FAA grounds 787

[Marin]

Didn't say they didn't pose some risks that have to be dealt with properly. Crossing the street poses some risks that have to be dealt with properly. But Lithium Ion is the way of the future (until something better comes along). The batteries that power our production equipment are far, far larger than a D-cell, and they have been totally trouble free for the many years we've been using them.

And like all new technologies, there is a learning curve and a period of finding problems and solving them with Lithium Ion. We learned a hell of a lot with the 787 batteries and future batteries will be that much better and more reliable because of it.

If we listened to the naysayers we'd all still be riding steam trains and having guys with flags walk in front of our horesless carriages to warn people we were coming. Progress is taking risks, having things fail sometimes, learning what happened, coming up with a fix, and moving on to the next thing.

 

[SomeSailor]

Yeah. Most people haven't seen the problems a rotor burst, brake fire, pack compressor fire, starter / generator seizure, bird strike, decompression or other can cause ya.

 

[Marin]

We had a bird strike on the #1 engine on a carrier's 747 on takeoff out of Germany a few years ago. I later saw what it did to the engine. The damage was awsome. Fire (put out), emergency declaration, dumped fuel, fire trucks, the whole bit.

Lotta lotta things can go wrong when you play with technology. Battery issues are pretty minor compared to all the other stuff that's happened in aviation development over the decades and will continue to happen as technology moves forward.

 

[FF]

"Battery issues are pretty minor compared to all the other stuff that's happened in aviation development over the decades and will continue to happen as technology moves forward"

Sorta depends on how big the battery fire is.

Bird strikes are with aircraft since the Wright brothers.

Engine out,, (fire, failure or separation) is part of "You bet your job" every 6 months for most drivers.

A fire with no way to put it out would be a far bigger concern .

Tho the loss of electric on an all electric plane might trump the fire !!

 

[SomeSailor]

It probably helps to explain why we have LiPos on the 787 to begin with. They're small which is a nice attribute, but most importantly they can provide large current capacities to sustain electrical power during transients and while starting the APU and engines.

Using conventional power would give you much less safety margin. The ramifications of a fire that can be contained and extinguished aren't what you're describing. I believe the fault of the design Boeing had in place was more about it's ability to stabilize, control and contain a battery thermal event.

 

[O C Diver]

My previous post wasn't written for this thread but for putting lithium ion batteries in boats. I happen to be a big fan of the smaller Lithium rechargeable batteries such as what are in my cell phone. The point relative to the 787 was that there have been fires that have garnered a lot of media attention in an industry that supposedly builds to a much higher safety standard. I personally use a fair amount of lithium rechargeables for scuba diving: canister dive lights, video lights, and underwater diver propulsion vehicles tend to have big multiple cell packs. In the relatively short history of lithium rechargeables in diving, there have been atleat 6 (most are kept quite) fires of lithium packs being recharged. These are multi cell packs with protective circuit boards and smart lithium chargers. We tend to accept the risk because the size and weight of the batteries for diving is such a huge advantage. IMO, rechargeable lithiums in boat applications where weight isn't a big factor is like putting Hydrogen instead of Helium in your Zeppelin. Yes it works, but is it really worth the added risk?

Ted

 

[SomeSailor]

This thread was split and parts moved over to the 787 LiPo thread that is ongoing.

You're 100% correct about a boat not needing that sort of amperage, or the risks associated with it. Golf cart batteries are perfect for boats.

 

[sunchaser]

Good news - the 787 is now legal again. Congrats to all the hard working Boeing hands responsible for making the fix. Condolences to those from Japan and France who created the problem and are now in the soup line.

 

[SomeSailor]

Yeah... but we have a safer battery now. Life is good.

 

[Marin]

We've been covering the development of the improved battery and shot the installation of one the other day. The people on the various battery teams that we have met and worked with are very, very impressive in their attitude, knowledge, dedication, and determination to find solutions. It's what the folks in aviation have been doing since 1903.

 

[LaBomba]

If we listened to the naysayers we'd all still be riding steam trains

Way off topic but actually there are still a lot of steam trains being built and used in Britain and many parts of Europe and they are fast and efficient. Take a peak. I love steam but I'm old.

71000 "Duke Of Gloucester" At Full Power - YouTube

 

[Marin]

The "new" steam engines like the one in the video are simply recreations of "old" steam engines. They do not represent any sort of advance in steam technology, they are simply replicas of engines that have long disappeared for all the reasons that they should have disappeared.

 

[FF]

"they are simply replicas of engines that have long disappeared for all the reasons that they should have disappeared."

Lots of tech makes comebacks , an external combustion engine does not require refined fuel as most diesels .

As this regime attempts to shut down fossil fuels , and force sustainable mud huts on us , at least the trains will run for a while ,with deconstructed "old style" wooden house lumber.

 

[sunchaser]

Steam turbines are alive and well in the power plant business. Virtually all of the plug in hybrid cars rely upon steam to replenish their ready kilowatts, not to mention the rest of society's needs - excluding those who get a few very costly kilowatts from wind generators made in China.

 

[Codger2]

Virtually all of the plug in hybrid cars rely upon steam to replenish their ready kilowatts,.....

 

[sunchaser]

Follow the wall plug to its source, the Tesla style journey will likely end up at a coal, gas, or nuclear steam turbine - again excepting the small % of ready kilowatts generated by hydro or wind farms.

 

[Codger2]

Follow the wall plug to its source, the Tesla style journey will likely end up at a coal, gas, or nuclear steam turbine - again excepting the small % of ready kilowatts generated by hydro or wind farms.

...but, Tom...applying the same logic, where does the power to run a petroleum refinery come from?

 

[Marin]

I'm not saying that steam is not a viable source of power. I'm saying that a 1930's style steam railroad locomotive: pistons and rods--- which is what got us onto this subject in the first place--- is no longer a viable source of power. If it was, the railroads would still be using them. They aren't and for good reason. Outside of a quaint tourist and steam enthusiast (of which I am one) attraction, they are about as useful as a dodo.

The Chinese were perhaps the last folks on the planet to use steam locomotives in commercial mainline service. The country was so embarrased to still have them that they would flatly deny that they did. We have a wonderful piece of film on which a Chinese official is stating on camera that the last steam locomotives in China were retired "many years ago" as one chugs by in the background hauling a freight train.

I believe today they are, in fact, all gone and cut up. But I remember thinking when they still had some that the they were really missing a bet. They could have kept them going and promoted them as a tourist/railfan attraction. Big bucks in that sort of thing because people will come from all over the world to see and ride behind them, just as they do in Europe, the UK, etc.

I have arranged for a one-on-one course in the UK to become a "qualified" steam locomotive driver (which will not mean that I am qualified to actually drive it on a mainline, only that I will know how to). Major coin involved in this. The Chinese should have cashed in on this sort of thing while they still had the chance.

 

[sunchaser]

...but, Tom...applying the same logic, where does the power to run a petroleum refinery come from?

It depends on the country and age of the refinery. My experience in the US is gas powered steam turbines at the refinery sometimes combined with hydrogen reforming/cogen to satisfy in-plant power needs, with some electricity sold off site through the connected grid. Refineries are indeed power generators, but with incoming line power to start and stop the process.