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Old 02-25-2010, 08:50 AM   #21
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RE: Guns onboard

No guns on my boat. I have considered the idea, but I'm just not comfortable with firearms enough to want to own one. There may be a day in the future that I will want to take a few beginner shooting and safety classes to feel like I could have a single small weapon onboard (maybe a 9mm or something), but I will have a lot of soul searching to do before that day comes. In the meantime, I am happy to take my chances that someone that want to rob a boater will look at my 35' trawler from the 80's and see someone that is hardly worth their time. It would be like car-jacking a '71 Pinto instead of the '08 Lexus in the next lane.
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Old 02-25-2010, 09:15 AM   #22
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RE: Guns onboard

Quote:
Delfin wrote:

If you want to take a gun into Canada it is a major hassle, and since that is mostly where we cruise I have had to leave the Mossberg home.

We have crossed the border about 15 times in the last few years, all while carrying our Mossburg.* EVERY time we are required to purchase a permit. In years past it was good for a year, but a couple years ago they changed it to only be valid for three months. This means I have to get a new permit each spring and fall. Getting the permit is very simple.* When checking in, the customs folks come to the boat and issue it on the spot, never any problem at all.* When we were stopped near Campbell River, had we not had the permit, I have no doubt we would have been in loads of trouble.* As it was we had to endure a lot of flack from the officers for even having it, but we were totally legal so we escaped the boarding process with little problem.* .............Arctic Traveller

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Old 02-25-2010, 01:28 PM   #23
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RE: Guns onboard

XE Services (fka Blackwater) offers the finest civilian weapons training in the country imho (no affiliation on my part) you can find them at "ustraining.com"

I believe the choice should be yours as to owning and carrying a firearm, but if you choose to do so, get trained.* They used to say 'train hard or don't train at all' ...at least that's what is on my souvenir coffee cup
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Old 02-25-2010, 03:32 PM   #24
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Guns onboard

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

It has been this way for the past 40 to 50 years when entering Canada.
Sorry but in every floatplane flight we have made into Canada starting in 1985 we have carried the shotgun, sometimes two of them, and we have NEVER had to obtain a permit or do anything other than answer a couple of customs questions either directly to the agent on the dock or over the phone.* Our experience with the boat has been exactly the same.

I have gone moose hunting in BC numerous times in the 1980s and 90s, and on driving across the border at Blaine have NEVER had to obtain a permit to take our rifles into Canada.* The agents have sometimes wanted to look at them to make sure they were not loaded and that the actions were opened per their requirements.* But I have never had to obtain a permit and the couple of times I've actually asked an agent abou this as we checked into Canada he or she simply said, "No need."

So there seems to be a major disconnect betweeen whatever is printed in the regulation and what the agents actually do.

I have no objection to getting a permit on crossing the border and the process is apparently dead simple,*but so far, starting in 1979 when I moved to Washington to the present (the last time I took*a firearm into Canada was last September) I have never been told to fill anything out and in most cases the agents were satisfied with the verbal answers I gave to their "do you have a firearm"*questions and didn't even want to see the firearm.

So from my perspective, if it ain't broke, I ain't gonna fix it.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 25th of February 2010 04:34:57 PM
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Old 02-25-2010, 08:11 PM   #25
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RE: Guns onboard

I went to gander mtn tonight and bought a mossberg 500 cruiser just in case model. No marinecoat for me. Wd40 will do just fine. Plus I don't like the look of the nickel plating.
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Old 02-25-2010, 08:39 PM   #26
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RE: Guns onboard

Quote:
Marin wrote:Sorry but in every floatplane flight we have made into Canada starting in 1985 we have carried the shotgun, sometimes two of them, and we have NEVER had to obtain a permit

Marin,* I think you are taking a BIG chance without a permit.* This is a quote taken directly from the RCMP website.** See it here:* http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/p.../hl-fs-eng.htm

<h3>Requirements for Non-residents</h3>
Non-residents who wish to bring a firearm to Canada and who are at least 18 years old can meet Canada's licence and registration requirements by filling out the Non-Resident Firearms Declaration and having it confirmed by a customs officer. A confirmed declaration serves as a temporary licence and registration certificate for the firearm being imported. Non-residents also have the option of obtaining a PAL and registering their firearms in Canada.

*

I believe that no matter what anyone has told you in the past, officially or not, you run the risk of loss of your firearms at minimum, or far worse depending on the mood at the time the violation is discovered.* We were boarded by the RCMP, and one of the first questions asked was "Are the any firearms aboard"?, The next statement was "May I see your permit"?

Perhaps you have been lucky in the past, but I think you are living on borrowed time, and as easy as it is to remain in compliance, why would you choose not to do so?* The law clearly requires you to obtain a Firearms declaration, and without it you are breaking the law.* Not something I would want to do in Canada, as you could be denied entry forever more as a criminal......................Arctic Traveller

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Old 02-25-2010, 09:49 PM   #27
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RE: Guns onboard

Like I said, I have no problems with getting a permit. But each time I've asked customs when we've come across the border with the shotgun, they have told us that there is no need for us to get a permit. Since they are the ones who apparently issue the permit, it seems sort of unproductive to demand that they issue us a permit that they just told us we don't need.

Seems a kind of Catch-22 to me......
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:42 PM   #28
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RE: Guns onboard

Marin et-al, the controlling agency in Canada is the RCMP and not the border agents. The border agents simply check the fire arm (s) and issue a control number but it is still an official RCMP form. Like a whole lot of our current border issues it all depends on the agent in question but if you do not have the permit and are challenged by an RCMP member you would, in my opinion, be in deep s--t and it would not be worth the risk to not have one as you said.
The entire firearms regulation issue in Canada is a real mess what with the original government estimate of $2 million dollars to implement the registry and ended up costing in excess of $3 billion and the government auditors have found so many fouled up booking areas that they are still not sure that's all it cost.
An example of how fouled up it is - I have 3 custom made antique English rifles and a shotgun that I inherited from my grandfather who brought them with him in 1909 when he immigrated to Canada. So -- I dutifully send in my fee and all the information I can recover from the guns which have no serial numbers per say, and I get back 4 tags to adhere to them with absolutely no reference as to what tag belongs to what gun - go figure! Now the time has come to re-register so I send in the info and they say - hey those numbers are all on the wrong guns but still do not tell me what goes where - both the local RCMP and I gave up at that point and the RCMP tagged my local file to say there was a question as to the numbers but that they were all legit and they also agreed with me that if I put a modern cartridge in any one of them and fired it that the gun would probably explode in my face so they are of no risk in a criminal sence except maybe a case of fright by the oposite person on seeing one of them
So - make a short stop at the border and get a permit and the everyone will be sort of happy!
John
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Old 02-25-2010, 11:40 PM   #29
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Guns onboard

Quote:
Penta wrote:

So - make a short stop at the border and get a permit and the everyone will be sort of happy!
John
That makes sense but......* on my most recent border crossing with a firearm I asked the customs agent if I need to fill out a permit request.* She said no.* I said are you sure.* She said yes but they would check, pull ahead into the parking area.* Went inside, the person at the counter called (in front of me) the RCMP, described the situation, asked if I needed to fill out a permit, listened, hung up the phone and said "Nope," and sent me on my way.

I have printed out the relevant form and will put some on the boat and keep some at home for the car and plane*and fill them out and*present them*to the*customs agent when we cross over again with a firearm.* But*based on the reaction I've gotten so far, I expect to see a blank look and be asked "what's this?"

The first time we crossed into Canada with a dog, which would have been in the mid-1980s, we read that we had to make sure that we had the dog's current vaccination papers. So we did.* I've never counted but I'm guessing that we've entered Canada at least a hundred times with a dog*since then, and not once-- with the dog sitting there looking at the customs agent and the agent looking back at the dog--- have we ever been asked a word about the dog's papers.

We've had the dog's food confiscated by the US customs folks on the way back in--- mad cow disease paranoia--- but the Canadian customs agents apparently didn't get the memo about vaccination papers for dogs coming in.* It seems the situation is no different for the gun permit.

On the other hand, our dogs have all been a Canadian breed, so maybe the agents just figured they were returning citizens.....



-- Edited by Marin on Friday 26th of February 2010 01:04:31 AM
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:12 AM   #30
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RE: Guns onboard

For anyone interested and who's not seen one this is the Savage 69-RXL. Eighteen and a quarter inch barrel, seven-round magazine, overall length is about 38 inches. It's what Alaska Fish & Game acquaintances advised us to buy when we started taking the floatplane into serious back country in BC and SE Alaska in the later 1980s. For bear protection we load it with alternating slug and buckshot shells. We also carry a box of birdshot shells as part of our survival kit. Savage came out with this in the mid-'80s and it was popular with law enforcement and was used by the military. It is no longer in Savage''s production lineup--- I don't know when it was taken out of production. A quick internet search turned up several for sale at reasonable prices.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:02 PM   #31
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Guns onboard

City people? Really? Perhaps you should use a tad smaller of brush to paint people with. It's not "city people" it's the sons and daughters of over-protective, sheltering parents you seem to have a beef with. Parents that don't let kids play Dodgeball or play cops and robbers or just send them out to play with a stick and crushed Coke can. Just plop the kid in front of a Wii and let the bowl or play Guitar Hero.

I am not surprised that after the events of September 11, 2001 that box cutters were not pulled off the shelves.

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Friday 26th of February 2010 01:03:25 PM
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:16 PM   #32
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RE: Guns onboard

Carrying a shotgun for bear protection...

First, I'll admit that I have not directly encountered bear in the bush, although I have experienced fresh tracks over mine once when returning to my dinghy. I guess I can understand the deterrence of a loud blast, but is this really an effective weapon against a charge?

True story; I once ran a geological exploration unit, and was approached by a young geologist with a short barrel shotgun and a plan for minerals exploration in the Alaskan bush. When I asked how he planned on using the weapon against a surprise charge, he answered in all seriousness, that he would wait until he could put the barrel in the bear's mouth and blow its brains out. I relieved the lad of both the weapon and the Alaskan plan.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:46 PM   #33
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RE: Guns onboard

Wasn't it Australia that reciently outlawed all guns?

I heard that violent crime went up.

A law abiding citizen with a gun will never hurt anybody with that gun.
A gun is like a knife, A tool.
Canada claims to be a free country. Yet they have so many laws restricting personal freedom.
Don't they trust each other? Come on. A permit to cary a knife. Are they going to out law fists. There are some people who like to break things and hurt people. How do you protect yourself. Call the RCMP to come and take a report after the incident. Every man in Switzerland is required to have a firearm. A peacfull society. They have chocolate , banks and guns.

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Old 02-26-2010, 12:51 PM   #34
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RE: Guns onboard

Quote:
oldfishboat wrote:

Marin be carefull , some will have zero issue, some will make it like you are the worst person on the planet. Ya a big halibit can and will given the chance screw up a great fishing trip. But till ya seen that up close and personal your only thoughts on fire arms be ?
Well, the gun thing really belongs in OTDE but since it started here and is sort of related to boats I will magnify the error by answering your question here.

In Alaska a (legal) firearm is part of the required survival equipment list for flights into remote country.* In BC it was not required but it was recommended.* I don't know if Canada's position has changed on that or not.* But I believe a person's attitude toward firearms will be based on what they picked up during their "formative" years.* Not unlike your young friends from the city who weren't sure what to make of an axe.

I have no fascination for firearms, and I have no inherent fear of them.* I don't regard them as dangerous, or any more dangerous than a lawn mower or a chain saw.* I certainly have no problem with people owning them if they want to.* I attribute my ambivalent attitude toward them to my exposure to them at a fairly early age.* I grew up in Hawaii and at that time ROTC was required for all sophomore and junior boys in high school.* Our "officers" were seniors and that was voluntary.* Every public high school in the state, and the larger private schools like Punahou and Kamehameha had this same curriculum.* The only way to get out of it was with a doctor's letter saying you were physically unable to participate.

Each boy was assigned an M1 Garand rifle for the school year. * At my high school they were kept in an armory room under the bleachers at the football field. The firing pins had been removed but otherwise it was a regular issue rifle.* It was our responsibility to keep our assigned rifle in perfect condition for the year.* Every Wednesday we wore our uniforms to school and had drill after school for an hour.* We learned the manual of arms, we learned how to march and maneuver, and so on.* During the week we had ROTC class and PE on alternate days.

Viet Nam was cranking up and and Hawaii was a very "military" state.* At that time, the number one driver of the state's economy was the military. The Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force had huge and very active bases all over the island of Oahu and being in the military was a respected profession in the eyes of the civilian residents of the state, unlike what was going on with regards to Viet Nam on the mainland.*

The number two source of income for the state was agriculture (sugar and pineapple), and number three was tourism.* Obviously it's not the same today.

Our ROTC classes were taught by regular Army sergeants.* We learned to strip and reassemble our M1s, its Viet Nam replacement, the M14, the M60 machine gun, and the Colt 45.* And after we learned to do al this with the lights on, we then had to learn to do it all blindfolded.* And if anyone here has ever stripped down and reassembled an M1 Garand, you can imagine how lethal it could be in a roomful of boys doing this in the dark.

We had map reading lessons and learned---- we're high school kids, remember--- how to determine coordinates for artillery strikes.* We learned first aid.* We had rifle and pistol practice on a range behind the football stadium.* A couple of times a year there were drill and skill competitions in Honolulu Stadium between all the ROTC brigades from the high schools.

The result of all this was at least one generation of kids in Hawaii who regarded guns no differently than a hammer.** It was a tool to be used when required.* Otherwise, we didn't think about them at all.* Each firearm I own was acquired to do a specific thing, primarily different kinds of hunting---- deer, moose, and (in Hawaii) boar.* I only have one "collector" gun, a very rare Winchester model from 1895, but I actually acquired that for hunting, too.

I have no need for a semi-automatic, "assault" weapons so I don't have any.* I have no fascination for them at all, perhaps because of my exposure to the military aspect of weaponry at an early age.* I personally believe owning one as a civilian is pointless other than the fact that for a lot of guys they are effective (apparently) penis-magnifiers.* I also believe legislation to ban them is also pointless although if laws were passed banning private ownership of assault-type weapons I wouldn't care.

So I personally have no issue with a person who desires to have a gun on board their boat, particularly someone who boats in remote areas where survival or protection could become part of the boating experience fairly quickly.* I doubt we'd be concerned about bears and whatnot if we were boating in California where most boaters cruise around San Francisco Bay and up the Sacramento River or go out to Catalina and back.

I do think, as you point out, that it's important to judge your surroundings, including the people, when it comes to firearms.* I can't imagine anyone getting upset at the sight of our shotgun on a dock in Petersburg or at a lake up in the Carriboo* in BC.* But I wouldn't go waving it around at the dock at Roche Harbor in the San Juans or in Sidney or Nanaimo.



*
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:06 PM   #35
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Guns onboard

Red ,
Why?
I have been charged by an angry sow with cubs. A report From my sawed off mosberg pump sure made the bear stop and take a second look.
She went away.

Marin,
Assult rifels. We in America have the 2nd ammendment to protect ourself from our government. Possie comantadis. I don't want to go up against the best armed fighting force in the world with a black powder blunderbuss.

-- Edited by skipperdude on Friday 26th of February 2010 02:18:59 PM
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:35 PM   #36
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Guns onboard

Quote:
RED wrote:

Carrying a shotgun for bear protection...but is this really an effective weapon against a charge?
Absolutely and I am able to write this because it works.* In fact, the only effective weapon against a charging bear, particularly a big breed like a brown, is a 12-gauge shotgun (a 10-gauge would be even better but they are not very common and I don't know if there are high-power slugs made for them).

The following is what we were taught by people we know who encounter bears on a regular basis, and I have once proved it myself.* This is NOT, repeat NOT, an excuse to blow away a bear just because you can. * They are magnificent animals if you encounter them in the wild and they have as much right to live their lives as we do ours.* However, I'm not going to trade mine for the bear's.* This is also NOT an excuse to not try every other alternative to deter the bear's charge.* It is only a last line of defense when there is no option left.

One of the most effective bear deterrents is a compressed gas boat horn, the kind you can buy at West Marine.* We carry these on the boat and in the plane for this purpose and beep them off periodically when we're walking in bear country.* But if all deterrents fail and the bear charges, you wait (if you can make yourself do it) until the bear is perhaps 50 feet from you, you aim for the chest (not the head) and start firing the shotgun.* And you do not stop until the gun is empty, which is one reason the Savage 69RXL was so prized by the Fish & Game folks and back country pilots I talked to because of its seven shot magazine.

I was told that the reason a rifle is pretty much worthless in this situation is that when a bear finally charges, it is so hopped up on adrenaline that a shot that would kill it if it was just walking along will have no immediate effect.* But even more important than that is the fact that a charging bear has a tremendous amount of momentum. The shotgun slugs at very close range have tremendous stopping power, far more than even a .44 magnum handgun, which is why we were told that if you choose a handgun as a bear defense weapon the only time it will work is if you can jam it in the bear's mouth to hold its jaws open so it can't bite you.*

It does little good to fire a killing shot that does not actually stop the bear because if the bear's momentum carries it into you, it can easily kill you even as it's dying.* The advantage of the shotgun, and the non-stop firing of it, is that it can physically halt the bear or at least slow it down.* The whole object in defending against a charge is to prevent the bear from coming within physical reach of you.* If he or she does, you're probably dead or at best terribly wounded, no matter what ultimately happens to the bear.* Forget the teeth--- they're the least of your worries.* Take a look at the claws on a brown, or even a black.* That's what's going to do you in.

The reason you don't aim for the head (if you have the presence of mind to actually aim your shots) is that a bear's skull is incredibly strong and the front of the skull slopes back sharply away from you.* So it can actually deflect a bullet or even a slug.* Aiming for the chest and repeatedly firing into it breaks down the heavy muscles between its front legs.* If this works, it puts the bear down onto its chest which also halts or slows it's progress toward you.

It is one thing to write all this out nice and analytically.* It's a whole different deal to have a bear ignore all your shouts, horn blasts, and whistles and drop down on all fours and start toward you.* I have no idea what goes through a person's mind when this happens--- none of the people I know who have had this experience could tell me and I cannot remember what went through mine.* You just react.

There are a lot of things one can do to avoid a confrontation with a bear.* Learn the kind of terrain they like and avoid it.* Make noise as you travel through bear country.* Don't bother with bells on your feet--- the half serious joke is that the proof that bells don't work is all the bells that are found in bear poop.* Use the boat horns to let animals know of your presence long before you get to them.* We were told by a Fish & Game person that when they started issuing these horns to the college students they used to count spawning salmon in streams in SE Alaska the encounters with bears went from several a day to none.* If you come across a bear, even at close range, turn around and go the other way without stopping.* If you're close to a bear, NEVER stare at it.* Their eyesight sucks but if they are close enough to see you clearly, eye contact is a form of aggression (this is true of most animals other than domestic dogs) and can be all it takes to provoke a charge (I'm convinced this is what happened in my case).

And if you do see a bear, consider yourself very privileged.* Like wolves, they are incredible creatures and seeing one in its own habitat, freely living its life, is a truly awe-inspiring experience.* Way better than going to see Avatar in IMAX 3D.

*





-- Edited by Marin on Friday 26th of February 2010 02:45:26 PM
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:39 PM   #37
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RE: Guns onboard

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:I don't want to go up against the best armed fighting force in the world with a black powder blunderbuss.
It' won't matter.* The end result will be the same no matter what you have for a weapon.* Best-armed fighting force in the world-1, skipperdude-0.

But it's not something you're going to have to worry about.* You're more likely to be killed by a bear than the US military no matter how paranoid you may be about the government.

*
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:32 PM   #38
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RE: Guns onboard

Quote:
oldfishboat wrote:Didnt mean ta piss any one off.


Ya I should know better than ta share my thoughts on a public forum.

Think I will stick to just having beers on the beach while enjoying the company of others.
Not pissed... Just didn't want to let a country boy get too high on his horse. Should have use a smiley or two there... My bad!
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Old 02-26-2010, 04:28 PM   #39
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Guns onboard

Not Paranoid.
Just like to read the constitution.

Besides they are fun to shoot

-- Edited by skipperdude on Friday 26th of February 2010 05:29:22 PM
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Old 02-27-2010, 04:59 AM   #40
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RE: Guns onboard

For the folks that are not comfortable with guns, a reasonable alternative for a border or two is WASP SPRAY.

A shot in the face from 20- ft is an EZ hit , and will stop a nasty .

I don't know if the damage to lungs or eyes is perminant , but my motto has always been, "Mess with a bull you may get the horn" an intruder should feel lucky to not be DEAD.

In the Carib , swimmers can be a hassle , little noise in the approach.

Our solution (GRP boats) is uncovered , bare life lines and a 12v sears 15 mile cattle fence shocker.

Just don't forget to have a way to board , when you return from a day ashore.

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