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Old 10-05-2015, 10:18 PM   #1
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Grey Whale

Lots of Whales showing up Downtown Vancouver lately. This one was about 30 feet off the beach at English Bay.
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Old 10-06-2015, 12:40 AM   #2
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Cool! Humpback, surely?
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Old 10-06-2015, 01:11 AM   #3
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Cool! Humpback, surely?
I don't know, the news folks said it was a Grey.
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Old 10-06-2015, 08:27 AM   #4
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It certainly looks like a Grey to me. Humpbacks are black (or appear to be so) and have a small dorsal fin.
But yes, Humpbacks especially are everywhere in the area these days.
In four days of cruising last week we saw three pods of Humpbacks, c/w two breeches.
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Old 10-06-2015, 10:16 AM   #5
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Cool. Grey Whales are mud suckers (feed on organisms living in the bottom sediment), as opposed to Humpbacks which feed on free swimming critters...this must mean Vancouver's harbour is relatively clean, or clean enough to allow such organisms to flourish.

We have scads of Humpbacks up here, and some Fin Whales as well. Never seen a Grey Whale though.

Pretty cool that a city the size of Vancouver still gets visits from Killer Whales and Grey Whales
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Old 10-06-2015, 12:26 PM   #6
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It's quit amazing that they exist in a City environment, just shows that if you leave nature alone it will flourish.
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Old 10-06-2015, 03:25 PM   #7
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Since this is in the Off Topic Forum, and dangerously close to the Off The Deep End...are Vancouverites making a connection between how much they love marine wildlife sharing their harbour and Kinder Morgan's expansion which would have 400 diluted bitumen supertankers per year (800 transits) in the same area?
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Old 10-06-2015, 04:22 PM   #8
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Since this is in the Off Topic Forum, and dangerously close to the Off The Deep End...are Vancouverites making a connection between how much they love marine wildlife sharing their harbour and Kinder Morgan's expansion which would have 400 diluted bitumen supertankers per year (800 transits) in the same area?
Here are some stats. Nothing several group yoga sessions can't fix

http://www.portmetrovancouver.com/wp...gation-faq.pdf
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Old 10-06-2015, 07:01 PM   #9
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But...but...but...diluted bitumen is a different beast altogether in that it sinks. Nasty stuff if you're a Grey Whale.
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Old 10-06-2015, 07:09 PM   #10
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But...but...but...diluted bitumen is a different beast altogether in that it sinks.
No it doesn't.

What you read may cause you to believe that, but really, it doesn't.

Lab tests found that if dilbit was mixed with kaolin and agitated, it would sink.

This has been inaccurately truncated in the media to "dilbit sinks."

Dilbit in a pipeline must meet the same criteria as other crude oils. I believe the specific gravity needs to be 0.94. Seawater is greater that 1. Like 1.03.

So an accurate statement would be that dilbit floats, but when mixed with solids which increase its specific gravity to that which is greater than the water it is floating in, it will sink.
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Old 10-06-2015, 07:28 PM   #11
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How dare you allow chemistry to trump junk science.
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Old 10-06-2015, 07:49 PM   #12
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With the low cost of today's oil, I doubt the KM plan is going ahead anytime soon. Also, it would probably take another 20-30 years to come to terms with all the different aboriginal entities involved.
I would worry about this more ...
What Earth would look like if the ice melted - Business Insider
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:19 PM   #13
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How dare you allow chemistry to trump junk science.
It's not really junk science, it's how the media distorts truths and promotes fear.

Murray and I are on opposite ends of the pipeline approvals, both figuratively and literally. I also know that Murray is generally well researched and can make compelling arguments.

Thus just isn't one if them.

A dilbit spill in the Skeena and a dilbit spill in the Pacific, are both bad scenarios, with different mitigations.

The question at a personal level is views about technology, corporate ethics, reliability of systems, government competency, and economic benefits, micro and macro.
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:36 PM   #14
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Okay...my bad.

Diluted bitumen is a mixture of bitumen (heavy, molasses like, and sticky) and a lighter diluent (basically naphtha) that thins it enough so it can flow through a pipeline.

When first spilled the diluted bitumen doesn't sink, but after a day or so the diluent evaporates off and the rest, the bitumen, sinks to the bottom. Like in the Kalamazoo River where they're still finding it on the bottom.
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:24 PM   #15
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The following little tidbit is from that granola munching yoga posing radical environmental group, Concerned Professional Engineers;

"What is not mentioned in the report, however, is the fact that the water in Douglas Channel cannot be assumed to be "fully salt" as there are often layers of less dense fresh water floating on top of the more dense salt water. If weathered bitumen is heavy enough to sink through fresh water, and a layer of fresh water sits on top of the salt water in Douglas Channel, the weathered bitumen could sink below the surface and remain trapped at the boundary between the fresh and salt water layers."

Full paper here;

http://concernedengineers.org/wp-con...cleaned-up.pdf

We've seen seagulls taking freshwater baths in mid channel here because of the huge amounts of fresh water flowing from surrounding mountains and valleys. Even if bitumen doesn't sink in salt water, how do you contain and clean up a spill moving at three knots and is hovering between salt and fresh water layers about a metre below the surface?

Another example; when we sea kayaked from Kitimat to Bella Bella (late October to mid December) we didn't see salt on our decks until we were past Klemtu and into Milbanke Sound, making any study of bitumen in salt water pretty much moot.
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:06 AM   #16
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Read that years ago.

Note that they are not against shipping dilbit. IIRC, they recently recommended Roberts Point as a terminus, instead if Burrard Inlet.

From a risk mitigation sense, it makes sense to me too.
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:34 AM   #17
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Read that years ago.

Note that they are not against shipping dilbit. IIRC, they recently recommended Roberts Point as a terminus, instead if Burrard Inlet.

From a risk mitigation sense, it makes sense to me too.
Did you know the Canadian government had a multimillion dollar advertising campaign in Washington DC informing the US that they should approve the Keystone XL pipeline because it would provide 10's of thousands of refining and spin off jobs? What about at least upgrading or refining it here? I'm not against using the stuff myself (love diesel in the boat & all) but shipping raw bitumen is like shipping raw logs, Tar Sands style.

My problem isn't necessarily the product itself, it's that we're shipping jobs overseas. Other concerns are geohazards compounded by extreme weather events in the Coast Range, and the two 'Z' turns through narrow channels between Hecate Strait and Douglas Channel. This is the wrong place for such a project.

Agree with you that Burrard Inlet is not a good location.
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Old 10-07-2015, 10:58 AM   #18
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Did you know the Canadian government had a multimillion dollar advertising campaign in Washington DC informing the US that they should approve the Keystone XL pipeline because it would provide 10's of thousands of refining and spin off jobs? What about at least upgrading or refining it here? I'm not against using the stuff myself (love diesel in the boat & all) but shipping raw bitumen is like shipping raw logs, Tar Sands style.

My problem isn't necessarily the product itself, it's that we're shipping jobs overseas.
Activists (and journalists, it seems) like to conveniently group everything under the banner of Big Oil. I suppose this is to make the target big enough that anything they throw at it will hit. In reality, the oil patch consists or Upstream, Midstream, Downstream sectors which is quite fractionated by multiple companies. Upstream, gets the hydrocarbons out of the ground. Midstream stores and transfers products, Downstream processes the hydrocarbons into various products for sale by end users. The integration of streams in one company is rare, if even existent. Historically, refining capacity is slightly more than product demand.

Iíll try this analogy out for you...

Farmers grow grain. They are upstream. The deliver it to elevators who elevate, clean, store and transport it by rail, trucks and ships. This is midstream. The grain is milled into flour, and another company may make bread out of to eat. This is downstream.

Why isnít more bread made in Canada? Where is the outrage at the farmers for not building more bakeries? Because a.) Farmers donít make bread. b.) Bakeries are capital intensive. Neither farmers, nor railroads, nor elevator companies want to employ the capital to build a bakery, as it is not their core specialty, and the demand is already met. c.) Even a farmer, CN Rail, or Richardson International did build a giant bakery for bread export, a new supply chain infrastructure would have to be created to get it to the end user.

I`m not saying this can't happen. Cargill is a company that is integrated through the food chain, and has fantastically deep pockets. But if the motivation is not there, why would they?

Same goes for refinery.

I just made this analogy up. Poke holes in it. I want to use it in discussion with my left leaning Brother in Law farmer.

PS: I like whales. I heard they were in the area on Monday, so I was looking for them on my flight from Vancouver back home the other day, but alas, it is getting dark too soon these shortening days.
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Old 10-07-2015, 11:32 AM   #19
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In contradictory news ...

Investors wager a higher bid coming for Canadian Oil Sands - The Globe and Mail
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Old 10-07-2015, 03:20 PM   #20
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Activists (and journalists, it seems) like to conveniently group everything under the banner of Big Oil. I suppose this is to make the target big enough that anything they throw at it will hit. In reality, the oil patch consists or Upstream, Midstream, Downstream sectors which is quite fractionated by multiple companies. Upstream, gets the hydrocarbons out of the ground. Midstream stores and transfers products, Downstream processes the hydrocarbons into various products for sale by end users. The integration of streams in one company is rare, if even existent. Historically, refining capacity is slightly more than product demand.

Iíll try this analogy out for you...

Farmers grow grain. They are upstream. The deliver it to elevators who elevate, clean, store and transport it by rail, trucks and ships. This is midstream. The grain is milled into flour, and another company may make bread out of to eat. This is downstream.
That makes sense, but you are looking at it from the inside and are probably pretty happy (and well paid) with things as they stand right now. I'm looking at it from the outside, and see yet another raw product getting ripped & shipped out of the country.

The US has laws that will not allow the export of unprocessed petroleum products...they even had to tweak the law to allow the export of Canadian raw bitumen out of US ports.

We could be doing more, make it last longer, and increase the benefits to more Canadians if we didn't give those jobs away.

How much money does Norway have in the bank, and how far in debt is Alberta?
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