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Old 01-16-2013, 10:06 PM   #1
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FAA grounds 787

In the wake of 2 Japanese airlines voluntarily grounding theirs and the fact that their are only 6 operating in the USA(All by UAL), it sounds like it was an easy decision. They used the term "Temporarily grounding"....whatever that means.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:14 PM   #2
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A few years ago we were having a spirited debate on TF regarding the 787. One of the issues that came up was regarding an electrical panel fire which delayed the introdcution of the 787 for a period of time. Any connection between that early electric fire incident and the current? I am sure the FAA has the same question.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:57 PM   #3
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The eletrical fire during testing had nothing to do with the design or function of the plane's electrical system. The culprit turned out to be metal drill and fabrication shavings that were not cleaned out of the electrical cabinet after its manufacture by the company that makes it (not Boeing). This FOD eventually found its way into a positon to cause a short and the resulting fire.

According to the information released to date the current issue apparently has to do with the lithium batteries that are used in the plane. What the problem is and why it has surfaced now after so long remains to be seen.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:15 PM   #4
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For anyone interested there is a pretty good article in today's Seattle Times related to the 787 situation about lithium batteries and why they are superior as batteries but pose some challenges in design and manufacturing.

http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...lainerxml.html
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:41 PM   #5
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Boeing isn't the only Seattle institution with Li battery problems. It is tough working on the frontiers of technology.

Battery-related fire damages famed hybrid tug, puts it out of service - Professional Mariner - December/January 2013
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:50 AM   #6
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MY vote is for Ni Cads , as plan B.

When ever the LI tech becomes useable , the switch back could save a few pounds.

Ni Cads (enough of them ) have plenty of juice , we used to start the engines on the Caravelle with no APU , just the batts!

The best part was IF the engine was started from ground power , the charged batts were strong enough to power many requirements for longer than many hops.

Dual generator failure in flight ,,,, What me worry?
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:25 PM   #7
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FF--- Comparing the electrical requirements of a Jurrasic era Caravelle with the requirements on today's commercial jets is laughable. You would not believe the amount of power today's planes require, particularly the 787 which is for all practical purposes, an all-electric airplane. Even the brakes are electric.

And here's one for you--- what do you think is the single most complex, heavy (not counting the engines), power-hungry, and trouble-prone system on a modern commercial jetliner?
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:09 PM   #8
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Greetings,
Mr Marin. "what do you think is the single most complex, heavy (not counting the engines), power-hungry, and trouble-prone system on a modern commercial jetliner?" Um, overweight flight attendants?
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
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And here's one for you--- what do you think is the single most complex, heavy (not counting the engines), power-hungry, and trouble-prone system on a modern commercial jetliner?
The feeding and comfort of passengers, and the waste they produce.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:12 PM   #10
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The feeding and comfort of passengers, and the waste they produce.
No. I'm not talking about an activity, I mean an actual system--- wires, pipes, ducts, computers, etc. type of system. A system designed to do a specific thing. Which one is the most complex on a modern jetliner?
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:45 PM   #11
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Greetings,
Mr. Marin. Am I perceiving a tone that suggests to me that this system is somewhat inane? Hmmm....Entertainment system? Air circulation system?
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:24 PM   #12
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RTF--- The first half of your guess is correct. I've been told by our flightline guys that the IFE system on a plane like the 777 many times surpasses in complexity any other system on the plane. And it's heavy, too, what with all the wiring, control boxes for each seat, etc., etc., etc.

The components aren't as clunky as they were just a few years ago and digital technology is reducing the component count, but it is still staggeringly complex. And it can be very troublesome and frustrating to fix, too.

We recently flew from Dubai to Seattle on Emirates, a 777-200LR, our newest 777 model. Emirate's IFE system has over 1,000 movies, as many TV shows, documentaries, and news selections, tons of interactive games, dozens of music channels, a duty-free shopping channel, plus phone and other kinds of connectivity with the associated credit card payment capability. All of it on-demand and available at every seat on the plane.

It makes the plane's flight control system look like two tin cans and a string in terms of complexity.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:32 PM   #13
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With regards to the topic of this thread it was in the paper yesterday that the two Yuasa lithium batteries involved in the 787 incidents were just 30 numbers apart in serial number. While this on its own answers nothing it does give some weight to the possibility that the cause of the problem may have originated in the manufacture of the batteries themselves.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:50 PM   #14
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Marin, Did they ground the Dream Lifters as well?
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:18 PM   #15
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Marin, Did they ground the Dream Lifters as well?
The Dreamlifters are ancient 747s cut up to be what they are. Their batteries are 1980s technology. Production of the 787 has not been shut down.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:49 PM   #16
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Marin, I guess I'm confused. Did they make some 787 cargo planes with a big oversized cabin? Or maybe you told me they used the Dream Lifter to move some 787 parts around.
I know we talked about this before but I can't remember what was said. Damn that CRS!
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:35 AM   #17
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Marin, I guess I'm confused. Did they make some 787 cargo planes with a big oversized cabin? Or maybe you told me they used the Dream Lifter to move some 787 parts around.
I know we talked about this before but I can't remember what was said. Damn that CRS!
The Dreamlifters are old 747-400s that were sawed up at Evergreen in Taiwan and a huge bubble body installed where the passenger cabin used to be. The aft fuselage was cut and hinged and swings open for loading and unloading.

There are currently four Dreamlifters (or maybe five by now) that are used to fly the individual fuselage sections from their manufactures in Japan, Italy, and Wichita, first to Charleston where they are joined along with the two fuselage sections that are manufactured in Charleston into major fuselage sections and then these are flown to Everett for final assembly. The major fuselage sections that will be final assembled into a completed airplane in Charleston simply stay there.

The Dreamlifters also fly the completed wing pairs from their manufacturing plant in Japan to the final assembly lines in Everett and Charleston.

Only the forward section of the Dreamlifter is pressurized.
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:53 AM   #18
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That's the plane I was thinking of. I've seen them at MIA a couple of times.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:22 AM   #19
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They are operated by Atlas Air and I believe they have a base in Miami. So the Dreamlifters may go there periodically for maintenance and whatnot.
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:27 AM   #20
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I've been told by our flightline guys that the IFE system on a plane like the 777 many times surpasses in complexity any other system on the plane. And it's heavy, too, what with all the wiring, control boxes for each seat, etc., etc., etc.

Sure was easier going back and fixing the broken film on the DC 8 in flight movie entertainment system.

Sounds like the batteries are monsters just to start the APU.

OF course the APU is probably bigger than the engine on the old Caravelle.

LI batt require a hugely complex charging system , or a fire can result.

Sounds like both Chevvy DOLT and big B need a plan B.
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