Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-23-2013, 10:22 PM   #201
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
Ignorance you say Marin, maybe but the facts are well known in the business world. Condit and Stonecipher left Boeing as CEOs in some degree of disgrace with Mulally (well thought of internally and the right creds) the apparent correct internal candidate. McNerney had been passed over at GE to eventually land at Boeing - a financial guy lacking an engineering background. Seven years ago, in comes McNerney and out goes Mulally.

The question is - did McNerney call Mulally for Li battery help as he did the CEOs of GE and GM?
__________________
Advertisement

sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2013, 10:44 PM   #202
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Seven years ago, in comes McNerney and out goes Mulally.
Sorry dude, but your "well known facts" about Mulally's move to Ford could not be more wrong. I happen to know why he made the change because he told me.

Continue to believe your "business world" sources if you like. In this case, I know they are every bit as clueless as you continue to be.
__________________

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 06:23 AM   #203
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,530
MY GUESS is Boeing will use batteries made just slightly differently.

Thicker insulation in the cells to stop the dendrites from shorting out the cell , and starting the melt down/fires.

Maybe an extra pound of insulation , shouldn't hurt the range much.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2013, 09:08 AM   #204
Guru
 
SomeSailor's Avatar
 
City: Everett, WA
Vessel Name: Honey Badger
Vessel Model: 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 784
Don't get the terminology wrong though. Dendrites are fibrous crystals that form IN the cell. The solution that Boeing is proposing involves a better separation of the cells and a ceramic insulator between the eight cells in the inverter. The design of the battery itself remains the same. There is reportedly a redesign of the inverter case to better contain the heat and gases in the event of a failure as well.
SomeSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2013, 10:56 AM   #205
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
The recent FAA/NTSB reports do not look helpful for quick resolution of the 787 Li battery/system failures. They are talking about "hearings " scheduled for next month, uh oh. Hopefully there is someone in Boeing with suitable clout that will get this issue beyond the forest vs trees and out of the clutches of the regulators. Tick tock ------------
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 09:29 PM   #206
Senior Member
 
jukesy's Avatar
 
City: Victoria BC
Vessel Name: LUCKY US
Vessel Model: American Tug
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 268
Isn't this the reason the new fleet of boeing's have been grounded???

Just say'n
jukesy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 09:52 PM   #207
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by jukesy View Post
Isn't this the reason the new fleet of boeing's have been grounded???

Just say'n
You should start a thread on that.
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 10:07 PM   #208
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by jukesy View Post
Isn't this the reason the new fleet of boeing's have been grounded???

Just say'n
The issue was with the Yuasa battery used in the 787, not with Lithium Ion batteries in general.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 10:26 PM   #209
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
We've taken these things all over the world for years and never had a problem with them at all. They need to be designed correctly, they need to be made correctly, and they need to be controlled correctly but this notion that there's some sort of evil bugaboo about Lithium Ion batteries is uninformed at best and ignorant at worst.
Marin you need to do some research before posting stuff like this.

99% of the Lithium Ion batteries in the world are smaller than a "D" size battery and pose very little risk. However, when you get to the larger sizes, high energy density models, and battery pack made of dozens to hundreds of cells, the failure rate and fire risk is very significant. An internal short of a cell that isn't even connected to a charging device can start a fire in some cases.

I'm sure you have seen this: Boeing 787 Lithium Battery Fire

Article covers some of the elevated risks of Lithium Batteries.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 11:10 PM   #210
Guru
 
SomeSailor's Avatar
 
City: Everett, WA
Vessel Name: Honey Badger
Vessel Model: 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Marin you need to do some research before posting stuff like this.

99% of the Lithium Ion batteries in the world are smaller than a "D" size battery and pose very little risk.
That's contrary to the likelihood that Lithium Ion batteries were the root cause behind the loss of UPS6 in Dubai a few years back.

Lithium Ion battery thermal runaways are a very real possibility, but with the right protection and monitoring in place they can be safely implemented (and contained in an event)
SomeSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 11:12 PM   #211
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Didn't say they didn't pose some risks that have to be dealt with properly. Crossing the street poses some risks that have to be dealt with properly. But Lithium Ion is the way of the future (until something better comes along). The batteries that power our production equipment are far, far larger than a D-cell, and they have been totally trouble free for the many years we've been using them.

And like all new technologies, there is a learning curve and a period of finding problems and solving them with Lithium Ion. We learned a hell of a lot with the 787 batteries and future batteries will be that much better and more reliable because of it.

If we listened to the naysayers we'd all still be riding steam trains and having guys with flags walk in front of our horesless carriages to warn people we were coming. Progress is taking risks, having things fail sometimes, learning what happened, coming up with a fix, and moving on to the next thing.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2013, 11:22 PM   #212
Guru
 
SomeSailor's Avatar
 
City: Everett, WA
Vessel Name: Honey Badger
Vessel Model: 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 784
Yeah. Most people haven't seen the problems a rotor burst, brake fire, pack compressor fire, starter / generator seizure, bird strike, decompression or other can cause ya.
SomeSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 12:34 AM   #213
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
We had a bird strike on the #1 engine on a carrier's 747 on takeoff out of Germany a few years ago. I later saw what it did to the engine. The damage was awsome. Fire (put out), emergency declaration, dumped fuel, fire trucks, the whole bit.

Lotta lotta things can go wrong when you play with technology. Battery issues are pretty minor compared to all the other stuff that's happened in aviation development over the decades and will continue to happen as technology moves forward.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 07:04 AM   #214
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,530
"Battery issues are pretty minor compared to all the other stuff that's happened in aviation development over the decades and will continue to happen as technology moves forward"

Sorta depends on how big the battery fire is.

Bird strikes are with aircraft since the Wright brothers.

Engine out,, (fire, failure or separation) is part of "You bet your job" every 6 months for most drivers.

A fire with no way to put it out would be a far bigger concern .

Tho the loss of electric on an all electric plane might trump the fire !!
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 08:45 AM   #215
Guru
 
SomeSailor's Avatar
 
City: Everett, WA
Vessel Name: Honey Badger
Vessel Model: 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 784
It probably helps to explain why we have LiPos on the 787 to begin with. They're small which is a nice attribute, but most importantly they can provide large current capacities to sustain electrical power during transients and while starting the APU and engines.

Using conventional power would give you much less safety margin. The ramifications of a fire that can be contained and extinguished aren't what you're describing. I believe the fault of the design Boeing had in place was more about it's ability to stabilize, control and contain a battery thermal event.
SomeSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 08:49 AM   #216
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,817
My previous post wasn't written for this thread but for putting lithium ion batteries in boats. I happen to be a big fan of the smaller Lithium rechargeable batteries such as what are in my cell phone. The point relative to the 787 was that there have been fires that have garnered a lot of media attention in an industry that supposedly builds to a much higher safety standard. I personally use a fair amount of lithium rechargeables for scuba diving: canister dive lights, video lights, and underwater diver propulsion vehicles tend to have big multiple cell packs. In the relatively short history of lithium rechargeables in diving, there have been atleat 6 (most are kept quite) fires of lithium packs being recharged. These are multi cell packs with protective circuit boards and smart lithium chargers. We tend to accept the risk because the size and weight of the batteries for diving is such a huge advantage. IMO, rechargeable lithiums in boat applications where weight isn't a big factor is like putting Hydrogen instead of Helium in your Zeppelin. Yes it works, but is it really worth the added risk?

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2013, 09:52 AM   #217
Guru
 
SomeSailor's Avatar
 
City: Everett, WA
Vessel Name: Honey Badger
Vessel Model: 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 784
This thread was split and parts moved over to the 787 LiPo thread that is ongoing.

You're 100% correct about a boat not needing that sort of amperage, or the risks associated with it. Golf cart batteries are perfect for boats.
SomeSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 04:06 PM   #218
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
Good news - the 787 is now legal again. Congrats to all the hard working Boeing hands responsible for making the fix. Condolences to those from Japan and France who created the problem and are now in the soup line.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 04:12 PM   #219
Guru
 
SomeSailor's Avatar
 
City: Everett, WA
Vessel Name: Honey Badger
Vessel Model: 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 784
Yeah... but we have a safer battery now. Life is good.
SomeSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 07:25 PM   #220
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
We've been covering the development of the improved battery and shot the installation of one the other day. The people on the various battery teams that we have met and worked with are very, very impressive in their attitude, knowledge, dedication, and determination to find solutions. It's what the folks in aviation have been doing since 1903.
__________________

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012