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Old 08-17-2015, 06:02 PM   #21
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The saddest part (and the most perplexing) to me, and it always has been since I first learned of the Holocaust, is how otherwise "normal" people, once the hatred moves from a personal to a national level, become willing participants in such atrocities. It does not say much for us when people, pretty much en masse do not stand up and say "This is wrong, it must stop."
Fear and self preservation can be strong motivators. Most regimes that perpetrate these atrocities have no tolerance for those that dissent from the atrocities.

Ted
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Old 08-17-2015, 06:29 PM   #22
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Sad but true, Ted. And the atrocities themselves just stoke the fear and sense of self preservation.
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Old 08-17-2015, 07:48 PM   #23
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Every generation has its challenges. What bothers me today is that it is not so much "nation states" any longer as it is ideology. Where is the worldwide outrage over ISIS. Few are saying "this is wrong, it must stop."
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:11 PM   #24
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I saw a documentary of a jap mini-sub mission to sink shipping in Sydney harbour. Two of the sub's got snagged on the harbour nets; so the jap crews committed suicide!
One sank a ferry housing Navy sailors but no real ships were lost. There was some shelling of land targets.
One mini sub escaped the Harbor. It was located around 10 years ago, about 10 miles north of Sydney, off Long Reef beach. The site is marked on charts as an historic wreck, there is a keep off area. It is understood the deceased Japanese crew remain inside, and despite everything,we honor it as a War Grave. From memory, Japanese Govt. representatives have made an official visit to the site, assisted by our Navy.
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Old 08-17-2015, 11:13 PM   #25
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I read the headline the other day that the Japanese 'emperor' apologized again for WW2. I thought to myself someone from our government should say," Your forgiven, its in the past, lets move on. (no more apologies necessary)." While Japanese culture is not like our culture, they are certainly considered a peaceful country at this point in time.
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Old 08-18-2015, 02:42 AM   #26
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I read the headline the other day that the Japanese 'emperor' apologized again for WW2. I thought to myself someone from our government should say," Your forgiven, its in the past, lets move on. (no more apologies necessary)." While Japanese culture is not like our culture, they are certainly considered a peaceful country at this point in time.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the exact same thing. The Japanese are a lovely people and although we should never forget history it time we all moved on from so many thing long past.
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Old 08-18-2015, 07:37 AM   #27
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I thought to myself someone from our government should say," Your forgiven, its in the past, lets move on. (no more apologies necessary)." While Japanese culture is not like our culture, they are certainly considered a peaceful country at this point in time.
I don't think it is the USA that is the problem. It's the Asian countries, specially Korea and China. A little birdie keep telling me somehow money is involved here as survivors or their families wanting payment from the Government of Japan. Apologies are just words. Money in Asia buys forgiveness.
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Old 08-18-2015, 08:51 AM   #28
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Read Flyboys. It's the story of what happened to captured American airmen on the island of Chi Chi Jima. This is where George Bush was shot down. Fortunately he was picked up by a syb. The book gives a lot of insight into the Japanese mentality of the time.
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Old 08-18-2015, 12:08 PM   #29
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I have worked in some 36 different countries to date, including Japan. The first thing I learned is that judging the customs, beliefs and actions of another culture, either today or in their history, using the customs, beliefs and actions of my own culture is an ignorant and futile thing to do because I will always be wrong.

The Japanese did what they did before and during WWII because for them at the time at that point in their history it was the right thing to do. Their treatment of prisoners was terrible by our cultural standards but was correct by theirs.

The good news (for everybody) is that humans evolve. Today the same Mitsubishi Heavy Industries plant that produced the A6M Type Zero for the Japanese Navy produces a good portion of our 787 and major components of all current Boeing models except the 737 are manufactured in Japan and have been for decades.
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Old 08-18-2015, 04:06 PM   #30
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The way of the warrior, the honour of the samurai was meant to be paramount ...Hum ho, the reality was a bit different. Maybe more like the Nazi SS?
Apples and watermelons.


I see little similarity in the early century Samurai and the Japanese thugs that committed atrocities against civilians and combatants alike.

OD
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Old 08-18-2015, 04:48 PM   #31
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...what's the point of stirring up false emotions. Ted
Exactly!

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...Every war has atrocities.
Absolutely!

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Originally Posted by Rustybarge View Post
I agree with your sentiments.
Even the Nazis treated allied POWs well, they were fed and looked after. What puzzles me is how the Japanese officer class did not seem to recognise allied officers as their equal adversiaries . their honour system and their code of bravery only applied to the Japanese apparently.
This is probably best answered in the second part of your comment (below):

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...I saw a documentary of a jap mini-sub mission to sink shipping in Sydney harbour. Two of the sub's got snagged on the harbour nets; so the jap crews committed suicide!
It's difficult at best, for most Westerner's to comprehend the Japanese code of honor. For example, when was the last time you heard of an American commander taking his own life as a result of a botched operation? Especially one that cost the lives of his men.
(Hint-You won't. It's not in our culture.)

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...Japanese considered surrender or capture dishonorable. Against the Bushido Code. So, if you were a prisoner you were considered shamed and had no rights. That's the same reason why they would fight to the death or commit suicide rather than be captured. They are not of a Western culture and have different values than us.
You understand it correctly.

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I suppose when you consider that the Japanese people worshipped the Emperor as a living God : this is in 1945! As already mentioned there was no remorse expressed over their war crimes, only regret at losing the war as Prime minister Abe said last week....
Again it's culture. As for the statement, I can equate to Obama's "apology" for our actions as a nation. That's a "government statement" and not my feelings at all. That may be his position, but he doesn't speak for "me", and I don't recognize his "apology." I can't condemn an entire race and culture for the act(s) of their government.

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...In Germany it is illegal to display Nazi memorabilia or openly promote its policies, why then do the Japanese show no remorse and openly condone the honouring of those war criminals?
Different country, different culture.
Across the U.S. in the last many months, thousands of people have been up in arms over the confederate battle flag (actually, there was more than one, but that would actually take a little understanding). Instead of trying to understand it's place in our history and accepting it for what it is, a horrible time for some in our growth as a nation, we protest, riot, and bring law suits to remove it.
The Japanese OTOH, recognize their history and culture even when it hurts, and try to learn from it.

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I am trying to understand the contradictions in Japanese culture; on the one hand they advocate honour, bravery and unselfish service to their nation, and in the field of war they starved and worked to death ( murdered) POWs on a huge scale.
How did they reconcile these two disparate moral views?

A feudal system of the highest moral behavior in Japan, and a criminal genocidal policy that killed defenseless captured soldiers.
We probably don't want to go there.
After all, we're not without our own warts in our history.
If you dig long enough and deep enough, you'll find our thorns.

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It's a mistake to judge the actions of the past with todays standards. The Japanese didn't view us as their equal in WWII; they didn't sign the Geneva convention; their actions were perfectly logical to them. The USA viewed black people as property and native Americans as animals. We did some pretty horrible things to both of those groups. The difference is we won, so we wrote the history books for the most part.
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Well stated!

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Unfortunately, as many have noted, such atrocities during war are all too common and have been probably since the beginning of time. As one whose father served in the Pacific, and who has known at least three survivors of the Bataan Death March, I a naturally appalled. Ask any Korean or Chinese of our age (and many younger) of their opinion of the Japanese and be ready for an earful. The Rape of Nanking is but one example. Kidnapped Korean women serving as "comfort women" for Japanese officers yet another. Yet, also as a Jew, it is hard for me to get past a nation, and an ideology, calling for the extermination of an entire people. Even today we see it with the Sunni/Shia split in the Middle East. Each would happily exterminate the other and many seem hell bent of doing it. The saddest part (and the most perplexing) to me, and it always has been since I first learned of the Holocaust, is how otherwise "normal" people, once the hatred moves from a personal to a national level, become willing participants in such atrocities. It does not say much for us when people, pretty much en masse do not stand up and say "This is wrong, it must stop."
THD....Damn brother! That was an awesome response. Thanks!

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I have worked in some 36 different countries to date, including Japan. The first thing I learned is that judging the customs, beliefs and actions of another culture, either today or in their history, using the customs, beliefs and actions of my own culture is an ignorant and futile thing to do because I will always be wrong.

The Japanese did what they did before and during WWII because for them at the time at that point in their history it was the right thing to do. Their treatment of prisoners was terrible by our cultural standards but was correct by theirs.

The good news (for everybody) is that humans evolve. Today the same Mitsubishi Heavy Industries plant that produced the A6M Type Zero for the Japanese Navy produces a good portion of our 787 and major components of all current Boeing models except the 737 are manufactured in Japan and have been for decades.
Amen!!

And this is why I appreciate this forum.
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Old 08-18-2015, 08:11 PM   #32
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There are times I wish Bushido were a part of our political culture. Hari-Kari could solve a few problems on Capital Hill!
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Old 08-18-2015, 08:14 PM   #33
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Off-Duty-

There are times I wish Bushido were a part of our political culture. Hari-Kari could solve a few problems on Capital Hill!
Couldn't it though?
Then again, there would have to be a level of "honor".....that may prove problematic
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Old 08-19-2015, 05:35 AM   #34
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Thanks to the forum for all the different view points .

In my opinion:

I'm not Jewish, but my bil is. Should the Jewish nation try and forget the Holocaust, and forgive the Germans for what they did?

Rather Jews highlight the Holocaust: lest we should forget.

The German nation has expressed the deepest reget, and the denial of the Holocaust is a criminal offence in Germany. The German prime minister does not worship at a shrine of Hitler and the Nazis party every year!

But the Japanese pm does at a Shinto shine where pictures of convicted war criminals are proudly displayed.

IMO the Japanese are crying crocodile tears: showing regret at the loss of the war, not over the war crimes they committed....

....lest we should forget!
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Old 08-19-2015, 06:10 AM   #35
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Just out of curiosity, am I suppose to stop admiring George Washington the father of our nation, because he owned African Americans (slaves)? Am I supposed to assume all you Irish are terrorists because of what went on in Northern Ireland for a few decades ago? Time to let it go.

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Old 08-19-2015, 07:01 AM   #36
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Just out of curiosity, am I suppose to stop admiring George Washington the father of our nation, because he owned African Americans (slaves)? Am I supposed to assume all you Irish are terrorists because of what went on in Northern Ireland for a few decades ago? Time to let it go.

Ted
I of course respect your opinion.

But I think we need to learn from history, so that we don't repeat the mistakes.
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Old 08-19-2015, 09:10 AM   #37
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I of course respect your opinion.

But I think we need to learn from history, so that we don't repeat the mistakes.
OMG....now that's an awesome thought (I'm serious BTW).
We need to LEARN from history, so not to repeat mistakes made in the past.
We do NOT need to DWELL on the past atrocities and demand reparations and apologies.

Unfortunately, on some levels, we (the U.S.) are the worse offenders of that concept. We do the same thing over and over and hope for a differing result...

OD
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Old 08-19-2015, 09:28 AM   #38
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Edmond Burke and George Santayana both mentioned a couple of things about history and the past, didn't they?

A few generations ago...
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Old 08-19-2015, 10:09 AM   #39
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Unfortunately, on some levels, we (the U.S.) are the worse offenders of that concept. We do the same thing over and over and hope for a differing result...

OD
Now that Obama has lifted sanctions on Iran, billions of $ of overseas assets that were frozen will be now come available to the Iranian gov.

Their foreign minister was on the TV last night and stated that these funds will be used to fight US influence in the region. She stated that The US is still the enemy of Iran and that they'll being using every avenue available to them too permantly expel the US from the middle east region.

The reporter said' But its the US that has just released all of your funds'

She countered' the US is our sworn enemy'

That fellow you have up there in the White House is a genius...!
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Old 08-19-2015, 11:18 AM   #40
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Greetings,
Mr. Rb. Not commenting on the "genius" in the WH but I think Iran has the right idea to expect and hope for expulsion of the the US and ALL other foreign (read non middle eastern) powers from the area. The current situation is a DIRECT result of foreign meddling that has been going on in the area for the last few centuries. Let the whole bunch of them fight it out amongst themselves and THEN deal with the victors or whoever is left.
Regarding the Japanese, Mr. Marin said it best in the first paragraph of post #29. Asia is a wonderful place but VERY difficult if not impossible to understand from a western perspective. Dog on the menu in Korea, cows worshiped in India are but two of the things unfathomable to the western mind.
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