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Old 11-18-2013, 05:08 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Blue Heron View Post
OD has it right with round. 5.56 or .223 is the preferred round because of frangibility.
I certainly like mine

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The shot gun "rack" is a fallacy. Guys intent on boarding have made the decision.
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Originally Posted by angus99 View Post
...(BTW, law enforcement friends tell me the sound of a 12-gauge racking may stop most folks, but don't count on it with a meth-head.)
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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
...Also as has been posted and if not...the sound of a racking shotgun stopping anyone is a myth...it assumes a lot...like right off the bat the person heard it clearly and then even recognizes it....Hollywood stuff...
I'm going to have to disagree in part with the above; however, each have a valid point.

From a real world scenario, not Hollywood but rather a BTDT position if you will, I can attest to the statement that the "rack" of a 12 Ga. pump, will gain the attention of the "average" person up to no good.

The key here is "average."

The OP indicated that he/they will be cruising in localized (if I understood correctly) U.S. Waters. Therefore the threat of attack from Caribbean or 3rd world "pirates" is NIL.

IMO, he's more than likely to encounter the drunken/pissed off recreational boater, or the local criminal in a marina, would we all not agree?

As such, "most" of these people are going to come under the heading of the "average" criminal. The "opportunist" out for a quick score, or professional burglar and thief that does this for a living.

Also consider that we're talking about a boat.
If underway or in a noisy marina, the point made that the intruder may not have heard the "rack" is well taken.

On the flip side, in the middle of the night, in a quiet harbor or marina, especially within the enclosed spaces of most vessels, that "RACK" is going to be dang near ear defining!!

So as mentioned by Blue Heron, the person (I'll say a group) "intent on boarding", will likely already have a contingency plan, superior firepower and numbers, and may not be as quickly dissuaded by the sound (if they even hear it as mentioned).

And Angus is also correct (from personal experience). The person on Meth, Crack, Acid, Heroin, PCP, Angel Dust or a variety of concoctions presently available on todays drug scene, will likely not be thwarted by the "sound" of a shotgun being charged. As a matter of fact, unless the shot placement is "correct", they may not be stopped by the average handgun/rifle round that fails to provide (as I state in training) "immediate cardiovascular and/or neurological dysfunction".

They don't have the common sense or mental capability to realize they're in a world of feces, or the physiological ability to realize they've been shot. An example is, we had a male take 7 .45 rounds in the torso, from approximately 20' to point blank range. The subject lived long enough to attack the now empty officer, wrestle with him and bite him in the face, until he (the suspect) "depressurized" (bled out) from the injuries caused by the rounds, and his body simply "shut down."

The drunk OTOH, will pretty much "get it" right off the bat

So for the shotgun group, I'll still say that it's a pretty decent home/vessel defense weapon for the cruiser community. you generally won't find one when we're out on the 22' Proline CC, simply because of our location, what we're most likely to encounter, and the lack of safe storage space that would still make it quickly accessible. We far too often have have kids/guests on board to take the chance.

However, should one find themselves making that poorly thought out decision to attempt to do harm to the vessel/crew/passengers, they WILL find a well armed, well trained and "dedicated" crew, able and intent on showing them the errs of their ways

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...As for the person who says an AR is a bad platform due "wrestling", has forgot that an AR15 with a collapsible stock is pretty deftly moved around and is ideal to use to prevent hatch entry. I would submit that a 20 inch shot gun barrel Mossberg stand a greater issue for maneuver inside a hull. An AR with Collapsable stock with a 16 inch barrel measure less 34 inches overall length...
I agree that the AR with the collapsible stock, is a fine weapon for securing a vessel and making entry into spaces on board. The same can be true with the shotgun (short barreled-legal length over the counter version) with a pistol grip. Both can and will/do get the job done. The up side to the AR is the lack of recoil, auto loading feature, and larger magazine capacity. The down side is, baring added opticals, you have to be a better shot (

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In the Navy, we use both M4 (Military version of AR) and Shotguns. Both have a place.
Absolutely.

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...One can argue a bazillion different guns and types of ammo...but you really have to say to yourself...what about me, my boat, the biggest threat and how would I deal with it?

Defense has to be a plan and what tools do you need to make it happen?

No one tool is going to make it happen...you have to think where is the threat coming from and what will fit the bill.

While I love a shotgun...reality is that it may be a sledgehammer when all you need is a flyswatter.
Thank you!! Very well stated.

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...A smallish handgun can be carried around, on deck without anyone noticing and hidden under a napkin...long guns aren't going to be quite as "dock/anchorage" friendly.
Very true. Both have their place in on board/UW security.

As ksanders stated:
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The sound of the action working is probably one of the most recognizable sounds in the world.
I still have to stand by this statement.

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I don't see starting a shooting match till someone is trying to board...so long range is out...and as they are onboard..high power isn't really needed.
For the purposes of the OP's question, I'd have to agree.

Not to get too far off into left field, but "If" the OP were considering traversing areas where the likelihood of being boarded by more nefarious types were increased, I'd say definitely have something a bit more "long range" available. Not that it's easy to hit a target underway, much less multiple adversaries attacking from various positions, but a shotgun is a limited range weapon. At least the AR platform "may" provide some distance and time.

Sticking with the OP's concerns, if you can do it, carry a sidearm and a long gun (your choice-rifle or shotgun) for just the reasons mentioned above.

Each has it's place

BTW- these are just my OPINIONS (and we all know about those, right?), based on a lot of time on the road, behind a weapon, conducting training, and a pretty decent number of hours UW.
Everyone has differing opinions, and I respect each of them.

Your results may vary....

All the best...

OD
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:19 AM   #22
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Half-naked man steals boat, rams others at Seattle marina | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News

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Svendsen told police he was afraid the boat thief would kill someone, so he grabbed his shotgun and fired, wounding the suspected thief in the head and hand.

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The thief then got off the boat and onto a dock where medics arrived and took him to Harborview Medical Center. Officials say the 22-year-old man's wounds were not life-threatening and he remains under guard at the hospital until he can be released and booked into the King County Jail.
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No one else was injured in the rampage. The armed citizen was interviewed by officers and released at the scene.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:51 AM   #23
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Short barrel pump shotgun. But I'd go with 20 gauge, not 12, especially for female operators. Less recoil, nearly the same results down range. Will certainly deliver the message!

And, it's not a scarey black rifle.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:52 AM   #24
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My vote is a shot gun too. Its what i use on the boat and in my RV too.

here are the reasons:
1) I use a 'New England Arms' protector. 12ga. Its cheap. Nothing special no wood. No its not a stainless and will rust away and need replaced. But at $225 i won't cry about it. its an 870 knock off so the design is a well tested design.

2) It has an 18.5'' barrel which means it is still technically a 'long gun', which makes it legal in many more places than a hand gun. It is viewed as more of a 'tool' than a weapon.

3) light enough to use but heavy enough that my wife will shoot it.

4) ammo. 12ga ammo is cheap and variety is good. Major consideration is where will your stray shot and/or bullet go? In an boat there is a good chance unless you have a specialty round it is going to go into your dock partner's boat. 12 ga offers a huge variety of rounds. Personally here is how i load mine. the first one is a load literally with pepper. Cyan to be exact. the next two are nonlethal foam buckshot. the next 2 are 00 lead buckshot.

With it loaded like that i can legally prove escalation of force and with the exception of the last 2 rounds will not harm my boat or tear into anothers.
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:56 AM   #25
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2) Easy and non-intimidation for a female to operate - I'm speaking of my wife, not my feminine side.



Recommend you let you wife choose her own. My Admiral is competent in several shooting disciplines and with several platforms... but her preferences became important for this kind of selection.

For example, she does NOT like the sound/feel of a semi-auto or slide-action shotgun, with all those moving part; prefers break-open SxS and O/U doubles. Similarly, she does NOT like the mechanical action of a semi-auto pistol (although she shoots whose quite well); prefers a revolver.

And so forth.

Also recommend you try to rent and actually shoot candidate firearms in advance, see if they live up to expectations.

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Old 11-18-2013, 07:59 AM   #26
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All good points.


Florida doesn't require a defender to prove "escalation of force". A gun is considered loaded if a magazine is in the weapon even if a round is not chambered.

My wife is accurate and able with an EO Tech on the AR.

Florida Castle Doctrine extends to boats..
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:59 AM   #27
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For simplicity and ease of use I would also vote for a revolver in either .38 special or .357 magnum loaded with whatever ammo floats your boat.
Stainless if you can of course.
Any good brand will do, mine is a Ruger speed six in .357 and I added some larger rubber grips to fit my hands better. Wife has a speed six in .38. Whats nice is they both feel operate and shoot the same so we can use either without having to think about it.
We bought them used for fairly cheap so we're not anal about getting them dinged up, plus the actions are nice and smooth from use.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:54 AM   #28
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I really try an stay out of post like these, due to many different opinions on this issue. But in this case I will break my rule and throw my thoughts in.

face it, none of us really want to use any kind of fire arm on a person. But I do see the need to have some kind of fire arm on board in some cases.

In my case, my first line of defence (on the water or at home) are my dogs. They will tell me when something is wrong, or if someone is about. That gives me time to act.

In most cases my dogs will make any unwanted visitor think twice before coming onto my vessel or in my home. But we do have knockheads out there that are dumber than a box of rocks.

If that does not work, my second line of defence in a 12ga 870 wing master pump with a 20" deer slayer and tube extension.

My reason for using the 870 pump is not due to the power of it, but due to the sound it makes as you jacket a round.

That sound is an universal language that any good person or bad person will clearly understand and 9 times out of 10, once they hear that sound they will be butt holes and elbows to get away of it.

This does work in many cases and it has worked one night for my wife when I was away. Some low life broke into our home, our dogs went nuts my wife move our girls into our room and had one call 911, then picked up the 870 and yelled!

"This is what coming your way!" Then jacketed a round! She heard the guy running to get out of our home. The cop picked him up about a block away (Thank God) and he was scared Sh...itless.

My last line of defence is to use the 870. My reasons why it is last. And I do mean last! I hate all the paper work that would go along with using it.

If I did not have an 870 on my vessel or home, my next choice is my M-1911-A1. The slow moving 230gr hard ball round will take anyone off their feet even if they are high on something. If not the second round will for sure.


Happy and safe cruising to you all.

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Old 11-18-2013, 11:07 AM   #29
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:18 AM   #30
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I really appreciate all of the suggestions. I am not normally a gun person but gang initiation seems to be growing in popularity. As I mentioned earlier, I am neither young nor large. Elderly people are becoming very attractive targets. I am not likely to 'carry' and at this point I don't see it being necessary in my area. I just want protection for my home (my boat - I am a live-aboard).
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:31 AM   #31
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I really appreciate all of the suggestions. I am not normally a gun person but gang initiation seems to be growing in popularity. As I mentioned earlier, I am neither young nor large. Elderly people are becoming very attractive targets. I am not likely to 'carry' and at this point I don't see it being necessary in my area. I just want protection for my home (my boat - I am a live-aboard).

Tony B.

I understand you fully. Like you I am not that large of a man and I am starting to slow down with age as we all do.

In your case, I would look at getting a mid-size dog to go with, that is if you like dogs. You may have a dog already I do not know.

Taking a dog with you can be a pain but however they are great fun as well. As time goes on if you have a dog with you and you still feel a might uneasy, then pick up a fire arm if you feel the need.

I really do understand when some knockheads see older folks they see an easy taget, but look at it this way. Those same knockhead see that dog with you they may think twice.

In any case. All the best to you.

Happy cruising to all


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Old 11-18-2013, 11:38 AM   #32
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Just a few supporting statements of "Myth surrounding sound of shotgun racking"...

Firearms, ammo, weapons, gear reviews, 2nd Amendment issues, etc...: Mythbusting: The Racking of a Shotgun

Shotgun Myths | Rem870.com

Shotgun Myths

American Rifleman - 10 Movie Myths Dispelled

Fighting on Empty
With his pump-action shotgun leveled at his former accomplice, the hardened criminal growls, "Where's the gold, Luke?" Holding his hands up shaking his head side to side, the ex-bank robber cries, "I don't know what you're talking about Hank!" With hatred shining in his steely eyes, Hank briskly racks the slide on his shotgun and asks again, "Where's the gold, Luke?!"
That’s right folks, Hank was handling a functionally unloaded gun for the first few minutes of the conversation. Hollywood directors love the psychological effects produced by firearm actions being cycled. Thus shotguns are pumped, hammers are cocked and slides are racked frequently on screen for the audience to see. In fact, this racking action can be so important to the scene that the director will gladly shove characters into potentially dangerous situations with non-functional guns. Who would willingly walk into a gun fight with an empty chamber? According to film logic, having a gun that's ready to fire in the middle of a firefight is highly overrated.
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Old 11-18-2013, 11:41 AM   #33
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Why this all began

What stimulated this thinking is that we have been living on the hard for the last several days. We are the only ones here - literally out in the middle of nowhere about 200 feet from the road. Traffic is very light on this road but there are still cars going by all night. My wife enjoys sitting on the back deck and refers to it as the penthouse in the hood. While we are awake, the lights are on and the TV is going. Kinda like a billboard invitation. If I were to be boarded, no one other than us would know and we are defenseless. I am not obsessed with this and I haven't lost any sleep over it but it was a passing thought.
It's not her that's thinking of a gun, it's me. She would learn to use it and she is the type that would if she had to. I realize that a gun is very dangerous if the owner has any hesitation or qualms about using it.
In addition, I am not the type to show a gun as a sign of force or scare tactic. That in itself can provoke a situation. Trust me on this, if I have to pull the gun out, it will be used. So again, this is strictly self defense.
As a live-aboard, I have never felt the need for a gun. While cruising, anchoring, tying up to sea walls, etc, through parts of the Tx. coast and La., especially the New Orleans area, it would help me sleep better.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:24 PM   #34
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What stimulated this thinking is that we have been living on the hard for the last several days. We are the only ones here - literally out in the middle of nowhere about 200 feet from the road. Traffic is very light on this road but there are still cars going by all night. My wife enjoys sitting on the back deck and refers to it as the penthouse in the hood. While we are awake, the lights are on and the TV is going. Kinda like a billboard invitation. If I were to be boarded, no one other than us would know and we are defenseless. I am not obsessed with this and I haven't lost any sleep over it but it was a passing thought.
It's not her that's thinking of a gun, it's me. She would learn to use it and she is the type that would if she had to. I realize that a gun is very dangerous if the owner has any hesitation or qualms about using it.
In addition, I am not the type to show a gun as a sign of force or scare tactic. That in itself can provoke a situation. Trust me on this, if I have to pull the gun out, it will be used. So again, this is strictly self defense.
As a live-aboard, I have never felt the need for a gun. While cruising, anchoring, tying up to sea walls, etc, through parts of the Tx. coast and La., especially the New Orleans area, it would help me sleep better.

The real trick with boat defense the way I see it is to be able to slow intruders enough for you to gain situational awareness and superiority...especially from a dead (no pun) sleep.

Early alert, slow the intruder and then stop the intruder before final breach is necessary in my mind for successful defense....

Every advantage they gain...is your loss.

The gun is in the final stages of defense ..all other phases of defense need to be worked on as vigorously the way I see it.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:29 PM   #35
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Good discussion. I like the shotgun for home defense. My only concern is that on a boat I sometimes need one hand to move safely/steadily so one hand is left for the gun. My wife doesn't have the wrist strength to maneuver a long arm with one hand. I prefer .45 or .40 but my wife gets tired rather quickly shooting the heavier rounds. She can shoot 9mm all day in a heavy full sized weapon. So for my boat it is a full size semi auto in 9mm.

I hope the poster who mentioned damage to his boat really meant he was concerned about penetration to the point of injuring someone in another compartment. If it gets to shooting, the boat condition is not a consideration.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:35 PM   #36
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This is a gun question on what to buy. Please don't get into gun rights and other political issues or this thread will get killed.

I'm targeting this question to those that already keep guns aboard. I used to keep a handgun with me on camping and boating trips but haven't in a very long time.
This particular weapon would be for self defense only. What I think I need is:
1) Something with as little swinging room needed as possible. The old Kentucky Long Rifle would not work for me on a boat.
2) Easy and non-intimidation for a female to operate - I'm speaking of my wife, not my feminine side.
3) 'Relatively' inexpensive ammo. The more a weapon is used the better it becomes. I'm of 'the most familiar weapon is the best weapon' school. I've known people that could carve you up with a knife well before you even realized you had to defend yourself.
4) Something that would not draw any attention on the boat. Like in, easily stored and easily available.

I know there is no one weapon that will fit all of the categories like a fully automatic shotgun the size of my walley - which is really small. I'm sure I will think of more stuff. If nothing else, tell me what you have on your boat and why you selected that weapon.

One more very important thing: I will only be cruising in the US so foreign laws will not apply. My cruising will be primarily on the eastern inland waterways.

Again, please keep this non-political. Hopefully, the moderators will bounce the offenders and not the thread.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:54 PM   #37
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36 posts and we stayed on topic and non-political. Must be some sort of record!

My choice for shotgun is influenced by my limited experience and background. I've not been exposed much to handguns, but grew up shooting a Remington 870 Wingmaster while trap shooting and pheasant hunting. At 15, I could disassemble it, clean it and reassemble it with ease. Sometimes I just did it for fun. My Dad had a Browning semi-automatic 12 ga that would frequently jam a round. My 870 never skipped a beat.

The Mossberg has such a devout following and has been around so long that there are many aftermarket accessories to customize the gun to one's preference. If this week's boat trip requires a pistol grip and a short barrel and next week's hunt calls for a full stock and longer barrel, no problem.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:13 PM   #38
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...... If it gets to shooting, the boat condition is not a consideration.
Well..Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. LOL
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:22 PM   #39
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I keep swaying back and forth. I like the idea of a shotgun also. based on reading this and some experience with handguns, I think if I could only have one, the hand gun wins. Like mentioned earlier. A shotgun would not be practical if they already boarded and wake you up. Still groggy, trying to navigate through a rocking boat might not be so good. The other choice would be to stand directly behind the door which is not necessarily a good option either. A handgun free's you up with more body maneuverability. So if I just go with one, the hand gun wins. I can see where the shotgun could prevent the boarding in the first place, if you are already aware of someone in the area. Both weapons would be ideal.
Now to decide on which caliber......
Being on the hard is eating me up. I might need the gun and ski mask just to pay the work crew.

The idea of a dog aboard is a great idea, just not for me.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:27 PM   #40
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I made the comment about boat damage and you're correct, I was talking about penetration of a round going outside my boat, into another or compartment.

There is precedence for an AR weapon. It is light weight, easy to operate, low recoil and round won't penetrate.

I suggest some of the posters research ballistic comparison. The results would explain why some choices of weapon are not realistic.
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