Had foundation work done and they screwed up badly.

[Genecop]

A couple of comments after seeing your video....the optimum placement for the girder really can't be determined until your under the house visually seeing the condition, so the 9' reference unless he went under and spent some time was a + or - estimate.

Typically, center of the span is optimum but load bearing walls above could offset the load point to off center..Regarding the 1/4" space, not uncommon, the bottom plane of the floor joists will not be consistent with the straight plane of the girder, hardwood shims should be installed , we then secure the shims with construction adhesive..

Just another insight into this type of work. Laying on your back, and crawling around a 3' crawl space with a dirt floor for most people is not much fun. Spiders, garbage, and other unpleasant things make it a job that most people want to get done ASAP..

In my early 20s I learned about making the most of every experience, often getting my employees to feel the same way was a challenge. My point is there are really a small handful of guys in the field that have the patience , experience, and the personality that will let them go into that space, relax, enjoy, and do the right job..

That's why this type of work most often done incorrectly, or capable homeowners end up doing it themselves..

 

[Genecop]

One more thing, floor joists that have been overloaded, and your appear to be hem fir, yellow pine, probably not Doug fir because of all the checking...The sag will remain always, when you try to straighten , all you do is end up lifting the entire bowed joist off the plate, Unless the ends are firmly secured to the plates and you raise slowly, over weeks, you can do more damage than good..in extreme conditions the joist needs to be cut, ( relieved) then sistered, it's the only way to straighten a severely bowed joist..

 

[sdowney717]

One more thing, floor joists that have been overloaded, and your appear to be hem fir, yellow pine, probably not Doug fir because of all the checking...The sag will remain always, when you try to straighten , all you do is end up lifting the entire bowed joist off the plate, Unless the ends are firmly secured to the plates and you raise slowly, over weeks, you can do more damage than good..in extreme conditions the joist needs to be cut, ( relieved) then sistered, it's the only way to straighten a severely bowed joist..

The lead worker though lied to me saying none of the joists were cracked. Now Steve who wrote this work order, had crawled under there and noted that 4 joists were cracked and needed sistering, so HOW can the worker actually think He could get away with the lie? This was on the work order, sister 4 joists. So yeah these guys doing this work were trying to cheat us and fool us, they did seem kind of like scammers when I talked to the lead guy. They probably did not want to do the sistering.

A home inspector for the buyer will note this deficiency, and require a repair.

No money has been spent, I plan to call Steve to discuss what they did.

About the sistering, all the broken joists are in the rear, breaks are located forward of the new rear girder running towards the center original girder.

Can the sister simply run from girder to girder and how far to overlap? The girders are 10 inch tall. I was thinking I with a helper could drop the new girder and slide in 4 short sections about 2x10x10's. then simply put the new girder back on and screw the power posts up.

And about the new girder in the forward part of the house, placed at 10 foot. The main girder sits about 12.5 foot, so really this seems dumb to me. I think rather should have been placed in the center of the span.

 

[hfoster]

That doesn't work so well with foundation companies. The bad ones are use to it and they'll have a lien quickly placed on the house, then you're the one who will have to initiate any court action.

In order to get a lien place on you the company has to take you to court. If you contest the lien it turns into a whole new ball game for the company when you have proof they did shotty work!

Cheers.

H.

 

[mbevins]

In order to get a lien place on you the company has to take you to court. If you contest the lien it turns into a whole new ball game for the company when you have proof they did shotty work!

Cheers.

H.

Check your jurisdiction, in ours, the contractor is entitled to register a substantial completion lien on the property. He just fills out the necessary paperwork. This is his insurance he will be paid. It's pretty common on most decent size construction projects. The contractor has 30 days from substantial completion to file. On residential projects it gives him plenty of time to determine whether he has a problem. On large commercial work it's just "Standard operating procedure" to do this.

 

[hfoster]

Check your jurisdiction, in ours, the contractor is entitled to register a substantial completion lien on the property. He just fills out the necessary paperwork. This is his insurance he will be paid. It's pretty common on most decent size construction projects. The contractor has 30 days from substantial completion to file. On residential projects it gives him plenty of time to determine whether he has a problem. On large commercial work it's just "Standard operating procedure" to do this.

You are corrected with the above. However the paper work has to be filed with the courts in order to have the lien put in place. The lien will be for the mount unpaid. The lien can only be issue by the courts.

Once the paperwork is filed with the courts you can contest their filing for the lien, which in turn the courts will set a hearing date after your file your brief with the courts with your objection to their request for a lien.

Any lien can be contested.

Cheers

H.

 

[BandB]

In order to get a lien place on you the company has to take you to court. If you contest the lien it turns into a whole new ball game for the company when you have proof they did shotty work!

Cheers.

H.

Not on work of this sort in every state I've lived in. They just have to file a UCC form. House construction and vehicle repairs have their own special rules and that includes roofing and foundation work. I don't know for certain the rules in the OP's state, but I'm sure the foundation company does.

Florida law:

According to Florida law, those who work on your property or provide materials, and are not paid-in-full, have a right to enforce their claim for payment against your property. This claim is known as a construction
lien.

If your contractor fails to pay subcontractors or material suppliers, the people who are owed money may look to your property for payment, even if you have paid your contractor in full. This means that if a lien is filed against your property, your property could be sold against your will to pay for labor, materials, or other services which your contractor may have failed to pay.​

Here's the link:

http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/pro/elboard/documents/florida_lien_law.pdf

Every state is different, but filing the lien in most states does not require court. Court happens only after you contest it. Burden on homeowner. Many states are tougher on the homeowner than FL.

Also, if you signed an agreement, it may well have established the lien on the document in the fine print.

 

[BandB]

In some states, there is an additional process called "perfecting the lien." This is simply a lawsuit to enforce the lien. It is generally very easy and doesn't typically require any proof the work was done well, just proof that labor and materials were expended on the work.

This is not all that different from how mechanic's liens work on vehicles and on boats in some states.

I would advise the OP that the moment they feel this is not going to be easily resolved and there is going to be a dispute, engage an attorney knowledgeable in all the laws of your state and any local laws as well. For instance, there can be local permit laws that become applicable.

 

[CPseudonym]

Before you get any deeper into this go pull a permit from your local building authorities and start down the path of doing this right. A failed inspection is your only and best friend.

 

[hfoster]

Not on work of this sort in every state I've lived in. They just have to file a UCC form. House construction and vehicle repairs have their own special rules and that includes roofing and foundation work. I don't know for certain the rules in the OP's state, but I'm sure the foundation company does.

Florida law:

According to Florida law, those who work on your property or provide materials, and are not paid-in-full, have a right to enforce their claim for payment against your property. This claim is known as a construction
​

lien.

If your contractor fails to pay subcontractors or material suppliers, the people who are owed money may look to your property for payment, even if you have paid your contractor in full. This means that if a lien is filed against your property, your property could be sold against your will to pay for labor, materials, or other services which your contractor may have failed to pay.
​

Here's the link:

http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/pro/elboard/documents/florida_lien_law.pdf

Every state is different, but filing the lien in most states does not require court. Court happens only after you contest it. Burden on homeowner. Many states are tougher on the homeowner than FL.

Also, if you signed an agreement, it may well have established the lien on the document in the fine print.

Okay. However I did said contest the lien which in turn forces it in to court. Even if a state has it where you can file a lien without the court, how would it be enforce without the court? They can't. So if the person that placed the lien on the home or whatever, go to collect, they will have to take it in court, at which time you contest the lien.

As far as the Fl. law. that would open up a countersuits in many cases.

Subcontractor can files a lien, that mean you suit the contractor.

Also what if the contractor over bills you and they try placing a lien on you? Does that contractor get the money in Florida just because they did work on your home then placed a lien on it? No you take it into court the same as you do if the job is not done right.

There are laws that protect the home owner from liens placed on them by bad contractors, and I am sure if you look hard enough you will find the rights of the home owner in the same law you posted. (I am to lazy to look for it) The law is not one sided just for the contractor so there are rights and law for the home owner as well.

I agree with you that every state is different and it is best to chat with an attorney that is why I have a very good one.

I do thank you for the info on the FL law you posted it was a great read. I also thank you for you input!

Cheers

H.

 

[BandB]

Well, what happens in a state that allows a filing of a lien without court is that often the lien sits out there until one of two things happens. One is the lienholder starts foreclosure procedures. The other is that they do nothing and just wait until the property owner decides to sell the property. It's not uncommon at all for a homeowner to sell and then find out they can't close due to a lien. At that point they either pay quickly or lose the sale. There have been new homes built and sold that later the homeowner found out there was a lien from one of the subcontractors.

Any dispute between a property owner and a contractor or supplier can quickly become a complex legal matter. One of the worst situations I've seen is someone has some major remodeling done. The contractor does a great job. All is good. Until three subcontractors place liens totaling $40k. Contractor files bankruptcy. Homeowner spent over $10k disputing the bankruptcy filing, breaking the corporate shield, and getting criminal charges filed against the contractor. It took over three years and even when settled no one came out whole.

 

[Genecop]

The lead worker though lied to me saying none of the joists were cracked. Now Steve who wrote this work order, had crawled under there and noted that 4 joists were cracked and needed sistering, so HOW can the worker actually think He could get away with the lie? This was on the work order, sister 4 joists. So yeah these guys doing this work were trying to cheat us and fool us, they did seem kind of like scammers when I talked to the lead guy. They probably did not want to do the sistering.

A home inspector for the buyer will note this deficiency, and require a repair.

No money has been spent, I plan to call Steve to discuss what they did.

About the sistering, all the broken joists are in the rear, breaks are located forward of the new rear girder running towards the center original girder.




Can the sister simply run from girder to girder and how far to overlap? The girders are 10 inch tall. I was thinking I with a helper could drop the new girder and slide in 4 short sections about 2x10x10's. then simply put the new girder back on and screw the power posts up.




And about the new girder in the forward part of the house, placed at 10 foot. The main girder sits about 12.5 foot, so really this seems dumb to me. I think rather should have been placed in the center of the span.

Assuming you are OK with simply holding the structure in its current position and not wanting to do anymore lifting, then yes you could sister the broken joists just between the girders provided that's the location of the damage..

The overlap should be the full load bearing on the girder, + 2-3 " over each side..Use Pl adhesive and quick lags/ screws for the right job..

 

[sdowney717]

Assuming you are OK with simply holding the structure in its current position and not wanting to do anymore lifting, then yes you could sister the broken joists just between the girders provided that's the location of the damage..

The overlap should be the full load bearing on the girder, + 2-3 " over each side..Use Pl adhesive and quick lags/ screws for the right job..

I am going to expect them to adhere to the contract at least a s far as sistering the 4 cracked joist, otherwise we are not going to pay them.
The other 2 companies are in agreement with sistering in their estimates.
Most likely Steve is not aware of what they did. I put all these videos and pictures into an album and will email them and call Steve monday.

They likely will say one foot wont much difference regarding the error of 10 versus 9 foot. I have been wondering if Steve who drew the plan in the center of the span wrote down the wrong number!!

Virginia Foundation Solutions, a company we got a higher estimate from showed the new girder centered in the span. I do not like the lying and then the incompetence of reading comprehension they displayed. VFS was a lot more money, they wanted to do full length centered girders.

Link to album I will send.
https://1drv.ms/a/s!AqrOjz4_QIRDihwz3yOBrz9lue_y

 

[BandB]

Virginia Foundation Solutions, a company we got a higher estimate from showed the new girder centered in the span. I do not like the lying and then the incompetence of reading comprehension they displayed. VFS was a lot more money, they wanted to do full length centered girders.

Any second thoughts on not going with them?

 

[sdowney717]

Any second thoughts on not going with them?

Not really sure, the quick emotional response is yes, but if logic prevails and this company fixes their mistakes no. But yeah we don't need extra stress in life.

 

[sdowney717]

Ok, I sent them an email describing the problems where they failed to deliver according to their contract, and linked to the photo album

https://1drv.ms/a/s!AqrOjz4_QIRDihwz3yOBrz9lue_y

He called me 8:45 am said he had seen my email and will meet with me tomorrow at 11:30 am for him to review for himself and talk to me about making this right.

He apologized about the sistering, claimed he forgot to include in the work order, even though on his contracted plan submitted to us. About the girder in the wrong spot, he said might not make a difference, see already compromising the original work to be done.

He said the lead told him the door was improved. I told him the floor still sags 3/4 inch over 4 foot right next to the door. And the door was shaved, so it is still if it closes way off from where it should be. My plan was to repair the door so it look square again, right now it looks sloping crooked at a very obvious angle, it is not subtle. I told him the lead tech lied to me and he was silent.

My guess, he wont want to move any girders, will want to jack the left post of the rear girder to lift the floor and will want to sister those 4 joists.

 

[sdowney717]

Met with Steve, he was apologetic.
He said they will fix the defficienies.
They will sister 4 joists. The sisters will be in 2 sections meeting on the new girder in the bathroom area, so all 4 joists will have full length sistering with ends hanging over the new girder.

He said that should fix the bathroom door sagging so badly and the still sloping utility room floor.

About the new girder under front foyer being off by a foot, said won't make a difference. That girder was partly to fix the living room double door sag which it did not fix. So he said will place a block between the joists perpendicular and jack it somehow using the new girder? Could be he plans to put this block where the new girder sits, although I am thinking since it is 2.5 foot away from the edge of the door wall where the door hing is, might not do the job. If the new girder was at the original 9 foot position would have been better for that!

The sagging wall seems to lie between joists, AFAIK.It needs to move up about 3/8 inch at the door to make the doors function again. We were thinking the wall came down as it was sitting on plywood subfloor as the only support.


And the OEM builder placed a nailer on the top edge of the living room door joist. I think because the plywood sheet otherwise did not fall on top the joist. So maybe that nailed on little wood piece has dropped down too.


The front foyer has a nice slate floor. So far it has survived.

 

[Genecop]

Sounds like he is stepping up and will make it right, get it done, and move on..

 

[sdowney717]

Sounds like he is stepping up and will make it right, get it done, and move on..

I hope so!

 

[CDreamer]

Going back to Post #5 (Xsbank's comment about poor quality American crafts):

NOTE: This isn't a political statement and I'm truly a patriotic guy. Eagle Scout, stand for the National Anthem, etc.

BUT...To Xsbanks point:
Many of you will remember when the US was the world's dominant provider of durable goods....appliances, manufacturing machinery, farm equipment, cars. To be honest, at that time we didn't have much competition. We had many craftsmen, most of whom were descendants of fairly recent immigrant ancestors.
At first, 'Made in Japan' meant junk quality, but in the mid-20th century, companies like Toyota emerged with new - and better - quality control processes. (TQC). Others followed.
Oddly, US corporations didn't respond by adopting the new ideas - in fact they ignored them. Some of this was Union-driven, an unwillingness to change. But not all.
Instead, business leaders said to themselves, "We're losing ground to Asia but that's ok. Manufacturing isn't where it's at anyway. We'll become the world's Service Provider. Law, Accounting, Airlines, Business Consulting. Yeah! SERVICE is the new thing and that's what we'll excel at!"

The problem is, service in this country SUCKS! (Cue United Airlines beat-down video)

So if service is what we are hanging our collective hat on, we are in big trouble, folks.

The fallout related to this TF string is that during our big shift to service, we lost a big % of the craft training. We are still trying to get them back.

But I'm not saying good craftsmen dont exist.

(and by the way, Microsoft Windows 10 is complete garbage.)

 

[sdowney717]

Again, a big disappointment with the work.
I setup an album and wrote in comments.

They notched the ends to fit in the new joist so they could slide them in. So no good support.

Some joists sit only on the new girder so have free hanging ends
Only one joist ran a full sister, as he said all 4 would be full sisters.

And the little block to shore up door frame does nothing at all.
Not sure such work would pass a home inspection.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AqrOjz4_QIRDiz4fTRWbCIKKNoQR