you can't "undo" atrocities. There's no reason to keep apologizing over and over again. All that can come of that is continued hatred, anger and resentment. We have enough of all three as it is.


Instead, God help us, maybe we can all learn (not that we ever do!), and maybe, just maybe, we can eventually figure out a way to co-exist. We don't necessarily have to agree, but at least stop killing each other over ideological, theological and philosophical beliefs!


Japan seems to be dealing with on a different level, the same "reparations" BS that the U.S. is dealing with now over civil rights violations committed during the slavery era. Why continue to apologize to someone that has no dog in the hunt, for something you had no control over?


As for the Samurai statement, I'm not really sure what you mean?
There was definitely a "code of honor" among the Samurai, there's no denying that.
Maybe a little more clarification?


BTW- Check out the fighter pilots video in the link you posted. A mouthful of wisdom from someone who was there.

OD
 
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Obviously, I wasn't there, but ... from everything I've read the Japanese were every bit as bad, if not worse, than the Nazis. This isn't generally understood in America, I think because of ethnic and pop cultural issues. For the same reasons we don't appreciate what went on at the Eastern Front of the European theater. That was warfare and racial genocide on a scale far beyond what occurred in Western Europe. We're not Asians, we don't relate to them. Our war movies and the knowledge of the general population are about D-Day and the march through Europe to Berlin. In the Pacific war, most people know Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima and nothing in between. Most have no clue about the rest of the war in Asia that started in the 30's.

We're basically Western Europeans in this country and that's the war with which we most closely associate.

I find these subjects fascinating and terrifying because I believe that human nature has not changed one bit since Adam & Eve. And that we are just one truly catastrophic event away from returning to barbarity.
 
Off Duty said:
At the time, probably so, but as with all conflicts and all nations, it was another time and place and it's behind us.


We (the U.S.) are not without our own warts if you will, at various times in our history, be they war or civil liberties. We simply justify our acts in the name of "God", "democracy", "freedom" and "liberation."


We claim certain acts done in war, are "necessary to save the lives of countless others." How many times have we heard that same "ends justifies the means" statement?


I don't agree with the way Japan or the Nazi's treated allied troops, any more than I agree with some of the things we've done over the decades at war, but we can't continue to dwell on it. Why continue to beat the proverbial dead horse? We/they can't change what happened, and you can't "undo" atrocities. There's no reason to keep apologizing over and over again. All that can come of that is continued hatred, anger and resentment. We have enough of all three as it is.


Instead, God help us, maybe we can all learn (not that we ever do!), and maybe, just maybe, we can eventually figure out a way to co-exist. We don't necessarily have to agree, but at least stop killing each other over ideological, theological and philosophical beliefs!


Japan seems to be dealing with on a different level, the same "reparations" BS that the U.S. is dealing with now over civil rights violations committed during the slavery era. Why continue to apologize to someone that has no dog in the hunt, for something you had no control over?


As for the Samurai statement, I'm not really sure what you mean?
There was definitely a "code of honor" among the Samurai, there's no denying that.
Maybe a little more clarification?


BTW- Check out the fighter pilots video in the link you posted. A mouthful of wisdom from someone who was there.

OD
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The way of the warrior, the honour of the samurai was meant to be paramount .
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuri#Philosophy

In an account of Japan sent to Father Ignatius Loyola at Rome, drawn from the statements of Anger (Han-Siro's western name), Xavier describes the importance of honor to the Japanese (Letter preserved at College of Coimbra.):

In the first place, the nation with which we have had to do here surpasses in goodness any of the nations lately discovered. I really think that among barbarous nations there can be none that has more natural goodness than the Japanese. They are of a kindly disposition, not at all given to cheating, wonderfully desirous of honour and rank. Honour with them is placed above everything else. There are a great many poor among them, but poverty is not a disgrace to any one. There is one thing among them of which I hardly know whether it is practised anywhere among Christians. The nobles, however poor they may be, receive the same honour from the rest as if they were rich.[8]

Doctrine
Samurai warriors described themselves as followers of "The Way of the Warrior" or Bushido. Bushidō is defined by the Japanese dictionary Shogakukan Kokugo Daijiten as "a unique philosophy (ronri) that spread through the warrior class from the Muromachi (chusei) period. From the earliest times, the Samurai felt that the path of the warrior was one of honor, emphasizing duty to one's master, and loyalty unto death".[9]

Hum ho, the reality was a bit different. Maybe more like the Nazi SS?
 
BaltimoreLurker said:
Obviously, I wasn't there, but ... from everything I've read the Japanese were every bit as bad, if not worse, than the Nazis. This isn't generally understood in America, I think because of ethnic and pop cultural issues. For the same reasons we don't appreciate what went on at the Eastern Front of the European theater. That was warfare and racial genocide on a scale far beyond what occurred in Western Europe. We're not Asians, we don't relate to them. Our war movies and the knowledge of the general population are about D-Day and the march through Europe to Berlin. In the Pacific war, most people know Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima and nothing in between. Most have no clue about the rest of the war in Asia that started in the 30's.

We're basically Western Europeans in this country and that's the war with which we most closely associate.

I find these subjects fascinating and terrifying because I believe that human nature has not changed one bit since Adam & Eve. And that we are just one truly catastrophic event away from returning to barbarity.
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Yes I think you're right, the japs seemed to massacred hundreds of thousands of Chinese and Vietnamese in indo- china during the war.

But my contention is that civilized nations do not murder combatants: the good treasrment of POWs is the central tenant of the Geneva convention.
 
It has never ceased to amaze me about the barbarianism humans are capable of, specially, in the stresses of war.
 
BaltimoreLurker said:
I find these subjects fascinating and terrifying because I believe that human nature has not changed one bit since Adam & Eve. And that we are just one truly catastrophic event away from returning to barbarity.
Click to expand...


Not disagreeing with but to expand a bit I don't believe a catastrophic event is even necessary. Iraq naturally progressed into barbarism with the vacuum of any real leadership.

Serial killers neighbors are fascinating people to read interviews of. Funny how every single one of them always say "we knew all along he had to be a murderer..." Oh wait, no they don't. Every interview reinforces the idea that mass murderers seem like normal everyday people. In total shock and disbelief they always say "he seemed like such a normal guy, we trusted him to watch our kids".

Mob mentality thinkers and feudal living fools is who we really are.
 
Australia may have friendly relations with Japan these days, but has never forgotten that on May 14, 1943 at 0415, the Australian Hospital Ship Centaur, painted white with red crosses and lit, was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine, with the loss of 268 of 332 onboard. The submarine commander was later convicted of a war crime atrocity for firing on survivors in lifeboats from another torpedo victim.
Very bad things also happened to captured Nun Nurses on Sandakan. And there was the forced building of the Burma Railway, in which POWs suffered dreadfully, from which came stories of the MD. Capt. "Weary" Dunlop, who tirelessly tended the sick and dying.(The "Weary" nickname is an Aussie play on words, combining "Dunlop", a tyre brand, and "Weary", exhausted or "tired" by his efforts. He resumed medical practice in Sydney post war, for many years.
Somehow, relationships need to be forged and maintained between countries despite atrocities like these, but they are not forgotten. Compartmentalized perhaps,but not forgotten.
 
Seems like the apology only stirs the pot. With most anybody who had anything to do with the war being dead and forgotten, what's the point of stirring up false emotions.

Ted
 
It should be noted that Japan did not sign on to the 1929 Geneva Convention, I would imagine that they did not feel the "rules of war" applied to them. Gen. Sherman's actions in regards to non-combatants pre- dates the Geneva Convention accords of 1929. Every war has atrocities.
 
BruceK said:
Australia may have friendly relations with Japan these days, but has never forgotten that on May 14, 1943 at 0415, the Australian Hospital Ship Centaur, painted white with red crosses and lit, was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine, with the loss of 268 of 332 onboard. The submarine commander was later convicted of a war crime atrocity for firing on survivors in lifeboats from another torpedo victim.
Very bad things also happened to captured Nun Nurses on Sandakan. And there was the forced building of the Burma Railway, in which POWs suffered dreadfully, from which came stories of the MD. Capt. "Weary" Dunlop, who tirelessly tended the sick and dying.(The "Weary" nickname is an Aussie play on words, combining "Dunlop", a tyre brand, and "Weary", exhausted or "tired" by his efforts. He resumed medical practice in Sydney post war, for many years.
Somehow, relationships need to be forged and maintained between countries despite atrocities like these, but they are not forgotten. Compartmentalized perhaps,but not forgotten.
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I agree with your sentiments.

Even the Nazis treated allied POWs well, they were fed and looked after. What puzzles me is how the Japanese officer class did not seem to recognise allied officers as their equal adversiaries . their honour system and their code of bravery only applied to the Japanese apparently.

I saw a documentary of a jap mini-sub mission to sink shipping in Sydney harbour. Two of the sub's got snagged on the harbour nets; so the jap crews committed suicide!

What is the Japanese moral compass...?????
 
Rustybarge said:
I agree with your sentiments.

Even the Nazis treated allied POWs well, they were fed and looked after. What puzzles me is how the Japanese officer class did not seem to recognise allied officers as their equal adversiaries . their honour system and their code of bravery only applied to the Japanese apparently.

I saw a documentary of a jap mini-sub mission to sink shipping in Sydney harbour. Two of the sub's got snagged on the harbour nets; so the jap crews committed suicide!

What is the Japanese moral compass...?????
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My understanding is that the Japanese considered surrender or capture dishonorable. Against the Bushido Code. So, if you were a prisoner you were considered shamed and had no rights. That's the same reason why they would fight to the death or commit suicide rather than be captured.

They are not of a Western culture and have different values than us.
 
BaltimoreLurker said:
My understanding is that the Japanese considered surrender or capture dishonorable. Against the Bushido Code. So, if you were a prisoner you were considered shamed and had no rights. That's the same reason why they would fight to the death or commit suicide rather than be captured.

They are not of a Western culture and have different values than us.
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I suppose when you consider that the Japanese people worshipped the Emperor as a living God : this is in 1945! As already mentioned there was no remorse expressed over their war crimes, only regret at losing the war as Prime minister Abe said last week.

In fact there was a remembrance ceremony at the Shinto temple where convicted war criminals were prominently on display, as the Chinese embassy pointed out.

In Germany it is illegal to display Nazi memorabilia or openly promote its policies, why then do the Japanese show no remorse and openly condone the honouring of those war criminals?
 
Last night watched the movie "Little Boy" time to leave this behind us.

My childhood was ruined by the experiences of my parents (dutch) during the Second World War in Indonesia.

Plot
The story centers on a 7-year-old boy, Pepper Flynt Busbee (Jakob Salvati), who is devastated when his father enlists in the army during World War II. The title is a reference to Little Boy, the code name for the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima as well as a reference to Pepper's height. Pepper has an extremely close relationship with his loving father. It begins from the very moment he is born when his father cradles him in his arms and mentions how small he is. When Pepper is examined by a doctor the physician is asked if the child is a midget. However, the doctor says that the term is offensive and suggests that he is just a "little boy." However, when World War II begins, Pepper's older brother is declared ineligible for military service because of flat feet and his father joins in his place. [3] Not long after his father leaves for war, Pepper hears the Bible verse, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move" (Mt. 17:20), he becomes determined to get enough faith to bring his father home. Nevertheless, as his friend and mentor Father Oliver tells him, faith is useless to anyone who harbors hatred. The film highlights the tremendous hatred against Japanese-Americans that was rampant in America at this time. Father Oliver tells Pepper to befriend a Japanese man named Hashimoto. At first, the racism Pepper has internalized from society makes him hesitant to follow this advice, but as he gets to know Hashimoto, he begins to value their friendship and learns from Hashimoto to stand up to those who bully him about his height. The plot then takes a turn when Pepper's father is reported missing in action. Pepper's mother (Emily Watson) struggles to keep her family together in the face of these overwhelming hardships.
 
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Rusty,
I don't know if you can make a distinction of which atrocity is worse. Fact is that Japan, Germany, Russia and others committed untold amounts of brutal acts. Why there is a need for the Japanese to still apologize I do not understand. No other nation has to do it that I know of.
 
No Mast said:
Rusty,
I don't know if you can make a distinction of which atrocity is worse. Fact is that Japan, Germany, Russia and others committed untold amounts of brutal acts. Why there is a need for the Japanese to still apologize I do not understand. No other nation has to do it that I know of.
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I am trying to understand the contradictions in Japanese culture; on the one hand they advocate honour, bravery and unselfish service to their nation, and in the field of war they starved and worked to death ( murdered) POWs on a huge scale.

How did they reconcile these two disparate moral views?

A feudal system of the highest moral behavior in Japan, and a criminal genocidal policy that killed defenseless captured soldiers.
 
Rustybarge said:
I am trying to understand the contradictions in Japanese culture; on the one hand they advocate honour, bravery and unselfish service to their nation, and in the field of war they starved and worked to death ( murdered) POWs on a huge scale.

How did they reconcile these two disparate moral views?

A feudal system of the highest moral behavior in Japan, and a criminal genocidal policy that killed defenseless captured soldiers.
Click to expand...

It's a mistake to judge the actions of the past with todays standards. The Japanese didn't view us as their equal in WWII; they didn't sign the Geneva convention; their actions were perfectly logical to them. The USA viewed black people as property and native Americans as animals. We did some pretty horrible things to both of those groups. The difference is we won, so we wrote the history books for the most part.

Ted
 
Unfortunately, as many have noted, such atrocities during war are all too common and have been probably since the beginning of time. As one whose father served in the Pacific, and who has known at least three survivors of the Bataan Death March, I a naturally appalled. Ask any Korean or Chinese of our age (and many younger) of their opinion of the Japanese and be ready for an earful. The Rape of Nanking is but one example. Kidnapped Korean women serving as "comfort women" for Japanese officers yet another. Yet, also as a Jew, it is hard for me to get past a nation, and an ideology, calling for the extermination of an entire people. Even today we see it with the Sunni/Shia split in the Middle East. Each would happily exterminate the other and many seem hell bent of doing it. The saddest part (and the most perplexing) to me, and it always has been since I first learned of the Holocaust, is how otherwise "normal" people, once the hatred moves from a personal to a national level, become willing participants in such atrocities. It does not say much for us when people, pretty much en masse do not stand up and say "This is wrong, it must stop."
 
THD said:
The saddest part (and the most perplexing) to me, and it always has been since I first learned of the Holocaust, is how otherwise "normal" people, once the hatred moves from a personal to a national level, become willing participants in such atrocities. It does not say much for us when people, pretty much en masse do not stand up and say "This is wrong, it must stop."
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Fear and self preservation can be strong motivators. Most regimes that perpetrate these atrocities have no tolerance for those that dissent from the atrocities.

Ted
 
Sad but true, Ted. And the atrocities themselves just stoke the fear and sense of self preservation.
 
Every generation has its challenges. What bothers me today is that it is not so much "nation states" any longer as it is ideology. Where is the worldwide outrage over ISIS. Few are saying "this is wrong, it must stop."
 
Rustybarge said:
I saw a documentary of a jap mini-sub mission to sink shipping in Sydney harbour. Two of the sub's got snagged on the harbour nets; so the jap crews committed suicide!
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One sank a ferry housing Navy sailors but no real ships were lost. There was some shelling of land targets.
One mini sub escaped the Harbor. It was located around 10 years ago, about 10 miles north of Sydney, off Long Reef beach. The site is marked on charts as an historic wreck, there is a keep off area. It is understood the deceased Japanese crew remain inside, and despite everything,we honor it as a War Grave. From memory, Japanese Govt. representatives have made an official visit to the site, assisted by our Navy.
 
I read the headline the other day that the Japanese 'emperor' apologized again for WW2. I thought to myself someone from our government should say," Your forgiven, its in the past, lets move on. (no more apologies necessary)." While Japanese culture is not like our culture, they are certainly considered a peaceful country at this point in time.
 
bligh said:
I read the headline the other day that the Japanese 'emperor' apologized again for WW2. I thought to myself someone from our government should say," Your forgiven, its in the past, lets move on. (no more apologies necessary)." While Japanese culture is not like our culture, they are certainly considered a peaceful country at this point in time.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the exact same thing. The Japanese are a lovely people and although we should never forget history it time we all moved on from so many thing long past.
 
bligh said:
I thought to myself someone from our government should say," Your forgiven, its in the past, lets move on. (no more apologies necessary)." While Japanese culture is not like our culture, they are certainly considered a peaceful country at this point in time.
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I don't think it is the USA that is the problem. It's the Asian countries, specially Korea and China. A little birdie keep telling me somehow money is involved here as survivors or their families wanting payment from the Government of Japan. Apologies are just words. Money in Asia buys forgiveness.
 
Read Flyboys. It's the story of what happened to captured American airmen on the island of Chi Chi Jima. This is where George Bush was shot down. Fortunately he was picked up by a syb. The book gives a lot of insight into the Japanese mentality of the time.
 
I have worked in some 36 different countries to date, including Japan. The first thing I learned is that judging the customs, beliefs and actions of another culture, either today or in their history, using the customs, beliefs and actions of my own culture is an ignorant and futile thing to do because I will always be wrong.

The Japanese did what they did before and during WWII because for them at the time at that point in their history it was the right thing to do. Their treatment of prisoners was terrible by our cultural standards but was correct by theirs.

The good news (for everybody) is that humans evolve. Today the same Mitsubishi Heavy Industries plant that produced the A6M Type Zero for the Japanese Navy produces a good portion of our 787 and major components of all current Boeing models except the 737 are manufactured in Japan and have been for decades.
 
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Rustybarge said:
The way of the warrior, the honour of the samurai was meant to be paramount ...Hum ho, the reality was a bit different. Maybe more like the Nazi SS?
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Apples and watermelons.


I see little similarity in the early century Samurai and the Japanese thugs that committed atrocities against civilians and combatants alike.

OD
 
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