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Old 09-22-2017, 08:54 AM   #1
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Had foundation work done and they screwed up badly.

Company has a good rep.
They were supposed to jack up and level the first floor of the house we inherited to sell.
So yesterday, around noon, go over to see.
Talking to the 3 workers, they act like they dont have a clue, about for example the bathroom door frame, and the entry doors to the living room needing to be jacked straight.

Then I talk to the lead worker, and he knows a little more. I point out these 2 areas, and he says did Steve know about these issues? Steve is the one who wrote the work orders. Yes Steve and I and my wife talked with Steve about those things.

Then the lead tells me where he put the extra girders, and I am thinking why just 2 feet away from the main central girder??? Would you not space a girder equidistant from the center to the exterior wall???

I will crwal under the ouse Saturday and compare to the emailed plan we got from Steve about where these new girders and power posts were supposed to go.

As you walk in and look at the house, NOTHING has changed. All the doors are still off kilter and the floor still has a sag. We put a level on it before the lift, adn will need to check, but don't see anything has improved at all.

Company does not get paid money till they finish the work. If I find out they put these new girders in a wrong position according as shown in their own work order, I do have a case to make them do the work again, moving them don't !?

I think a child could have done a better job. It is horrible, IMO, what they left.

Looking t the work plan, rear girder for bathroom area, supposed to be 4 foot from exterior wall, girder under stairway and foyer 9 foot from front exterior wall, lead worker said they put girders 10 foot from exterior walls? I will get under there and measure.

After I looked at the results, I really got angry. We still have 5 interior doors that can not shut and latch is off by about 1/2 inch. I specifically wanted the bathroom door to shut and be lined up and the top of the door was shaved!

Plus they did not follow their repair plan.
I was told by Steve, 4 sagging joists would be SISTERED. And it shows on the plan, but when talking to the workers, he claimed they did no joist sistering.
The area is still sagging when I step there, I can tell.

Plus he said 10 foot back from exterior wall. No where in the plan are there any girders to be placed back 10 foot from exterior wall.

For this work the charge was supposedly $7500.
Clearly, they did not do what they said they would do.
What are my options?
How would you talk to these people?
I am going to have to call to complain they did not do the work as described. And the house is not repaired to a reasonable expectation.

Here was what they were supposed to do.

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Old 09-22-2017, 09:04 AM   #2
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I'm assuming that they pulled a permit from the municipality? If not they should have. Contact the building inspector, give them zero money unless it is inspected and approved even if Steve suddenly does something to improve the situation it will be minimal and not necessarily to code.
If you're selling the house this inspection is your only protection from future lawsuits by the purchaser.
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Old 09-22-2017, 09:08 AM   #3
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Yes, no codes people have been involved.
No money has been paid.
They want payment after job is done, but frankly they did not finish the work as they described they would. Plus this took 2 months to get them out to start as they are so busy. Do people really put up with crap like this?
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Old 09-22-2017, 09:46 AM   #4
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We lived in a 100year old house in Memphis about 15 years ago. I had a termite company tell me I had some rotten beams that needed to be replaced. I was traveling quite a bit at the time so I didn't have to time to check them out. I took their word for it and let them schedule the job. I made sure to be there on the day that they started the job.They showed up with a bunch of 6 foot house floor jacks and some treated 4x4's. There was not anywhere under the house that had more than 3 feet of crawl space. It was obvious they hadn't even been under the house. I ran them off and cancelled my termite contract. I took some time off and did the job myself .
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:11 AM   #5
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A perfect example of North American craftsmanship and another reason why there was such a rush to move stuff offshore, something that is still haunting us but got a lot of huge bonus' for many CEOs.

Is that really the best that we can do? What if Boeing or Apple, Microsoft or Bombardier were populated with people like this?
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:43 AM   #6
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Legal advice from the Internet is worth exactly what you pay for it. For $7500, I think you should talk to a lawyer. Most offer a free consultation to see if you have a case.
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:46 AM   #7
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A perfect example of North American craftsmanship and another reason why there was such a rush to move stuff offshore, something that is still haunting us but got a lot of huge bonus' for many CEOs.

Is that really the best that we can do? What if Boeing or Apple, Microsoft or Bombardier were populated with people like this?
That's a pretty insulting statement to most American workers who do the best they can with the resources available to them.

There could be any number of reasons why the OP did not get what he bargained for and many of these are out of the worker's control. I suspect "Steve" is the boss and the rest of the crew just did what he told them to.
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:09 AM   #8
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No permits AFAIK.
No code inspectors.
No Steve has appeared
No Steve coming by to check and see what his crew did.
No one coming by again today to jack some more, they said they were done yesterday when I asked.
I asked will you be finished with the house today, and they said YES.


This house is a modern built style house in 1964 with dimensional lumber, there is nothing odd about it.
House did not need 6 inches of lifting, it needed about 2 in the worst spot where the cracked joists are next to the bathroom door.
The house is going to sell poorly if buyers see the doors are all out of whack, they will think it needs the foundation repaired, and we will say but it was...repaired. It is crap job, IF LEFT like this.

NOW STEVE and 2 other foundation guys, one was Virginia Foundation Solutions, told us 2 joists back there were CRACKED, which is why they needed sistering.
BUT this lead crew guy for the company doing the work told me nothing was broken, no cracked joists. So he did not do any joist work.

Regardless, should be sistered, every company that saw the house, 3 of them, told us they needed sistering.

We picked this company as they were the cheapest, had decent reviews by customers. I wont name them yet, since I will try to work this out with them. There price $7500 and included laying down a vapor barrier on the dirt..which Steve said a Home inspector would ding us on when we go to sell it. I can imagine a home inspection looking at it now, after the workers left, would say we need the foundation repaired!

VFS wanted 10,000 to 15,000 depending on how much work they would do under there. With them He gave us 3 options to repair this.
The other company cant recall His name, said sisters and full girders all the way, about 10,000.

Wife and her brother, who are the executors, did not like that guy since he said he used mexican workers. Told us they work cheap and can dig holes fast, and he seemed to have few references.
Probably would have done better job to have full girders and sistered joists.

I told Steve when He first looked at the house, the other companies said needed full length girders and he said not needed. Just short girders added in the saggy areas. All the foundation companies said the joists were overextended, too long which is why they sag.
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:10 AM   #9
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Yes, no codes people have been involved.
No money has been paid.
They want payment after job is done, but frankly they did not finish the work as they described they would. Plus this took 2 months to get them out to start as they are so busy. Do people really put up with crap like this?
No codes people?

It sounds like some fly by night foundation people who aren't professional and have no idea what they're doing. I suspect they had the best price though as I'll tell you $7500 for the job you describe is well under market.

Now, in a court of law, you would be required to prove their work was inadequate and to do so requires an expert. So ultimately, you'll have to find a reputable foundation firm and get them to look and write up the deficiencies and the cost to correct.

Potentially you have a very difficult situation and should engage an attorney as whether they did the job right or not, the foundation company can certainly put a lien on the house. Your weapon is the money, withholding it. Theirs is the lien. I'd try to get them to fix their work, but that doesn't sound promising. At some point you may have to try to reach a settlement with them and move on to someone else.

Next thing you're going to hear is them telling you that the price they quoted didn't include everything necessary to correct all doors and that would cost much more.
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:27 AM   #10
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Interesting Wes, why do you excuse the workers yet blame "Steve?" And I said "North American" workers. I am only insulting those who screw us with fake expertise, incompetence or downright fraud. I'm surprised that in America with so many guns, people still get away with these scams!

Marketplace has an expose going on right now about large, established car dealers who upsell maintenance to those who don't know better. There are also a significant number of yahoos who have fake degrees, an estimate being HALF of PHDs awarded each year are fake! From councillors to teachers.

I am using UPS for a delivery, I paid for next-day delivery and its now been three days and the website says "held for delivery until next business day," which is now Monday. They have one business model and they do it badly. I have applied for a refund. We should refuse to pay them upfront, there is no incentive to do their job. My new galley stove arrived by Purolator and it was kicked to crap. Had to send it back.

All of the people who service our strata from gardeners to painters are good people and do excellent work - they are proud of their accomplishments and are conscientious.

The marine industry, which we are all familiar with, is full of bozos who claim expertise and can't produce. My last haul out included a bottom painting and the coating was so thin you could see through it, they did not move the blocking to paint under the keel until they had it in the slings. They wanted to launch with wet paint! It took my refusal to pay the bill to get them to do it over.

My criticism is deserving; those craftsmen and artisans who are proud of their work and do their best get talked up and become prosperous, like the guy that welds on my zincs. The rest, meh. Caveat emptor with bells on!
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:48 AM   #11
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Interesting Wes, why do you excuse the workers yet blame "Steve?" And I said "North American" workers. I am only insulting those who screw us with fake expertise, incompetence or downright fraud. I'm surprised that in America with so many guns, people still get away with these scams!

Marketplace has an expose going on right now about large, established car dealers who upsell maintenance to those who don't know better. There are also a significant number of yahoos who have fake degrees, an estimate being HALF of PHDs awarded each year are fake! From councillors to teachers.

I am using UPS for a delivery, I paid for next-day delivery and its now been three days and the website says "held for delivery until next business day," which is now Monday. They have one business model and they do it badly. I have applied for a refund. We should refuse to pay them upfront, there is no incentive to do their job. My new galley stove arrived by Purolator and it was kicked to crap. Had to send it back.

All of the people who service our strata from gardeners to painters are good people and do excellent work - they are proud of their accomplishments and are conscientious.

The marine industry, which we are all familiar with, is full of bozos who claim expertise and can't produce. My last haul out included a bottom painting and the coating was so thin you could see through it, they did not move the blocking to paint under the keel until they had it in the slings. They wanted to launch with wet paint! It took my refusal to pay the bill to get them to do it over.

My criticism is deserving; those craftsmen and artisans who are proud of their work and do their best get talked up and become prosperous, like the guy that welds on my zincs. The rest, meh. Caveat emptor with bells on!
Caveat emptor but no reason to attack a continent of workers. There are far more good than bad and your comments imply the opposite. Also, we each do merit responsibility for perpetuating the ability of the bad to get work by not checking enough and by taking the low price.

I've employed a lot of US workers in my prior job and employ a lot today, just over 3000 and I'm proud of them and the job they do. I also get excellent service from the boatyard we use. I get excellent service on cars, but had to do it on our two personal cars by buying them not from the local dealer.

I just hate to read a diatribe such as yours attacking the workforce on the whole. One, it's demeaning to many. Two, it's misrepresentative. I also don't know where you pull your PhD numbers but for my wife I resent that as she worked very hard to earn hers. If you're referring to the diploma mills, then those degrees get ignored widely by employers. In fact, not only would I not give them credence, I treated them as major negatives on resumes. Employers don't just look at the degrees but do look at where they were earned.

Now, specifically to foundation repair companies, it is an area of many lousy companies as it's very profitable and easy to get into. How do they prosper, because people fall for radio ads and/or price and don't do adequate homework before selecting one. That's like what we read about all the horrible boat mechanics. Well, I've never had a single one and I've owned boats since I was 13. However, I do my research and select carefully and I don't select the fly by night operator who quotes the low price and talks about experience but has no credentials.

There are plenty of good workers and good companies in North America. More good than bad, far more. When criticism is lodged in a blast like yours it diminishes them as you act like the workforce is primarily the opposite.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:01 PM   #12
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BandB, I guess the degree mills would not survive if Joe Public didn't think they were real..."degrees for life experience..."

I said, quite clearly, that "I am only insulting those who screw us with fake expertise, incompetence or downright fraud." Then I gave some clear examples. You might also read Weldingweb or The Marine Installer's Rant or PPrune for more examples of the bozos amongst us. Or search PO on this site.

Your reading comprehension is not very good. Perhaps your teachers had fake degrees? Nonetheless, I'm very pleased that you have never had an experience with incompetence, fake expertise or downright fraud. You are either very lucky or perhaps obtuse?

Here's the degree thing:
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/business...lace-1.4293547
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:13 PM   #13
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This thread brings to mind the old adage: cheap horses are tough to ride.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:41 PM   #14
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Your reading comprehension is not very good.
So your respond is personal insults. My reading comprehension is quite good. I just don't share the bitter, angry views of some. I'm more positive based on my experiences. If one continually finds themselves dealing with incompetence and fraud, then perhaps they need to address how they go about selecting persons to deal with. I know of the existence of unscrupulous companies and I deplore them. I just strongly dislike anything making it look like that's the majority.

As to the fake degrees, I'm well aware of diploma mills. They rip off thousands of people looking for short cuts. That's really the key to success of scammers to find such a target. In the US there is also another group of schools not as bad as the diploma mills but still running shady businesses. They gang together with accreditation from groups just made up of them and they target veterans heavily. Often they're business schools or technical schools of some sort. Bring your GI Bill and get an education for free. They get the degree and find out it's nearly worthless. Now there are some legitimate business and technical schools. For instance DeVry is well respected in the business world.

It took years for hiring personnel to accept schools that are largely online such as the University of Phoenix. They are still not considered equal to regular schools but they do require studying and learning and clearly carry value. I had an employee who went that route and was amazed that it wasn't cheaper nor did it require less work. Now most state universities have implemented online programs.

I know most employers, if they get schools on a resume or application they don't recognize, will look them up. However, in the business world, they make another mistake. The education world requires a transcript and certificate even if you've been teaching 30 years. However, in the business world, the only time you education generally gets checked is on your first job. So, there is a lot of people putting schools they never attended on resumes. Some human resource departments are now checking but many employers don't. The company I worked for once acquired a company where a VP was claiming he was President and on two different documents he had listed two schools, a total of four schools listed, and he'd never attended any of them.

I just stand by the quality of workers in general. I fully understand there are frauds in every field. But, in my opinion, they are the minority. I've never had a problem finding good workers in the US or in any other country in which I've done business.
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Old 09-22-2017, 02:46 PM   #15
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I think you and I need to have a drink together.

I think you started by telling me I was insulting the majority of American workers, which was not the case. I responded by pointing out that you either didn't see or didn't understand what I wrote. I thought that was a reasonable rebuttle, not an insult as your response showed you didn't get it.

I deplore ad hominem attacks. There is plenty to discuss about any disagreement, which is actually harder and more time-consuming than that seemingly favoured left-wing response of shutting down opinions that people don't agree with by insulting your (insert anything personal here). Besides, a good argument gets the blood going; if I care about something I will try and persuade you to see my opinion and hopefully get you to agree with it.
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Old 09-22-2017, 02:47 PM   #16
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Xsbank, You seem to have some sort of problem with everyone. This is not a good sign. I suggest that you relax, smell the roses and realize that most of the workers in the USA are pretty good at their jobs.

I suspect "Steve" in this case is the boss and told the other workers where to dig and how deep. He told them where to install the beams and braces.

However, I was not there and neither were you. I doubt this crew set out that morning with the intention of cheating the OP, they just went out to do their job. Until you have done this work, you don't really have the basis to criticize.
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Old 09-22-2017, 03:01 PM   #17
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I think you and I need to have a drink together.
No, thanks.
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:11 PM   #18
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Actually, Wes, just you and BandB.

Have a nice day.
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:44 PM   #19
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As a tradesman who has performed this type of work for 30 years I can tell you that unfortunately this type of experience is not rare for the consumer. I have gone on countless jobs to repair the repair, and usually at a cost to the customer that more that doubled the original budget..
The fault , for lack of a better word falls on both the uneducated consumer and the contractor...The customer in this situation is focused on the BEST price, time and time again this approach usually ends up costing both additional money and headaches ...
People have a hard time parting with hard earned money and understandably are attracted to the lowest bid..
Like in any business, the world of contracting is full of opportunistic , unscrupulous, people that will do anything and everything to make a buck. It's unfortunate, it's makes all of us look bad, but it is how it is..
Regarding your specific job, anything on the work order needs to be executed, the purpose of the contract is to let you know what you are paying for, the contractor must do everything listed or give a reason for exclusion and provide a credit. We will often make changes in the field as required to better execute our job, so changes , measurements, etc are never written in stone as field conditions may dictate these changes..
Lastly , forget about your doors working and floors being level again, the type of structural repairs that you are having done can NEVER guarantee that these condition will self correct, if you were told this it was just a tactic to sell you the job. Houses take many years to settle , wood takes on shapes that will not easily be persuaded back to attention.
It is reasonable to expect some improvement, but if were doing this job the contract would clearly state that Phase 1 pricing involves structural support, jacking, sistering etc..Phase 2 will involve making any and all cosmetic repairs , doors trimmed, repair cracked walls and moldings, this estimate will be given after structural work is complete and we can clearly see what is needed..
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Old 09-23-2017, 08:35 AM   #20
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As a tradesman who has performed this type of work for 30 years I can tell you that unfortunately this type of experience is not rare for the consumer. I have gone on countless jobs to repair the repair, and usually at a cost to the customer that more that doubled the original budget..
The fault , for lack of a better word falls on both the uneducated consumer and the contractor...The customer in this situation is focused on the BEST price, time and time again this approach usually ends up costing both additional money and headaches ...
People have a hard time parting with hard earned money and understandably are attracted to the lowest bid..
Like in any business, the world of contracting is full of opportunistic , unscrupulous, people that will do anything and everything to make a buck. It's unfortunate, it's makes all of us look bad, but it is how it is..
Regarding your specific job, anything on the work order needs to be executed, the purpose of the contract is to let you know what you are paying for, the contractor must do everything listed or give a reason for exclusion and provide a credit. We will often make changes in the field as required to better execute our job, so changes , measurements, etc are never written in stone as field conditions may dictate these changes..
Lastly , forget about your doors working and floors being level again, the type of structural repairs that you are having done can NEVER guarantee that these condition will self correct, if you were told this it was just a tactic to sell you the job. Houses take many years to settle , wood takes on shapes that will not easily be persuaded back to attention.
It is reasonable to expect some improvement, but if were doing this job the contract would clearly state that Phase 1 pricing involves structural support, jacking, sistering etc..Phase 2 will involve making any and all cosmetic repairs , doors trimmed, repair cracked walls and moldings, this estimate will be given after structural work is complete and we can clearly see what is needed..
Hi and thanks.

I will take pics and measure and report back, plan to crawl under and see what they put where.

So if they did not sister and put the girders where they said then I have a case for them to either make it right or reduce the cost of the work. I should have gone over there the day they dug the holes and discuss their own grid work with them. The feedback I got from their lead, tells me they did not follow their own drawn plan.
And these 3 'ethnic' guys seemed to not know all that much either. I wonder if they can read with comprehension, many people can read but some can not understand what they read..

The rear utility and bathroom area is the worst part of the sag and they did not lift the sag and the door to the bath is as way off as it was before.

when I was pointing out the door frame, their lead tried to fit his way too long level on top and could not. and oh well, lets just see how it goes... when they do the lifting and the results don't look good. Its like a buyer would come in and look and think the house needs foundation work, and I will tell them oh but it did, it did have foundation work done, and they will walk away thinking this house has a serious issue.
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