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Old 11-18-2013, 01:40 PM   #41
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Regarding penetration: bullet selection is critical. But make sure the desirable bullet and cartridge will work reliably in the gun. (One reason I favor a revolver over a semi-auto pistol.)

Personal Defense Ammunition | Ballistics 101
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:57 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darylat8750 View Post

I hope the poster who mentioned damage to his boat really meant he was concerned about penetration to the point of injuring someone in another compartment. If it gets to shooting, the boat condition is not a consideration.

Kinda but not exactly. Like most i don't sleep with my shoes on, if need to move to protect myself or my family I'd prefer not to do it in a mess of broken fiberglass, glass or other debris.
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:00 PM   #43
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I keep swaying back and forth. I like the idea of a shotgun also. based on reading this and some experience with handguns, I think if I could only have one, the hand gun wins. Like mentioned earlier. A shotgun would not be practical if they already boarded and wake you up.
The idea of a dog aboard is a great idea, just not for me.
So much depends on how it fits you and your situation. A revolver might be fine for a more urban area. But out in the wilds, it may not be enough and can't be taken into Canada.

Nothing against handguns, I do own a few. But for my location and boating area a pump shotgun just makes better sense. Even birdshot at close range will repel an assailant and limits penetration. Plus you can mix your loads. 00 buck is a great choice for large cats, Elk, Moose, and even bear. A slug is a better option in bear country with good range and knockdown power.

A .44 Mag is my second choice, but can't take it into Canada and not a good choice for the little lady.

Bottom line it's your choice.
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Old 11-18-2013, 04:19 PM   #44
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My ten round 870 I load, slug, #4, #4, Slug, Slug, #4 etc. The slug is effective out to 100 yards and the #4 will just ruin someones day at close range, wall or no wall.

Oh and the poster that claimed a .223 will not penetrate is mistaken. That 55 grain FMJ will penetrate most anything on a boat.

For personal defense for a woman the Ruger 38/357 in six inch, stainless revolver is hard to beat. It could also be used as a club in a pinch.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:20 PM   #45
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A great personal defense weapon is a tiny 22 cal short auto...fits in the palm of your hand, a lady 's choice for some old time southern bells I know who have been carrying every day now for 50 years...

It also fits in any pocket so it's always with you moving around the boat and when a bad guy approaches...pulling your hands out of your pocket is pretty natural and expected...the 3 round burst to the face will usually do the trick to disorient the attacker so you can now have your way with them.

It also doesn't make much noise, so you can dump the body and move to the next town quietly if you don't like paperwork....

I guess my "arsenal" would be the 22 for sitting having cocktails outside, the larger caliber handgun for if below and someone makes it past my slow/stop barriers, and a shotgun for if I have more advance notice trouble is coming.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:39 PM   #46
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My ten round 870 I load, slug, #4, #4, Slug, Slug, #4 etc. The slug is effective out to 100 yards and the #4 will just ruin someones day at close range, wall or no wall.

Oh and the poster that claimed a .223 will not penetrate is mistaken. That 55 grain FMJ will penetrate most anything on a boat.

For personal defense for a woman the Ruger 38/357 in six inch, stainless revolver is hard to beat. It could also be used as a club in a pinch.
I didn't say 55 gr FMJ. I load Hornady VMAX It won't penetrate like your Slug. The 55gr FMJ is also less likely to over penetrate also. Suggest you read the entire comment and if you want to call me out fine but I suggest you know what you are talking about.

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/ammunition.html
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:14 PM   #47
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oops! New record, though...
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Old 11-18-2013, 06:21 PM   #48
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oops! New record, though...
Yep. Good run.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:01 PM   #49
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You may want to revisit your supporting statements.
each of these facts are nothing more than opinions, just as mine and yours and everyone else here. There are a number of dissenters within those links that feel otherwise.
(here are a few):

Quote:
I just have to add to your list of what you’ve given away when you “rack one in the chamber”. I’m not trying to disagree, but… In fact, you have given away two more very important bits of information. The fact that you do have a gun, and the fact that now it is loaded, cocked, and ready to fire. You only have to picture yourself in the dark, and in the stillness of the night you hear this loud “Kachunk Chunk!” I don’t know about you but it freezes me in my tracks. We RV around the country and my own issuance of that sound has saved us from any further troublesome actions by others of foul intentions a couple/few different times. Glad that I never had to shoot of course, and very relieved that the intruder decided it just wasn’t worth it. If you are looking for a war, you can probably find it these days. However if you’re just trying to diffuse or neutralize a situation, and save yourself all the trouble & turmoil after the fact, then the simple racking of a round into the chamber of any loud actioned firearm in the night, is usually enough to turn most, if not all, evil minded critters to completely forget their plans and worry about their own skin for just awhile. Luckily, in our cases, they were concerned enough to turn away and even in quite a flurry disappear… maybe to at least consider what shape they could have been in right now if they had proceeded. I know I would.
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I kind of agree with Kicknbak (#3 above). It is true that racking your shotgun gives away your general position. That, in and of itself, reveals that you are home. A shotgun can’t rack itself. As stated, it means that you have a weapon and it is loaded. And very likely ready, able and willing to use it defensively. When the intruder hears that, yes, he knows you are waiting with a loaded gun. It also means he has totally lost the tactical advantage of surprise. One thing criminals fear is failure. They like the deck stacked in their favor be it firepower, physical strength, numbers or surprise. If the playing field is the least bit level, I believe they will likely retreat and search out an easier target. I have read interviews where criminals stated they were more afraid of a homeowner with a firearm than getting caught by the police.
Comment by Joe — March 2, 2013 @ 12:50 pm
Quote:
I own two twelve guage shotguns. One is a pump with a short but legal length barrel. The other is a semi-automatic saiga. I never leave either one with a round in the chamber. I do however load both...
Comment by david robinson — March 3, 2013 @ 8:58 am
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Having been a police officer for a decade now and having deployed a pump shotgun many times against criminals, I can tell you the mere sound of a Remington 870 being racked, scares the crap out of most bad guys. I have had had them piss themselves, cry and flat out surrender without ever giving any commands.
Most criminals break into residences during the day when they hope the homeowner isn’t home.They do not want confrontation. To think a criminal is breaking into a residence looking for a gun fight is ridiculous. Any criminal short of one strung out on drugs or insane is going to hear that racking sound and go find an easier target to hit. And when they hear that racking sound, they may know where you were… After racking the shotgun, MOVE to another location. You still have the tactical advantage. Dial 911 and have the cavalry on their way with lights and siren going. You quietly hold your ground and if the burglar wasn’t smart enough to know to flee, he’s going to get a load of #6′s followed by loads of 0 buck shot until he is no longer a threat.
To worry that a armed intruder is going to immediately start shooting at the sound of a racking shotgun is like worry someone is going to light fire to my house while I am asleep. It sure can happen, but the odds are far less. I keep my shotgun with 6 in the tube but no round chambered. It is far safer in that condition. I do not feel I loose any tactical advantage by keeping it free of a round in the chamber. Last, you don’t have to make a pile of noise when racking a shotgun. If done gently, it can be rather quiet…
Comment by Johnson — March 4, 2013 @ 10:08 am

and we could go on and on...but why?
The fact is, it's a personal decision.

If we can get away from HOLLYWIERD for a moment, the fact is, as the officer above points out, we never carried a round in the chamber in our Mossberg's while on duty. We trained to load them as we exited the vehicle. Same with the Guard. While we would occasionally "lock and load" prior to boarding, I can't recall ever having a round in the chamber of a shotgun, until it became necessary (or apparently so).

For psychological reasons?
No, of course not. For SAFETY reasons.

For home defense, I still do not keep a round loaded.
1) Unlike one of the respondents in one of those links, I do have small children in the home. As well, I DO want to be awake and alert enough to think about what I'm doing, and not be able to squeeze off a round in a stupor. TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING...I can't stress it enough. If you train to load the weapon and release the safety, time and time again, you will do so under stress. You train as you fight, and fight as you train.
2) I want the added safety around others who may incidentally access the weapon.
3) God forbid, the bad guy finds it before I do, I'd prefer that they "think" it's loaded...this may or may not be a rational thought process, but hey, if the case presents itself, I guess I'll take the chance.

This debate could go on an on ad infinitum, but I'll bow out at this point.

To the OP, good luck with your decision, and your decision on being loaded or unloaded, if you chose a shotgun. I hope that some part of all this has assisted you in some small way. As someone else pointed out, what may be good for you, may not be good for the Admiral.

And whatever you decide on, train with it until both of you are comfortable...then train some more

All the best....now back to drooling over trawlers I can't even afford to board


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Old 11-18-2013, 07:07 PM   #50
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I have enough info here to make an educated choice. It will be done next week when I look through this stuff all over again.

Thanks everyone

Oh! I will let you know.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:29 PM   #51
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OD,

Good points. I would add this, in the Navy, I led the Ships Self Defense as Anti-Terrorist Force Protection Duty Officer. We ALWAYS carried Condition One. Round in Chamber, Safety On.

I do so in personal carry and in my Home Weapon.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:31 PM   #52
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Last thoughts would be to go to a range and fire all that you are considering then have your Admiral do the same. Mine has small hands and felt the Walther fit her the best. I can handle a smaller weapon she can't handle a larger one, choice was made based on that specific reason. We keep first 2 rounds frangible then hollow points after that.

Good luck with your selection,
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:55 PM   #53
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5.56 WILL penetrate much more then you think, fact. Not calling anyone out but I have fired 10's of thousands of them. I own 6 rifles in 5.56 and have over 10,000 rounds of my reloads in ammo boxes.


The purpose of the Box O' Truth is to test the penetration of various rounds.

Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to "fragment" when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not.

It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls.

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - Page 1


I have on the boat two Glocks one G23 in .45 ACP for my wife and one G20 in 10mm Auto and a Mossberg 12g Mariner and a Ruger Mini-30 in 7.62X39 in stainless in the locker.

My security is covered.


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Old 11-18-2013, 08:41 PM   #54
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My lady does not like guns. That being said, she likes my Kel-Tec .32ACP as a personal protection weapon- it's small, fits her hand, and carries frangible rounds for decent stopping power.

Me? 9mm and .45 are my weapons of choice. We've considered a shotgun, but haven't moved on it as of yet....
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:44 PM   #55
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5.56 WILL penetrate much more then you think, fact. Not calling anyone out but I have fired 10's of thousands of them. I own 6 rifles in 5.56 and have over 10,000 rounds of my reloads in ammo boxes.

The purpose of the Box O' Truth is to test the penetration of various rounds.

Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to "fragment" when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not.

It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls.

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - Page 1

I have on the boat two Glocks one G23 in .45 ACP for my wife and one G20 in 10mm Auto and a Mossberg 12g Mariner and a Ruger Mini-30 in 7.62X39 in stainless in the locker.

My security is covered.
5.56???? Really dude? 5.56 is a size of the CARTRIDGE and not the BULLET. You can shoot many different Bullet and weights from this cartridge.

I reload my own. If you do as you say, you would also know that several variables like powder charge and case length and barrel twist all contribute to velocity and impact and penetration. XM193 is a Federal built NATO std round that is a Full Metal Jacket Boat tail Copper clad round. APPLES AND ORANGES. I'm talking V MAX do you even know the difference?

Facts are facts. How about trying some?

Thanks.
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Old 11-18-2013, 08:46 PM   #56
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OD,

Good points. I would add this, in the Navy, I led the Ships Self Defense as Anti-Terrorist Force Protection Duty Officer. We ALWAYS carried Condition One. Round in Chamber, Safety On.

I do so in personal carry and in my Home Weapon.
As I mentioned previously, it's all a matter of personal preference, and in your case, training.

I can certainly understand that you would be hot on a military vessel, especially in your position. OTOH, there's no boarding involved, the weapons probably aren't being tossed/handed around as they would be in a patrol car or small boat boarding, and everyone in the area are either good guys or bad guys...not much in the way of "in between"

BTW- Thanks for your service to the country

Take care my friend...

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Old 11-18-2013, 08:53 PM   #57
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Here's a quote from the OP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
This is a gun question on what to buy. Please don't get into gun rights and other political issues or this thread will get killed.

I'm targeting this question to those that already keep guns aboard. I used to keep a handgun with me on camping and boating trips but haven't in a very long time.
This particular weapon would be for self defense only. What I think I need is:
1) Something with as little swinging room needed as possible. The old Kentucky Long Rifle would not work for me on a boat.
2) Easy and non-intimidation for a female to operate - I'm speaking of my wife, not my feminine side.
3) 'Relatively' inexpensive ammo. The more a weapon is used the better it becomes. I'm of 'the most familiar weapon is the best weapon' school. I've known people that could carve you up with a knife well before you even realized you had to defend yourself.
4) Something that would not draw any attention on the boat. Like in, easily stored and easily available.

I know there is no one weapon that will fit all of the categories like a fully automatic shotgun the size of my wallet - which is really small. I'm sure I will think of more stuff. If nothing else, tell me what you have on your boat and why you selected that weapon.

One more very important thing: I will only be cruising in the US so foreign laws will not apply. My cruising will be primarily on the eastern inland waterways.

Again, please keep this non-political. Hopefully, the moderators will bounce the offenders and not the thread.

Thanks in advance.
Coming back to the topic of guns...
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:20 PM   #58
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55gr V MAX in a 5.56 CARTRIDGE loaded at 26.5 grains of WIN 748 at 2.25 COL Won't penetrate beyond the 9mm .45 .40SW and #4 as quoted.

Good luck OP

I'm out of this thread.
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:28 PM   #59
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This thread can remain open for comment as long as the comments are civil and good info is being shared. If it drifts from civility, the Site Team will have no choice but to close it. We'd like to see this stay open to further comment. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:41 PM   #60
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For those interested in revolvers, this gun is a little obscure but very reliable and inexpensive, small and handy. The lowly Charter Arms Bulldog. 23 oz, fits in a hip pocket, and there are light .44 specials that ladies can comfortably shoot.
Available in stainless, w/or w/out hammers and adj sights. Barrels range from 2 1/2 to 4" I think. Nice choice for concealed carry:

Charter DAO Bulldog #74421

Here's one of their little 12 oz, .32 H&R magnum lady's models:

Charter Lavender Lady HR #53240

The guns are wicked looking somehow, and the prices are right.
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