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Old 12-18-2012, 11:54 AM   #41
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Mr. 45. I'm obviously not going to change your mind and it is not my intent to do so completely. I am only suggesting that the bleak picture painted by the western press may not be all that bad. Don't forget the Chinese are COMMIES and even though today's "bad guys" are the Muslims there is still a lingering enemy-i-sation (OK, I made up that word...) of yesterdays "bad guys". The anecdotal information you received from your PhD colleagues most likely wasn't too much off the mark but consider this: If one of your sources did NOT work for 84 hours a week there were probably 100 qualified people in line for their jobs who would. Slavery? Possibly but those workers appreciated the value of their positions and were willing to go above and beyond the keep same. I suspect you are basing your views somewhat on the recent reports of the workers in the I pad factory and if so, you're absolutely correct but conditions on ONE factory are probably NOT indicative of ALL working conditions in China.
Workers in Chinese Apple factories forced to sign pledges not to commit suicide | Mail Online
You should also consider the Chines attitude to money. Whereas western capitalists are greedy indeed, Chinese "capitalists" are RABID. Remember lead paint in toys and melamine in dairy products? All for profit.
The work ethic I am referring to is not wage based but attitude based. More recently, during and after WWII, the American worker took pride in his/her work and there was nothing that couldn't be accomplished. Nowadays, from my perspective, I am seeing more and more "Aw, that's good enough" and "Not my problem" in the workplace. I still run into those folks who take real pride in their work but the numbers are dwindling.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:04 PM   #42
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A 4-5 Star Western Style Hotel as you sight cost $85 a night US in Beijing. So at the $300 a month you quote that is 28% of ones wage. Outrageous to be sure. But here in the US such a hotel will be above $350 a night and at minimum wage of $8 that is 27%. And the difference is??? So for the people that work at jobs for $8 an hour in this country are considered slaves. Really?

My information is from just being there. Staying in that hotel. I'm not saying I would live there either but to the major part of the country things are getting better than they had it just a few years ago. I'm not sure who told you there are areas that Westerners are not allowed in but I didn't see any. The Bullet train went right through some very rural parts of the country and it stopped four times while I was on it. Some place were remote. But no one would have stopped me from getting off of the train if I wanted.

As far as the PhDs from there sure they want out. $1,200 a month there vs $10k here. They are use to living on the $14k a year and they will live here on $25k a year and save the $45k remaining.
interesting way of looking at wages. I will not get into a definition of slavery as that isnt the thread topic but i will say that if you think about your statement in depth u may begin to see similarities to slavery become evident. They make every effort to present themselves as a "free" country but the next time u r there try asking any citizen questions on his goverment and see what response you get. I cant get them to say anything on that topic here in the states. I have never been there, but a friend has been bugging me to go over with her and visit her family so i likely will in the future.
They get more like $70,000 to $110,000 working for us.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:56 PM   #43
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They get more like $70,000 to $110,000 working for us.
So do some of the PhDs that are from here. It depends what the PhD is in. Anymore a BS degree is almost useless and it takes a Masters to get promoted even at the high school level. A PhD in some disciplines is worth a lot more then others. Of course it is much more difficult to get than some others. And this is meant in no way to be demeaning to anyone in any shape or form it is just the facts and you can draw or jump to your own conclusions. As an example. A person does the required time to get a PhD in say History. Any history, World, US European. The day they get the degree they can be hired as a teacher or what ever and paid consummate to that starting degree. So 4-5 year under graduate and then a couple of more of more years and they are a PhD and getting pad as such in that field. Now let's take the sciences, such as Nuclear Biologist or Immunologist. The same 4-5 years undergrad, then most of the time 3-5 years before you are allowed to defend your Thesis but wait there is more, it isn't over yet, once you have that Sheepskin that says PhD on it you will have to do a Fellowship at some institution for the next 4 or more years at which time you will have had to author , not co-author, at least two or three papers that are published in Medical or Scientific Journals. Now with that done you may or may not get a job with pay consummate to your PhD status. It will depend on several things. Such as where your PhD came form and even more importantly where did you do your Post Doc. Also which journals were your papers published in and how prestiges are those journals. So add up the differences. PhD in History, Literature, Social Studies.... we have a total of 6- 8 years. In the sciences 11-14 years and if you want the real money the Post Doc better have been at Stanford, Duke, Harvard or the like. Which afford you the access to being published in the better journals. So you see even for the ones that are here they all don't get the big bucks.

The Chinese that are here have that work ethic that was mentioned before and it shows here every day. It also shows there in China as well. To be fair there are a lot of other countries that instill that same work ethic. Korea, India, Japan and several other Asian Countries come to mind.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:12 PM   #44
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So The Chinese that are here have that work ethic that was mentioned before and it shows here every day. It also shows there in China as well. To be fair there are a lot of other countries that instill that same work ethic. Korea, India, Japan and several other Asian Countries come to mind.
Yes u are right. You are wrong as to the use of the term, work ethic. The people of each nation in your list will have different motivating factors mostly derived from the basic necessities of life like food shelter etc. These motivating factors may in fact give outsiders the impression of a similiar work ethic judging from the results but that cannot be the case for those countries anymore than it can be for the USA and Canada. In the USA at one time we had workers that would work 24/7 in need be to make widgets and you seem sad that those days are gone. Those days were before the emancipation proclamation.
Would you realy like to see our country go back to that way of doing business?
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:23 PM   #45
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Greetings,
Work ethic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What is work ethic? definition and meaning
work ethic - definition of work ethic by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
I use the term as defined.
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:39 PM   #46
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...thanks....the definition says what i said in less words. I guess i aint a two word guy when fifty would work better. I did mention that the motivating factors would be diferent in each geographical location
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Old 12-18-2012, 04:41 PM   #47
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Yes u are right. You are wrong as to the use of the term, work ethic. The people of each nation in your list will have different motivating factors mostly derived from the basic necessities of life like food shelter etc. These motivating factors may in fact give outsiders the impression of a similar work ethic judging from the results but that cannot be the case for those countries anymore than it can be for the USA and Canada. In the USA at one time we had workers that would work 24/7 in need be to make widgets and you seem sad that those days are gone. Those days were before the emancipation proclamation.
Would you realy like to see our country go back to that way of doing business?
So wrong I may be but what do you call it when in the 80's while living in Texas the Mexican roofers were at the sub division at sun up and worked on the roof of the houses until seven or eight at night on 95* days. But the Americans that did the same job were all gone form the job site before three o'clock in the afternoon because it was too hot.

As far as the Nations I did mention, those people come here and work the same way. For years they work the same way. All of those threats are non existent here after a few years. They have for the most part more than they ever wanted but they keep on. That is a work ethic. Check out the ER at your local hospital and let me know how many of the Docs that are there are from the US. India, China and Korea is where they come from.

Please get the Slavery issue out of your mind. I'm pretty sure that most of the people that didn't vote for the present president don't want slavery brought back. Some have other issues I'm sure but slavery isn't one of them.
None of the above roofers were considered slaves by the builder or among themselves. They needed the money and they were willing to work for it. The other guys only needed enough to pay their truck payment, gas for their truck, mobile home rent, fishing and hunting licences and enough for the beer to go fishing or hunting. With some the first two were the most important because they had a girl friend with two kids they were living with and she paid for all of the rest of the items from her alimony check or child support. After that they were done.

Every car dealership I worked in had the exact same problems in the service department. The only reason I didn't send them on their way was it was hard to find another certified technician lazy or not. In the sales department they were sent on their way because I could hire new sales people and in two days have them talking to customers with a bit of supervision.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:48 PM   #48
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So wrong I may be but what do you call it when in the 80's while living in Texas the Mexican roofers were at the sub division at sun up and worked on the roof of the houses until seven or eight at night on 95* days. But the Americans that did the same job were all gone form the job site before three o'clock in the afternoon because it was too hot.

As far as the Nations I did mention, those people come here and work the same way. For years they work the same way. All of those threats are non existent here after a few years. They have for the most part more than they ever wanted but they keep on. That is a work ethic. Check out the ER at your local hospital and let me know how many of the Docs that are there are from the US. India, China and Korea is where they come from.

Please get the Slavery issue out of your mind. I'm pretty sure that most of the people that didn't vote for the present president don't want slavery brought back. Some have other issues I'm sure but slavery isn't one of them.
None of the above roofers were considered slaves by the builder or among themselves. They needed the money and they were willing to work for it. The other guys only needed enough to pay their truck payment, gas for their truck, mobile home rent, fishing and hunting licences and enough for the beer to go fishing or hunting. With some the first two were the most important because they had a girl friend with two kids they were living with and she paid for all of the rest of the items from her alimony check or child support. After that they were done.

Every car dealership I worked in had the exact same problems in the service department. The only reason I didn't send them on their way was it was hard to find another certified technician lazy or not. In the sales department they were sent on their way because I could hire new sales people and in two days have them talking to customers with a bit of supervision.

first of all those new immigrants had incentive to get as much money as fast as they could in case they were deported and u can in no way compare native workers to illegal's anymore than you could if you were in mexico observing foreign workers in that country. You are comparing apples to oranges and that doesn't work. When a worker lives under conditions in which he has no control if he/she wishes to survive he or she may be considered, since they have no choice, slaves to the system, or at the very least if coyote's are involved and they likely are indentured servants that controls them. Many of these hard working immigrants were under intense pressure to pay off coyotes that they owe money to or their families owe money too. I suggest you take the time to learn of the trials and tribulations many of these new immigrants endure.
Besides, the discussion wasnt about immigrants here it was abnout workers in foreign countries. Two diferent topics my friend.
when i was a teenager i worked in the fields with them for fun. I thought it great fun to work my butt off just like the immigrants. I soon began to appreciate their plight and understand the way the bracerro program controlled their lives. They had no choice but to work. Is that what you would like to see become the normal condition of employment for American workers?
Many chinese people's families save for years in order to get enough money to make a down payment to a coyote so a family member can be smuggled into the states. The hope is that after the fees are paid they can make big bucks and send for more family members. All a matter of record if you take the time to learn.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:33 PM   #49
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bfloyd--- Don't interpret this to mean that my vision of China (from being there and working there) is that it's all hearts and flowers and people dancing in the parks. It's not.

But your assumptions about the Chinese people is so far off the mark it's hard for me to believe that in this day of instant communication and global relationships anyone could still have these views.

Or maybe not. I guess it all depends on what one wants to believe coupled with how one gets their information.

Here's what I and my crew have experienced time and time again. When a Chinese person in China tells you they are going to do something, whether it's at the highest levels in the government or a business executive or an office assistant or a factory worker, they do it. And they do it on time and they do it right.

And when one talks about shoddy products and cut corners, you have to look at the whole story. Who's actually calling the shots on what is made and how? More often than not, it's the company buying the product, which is more often than not a non-Chinese company.

The iPhone or iPad situation is true and is good example of pretty oppressive working conditions. But why are they working that way? It all starts with Apple, who calls up and says, "we need this done by such and such a time or else." Faced with the "or else," the alternative is to work people incredibly long hours for pay that is dictated in large part by what Apple is willing to pay.

WalMart is notorious for this. They demand that shirts be made for x-price or they will pull their business and take it to Sri Lanka or wherever. Mexico, China, Viet Nam--- WalMart is an equal opportunity threatener.

So the choice is produce the shirts for x-price or go out of business entirely. And WalMart's x-price means crappy wages and long hours for the people sewing their shirts together.

The work ethic of the Chinese is exactly how RTF and JD have described it. And as JD said, the same thing applies to Korea and many other "developing" countries. We were just in Korea last month. There's a reason the Apache helicopter fuselage and half the F-15 are made over there. Sure, the labor is probably cheaper. But with products like these, you can't put production someplace where the labor is cheaper but the quality is crap.

We put the Apache fuselage and the front fuselage and wings of the F-15 and the rear end of the 787 fuselage in South Korea because they are real good at putting these things together. The top rated refrigerators these days are Samsung and LG. Korean companies. Hyundai (which has recently taken over KIA) is racking up more and more "best quality" awards from Consumer Reports and JD Powers. Like Honda in the 1960s, the "joke' car has become a serious contender and has done so right under our noses.

The world's top manufacturing and research company in the field of magnesium manufacturing is in China. We've filmed it. That's why we (Boeing) are there.

And everywhere we've gone--- modern industrial complexes like COMAC (their big aerospace company) and PetroChina to farms out in the middle of God-knows-where, everyone is beavering away and doing what they say they're going to do and taking responsibility for whatever it is that they're doing.

It used to be that way in the US.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:58 PM   #50
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Thank you Mr. Marin. I thought I was remiss in explaining myself clearly enough but the missunderstanding may not be on my end.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:20 AM   #51
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bfloyd--- Don't interpret this to mean that my vision of China (from being there and working there) is that it's all hearts and flowers and people dancing in the parks. It's not.

But your assumptions about the Chinese people is so far off the mark it's hard for me to believe that in this day of instant communication and global relationships anyone could still have these views.

Or maybe not. I guess it all depends on what one wants to believe coupled with how one gets their information.

Here's what I and my crew have experienced time and time again. When a Chinese person in China tells you they are going to do something, whether it's at the highest levels in the government or a business executive or an office assistant or a factory worker, they do it. And they do it on time and they do it right.

And when one talks about shoddy products and cut corners, you have to look at the whole story. Who's actually calling the shots on what is made and how? More often than not, it's the company buying the product, which is more often than not a non-Chinese company.

The iPhone or iPad situation is true and is good example of pretty oppressive working conditions. But why are they working that way? It all starts with Apple, who calls up and says, "we need this done by such and such a time or else." Faced with the "or else," the alternative is to work people incredibly long hours for pay that is dictated in large part by what Apple is willing to pay.

WalMart is notorious for this. They demand that shirts be made for x-price or they will pull their business and take it to Sri Lanka or wherever. Mexico, China, Viet Nam--- WalMart is an equal opportunity threatener.

So the choice is produce the shirts for x-price or go out of business entirely. And WalMart's x-price means crappy wages and long hours for the people sewing their shirts together.

The work ethic of the Chinese is exactly how RTF and JD have described it. And as JD said, the same thing applies to Korea and many other "developing" countries. We were just in Korea last month. There's a reason the Apache helicopter fuselage and half the F-15 are made over there. Sure, the labor is probably cheaper. But with products like these, you can't put production someplace where the labor is cheaper but the quality is crap.

We put the Apache fuselage and the front fuselage and wings of the F-15 and the rear end of the 787 fuselage in South Korea because they are real good at putting these things together. The top rated refrigerators these days are Samsung and LG. Korean companies. Hyundai (which has recently taken over KIA) is racking up more and more "best quality" awards from Consumer Reports and JD Powers. Like Honda in the 1960s, the "joke' car has become a serious contender and has done so right under our noses.

The world's top manufacturing and research company in the field of magnesium manufacturing is in China. We've filmed it. That's why we (Boeing) are there.

And everywhere we've gone--- modern industrial complexes like COMAC (their big aerospace company) and PetroChina to farms out in the middle of God-knows-where, everyone is beavering away and doing what they say they're going to do and taking responsibility for whatever it is that they're doing.

It used to be that way in the US.
First of all Marin I made no comment on any chinese worker i was speaking of chinese working conditions and institutions that define the environment that they work under. I love chinese workers. Your comment about shirts at x price is only valid if one believes china is the only place one can buy inexpensive clothing. If we ever meet you will not find anything i am wearing that isn't made in a country with human rights and environmental standards that i mostly approve of and this does not include china. All my clothing is USA or European, shoes are mostly European or made in Oregon. I will never knowingly buy from any sweat shop in any country.
I think you and others are confusing work ethics with working standards. Work ethic is an individual thing while working standards are determined by company and government. I take offense at the reference to US workers having poor work ethics because i was one of them and I was never late and goods were always delivered on time and usually of better quality than expected by the customer. I know lots of workers in this country that always deliver more than expected and on time. Why are you and others so fast to put the blame on workers before you even take the time to analyze the situation to determine the real culprit? Maybe to lazy to make the effort? Ah, i understand now why you talk this way about American workers its because that's the way you do your work. In our country we would always hear about worker errors and never about management error. A few years back when Ford said they were in trouble and were going to do an audit to determine the problem I expected the blame to be placed on the worker. Well Ford management admitted it was their fault for not updating assembly lines when times were good and that they would consolidate resources and sell off subsidiaries in order to retool and get back in step. When the other auto makers were bellying up to the bar for obama bucks ford declined the offer stating they were financially solvent and had no need of government money. What a novel idea, but one which made me a supporter.The workers were the same but management policies changed. So place the blame were its due and stop beating up on the lowest member of the pecking order. And don't you forget it was the American workers that saved Europe in ww1 and again in ww2, the gulf war, etc. Where were all these great workers from china and other places during these times of crisis? Have you ever heard the old saying that one shouldnt bite the hand that feeds and protects them? I have supported workers all my life since the field days before ceasar chavez...excuse me, Mr. Ceasar Chavez.

chuckle... so the chinese have a good magnesium smelter in china. Well i wonder who it was that taught them how to become proficient in this industry? maybe a rickshaw blacksmith? I'll bet it was an American or German worker, possibly Krupps
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:28 AM   #52
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first of all those new immigrants had incentive to get as much money as fast as they could in case they were deported and u can in no way compare native workers to illegal's anymore than you could if you were in mexico observing foreign workers in that country. You are comparing apples to oranges and that doesn't work. When a worker lives under conditions in which he has no control if he/she wishes to survive he or she may be considered, since they have no choice, slaves to the system, or at the very least if coyote's are involved and they likely are indentured servants that controls them. Many of these hard working immigrants were under intense pressure to pay off coyotes that they owe money to or their families owe money too. I suggest you take the time to learn of the trials and tribulations many of these new immigrants endure.
Besides, the discussion wasnt about immigrants here it was abnout workers in foreign countries. Two diferent topics my friend.
when i was a teenager i worked in the fields with them for fun. I thought it great fun to work my butt off just like the immigrants. I soon began to appreciate their plight and understand the way the bracerro program controlled their lives. They had no choice but to work. Is that what you would like to see become the normal condition of employment for American workers?
Many chinese people's families save for years in order to get enough money to make a down payment to a coyote so a family member can be smuggled into the states. The hope is that after the fees are paid they can make big bucks and send for more family members. All a matter of record if you take the time to learn.
Hang on here. You are drawing a lot of conclusions. Your watching way to may 60 minutes programs with Coyotes and such. The builder had a strict policy. Everyone had to have a Green card. Now I know all of the stories about how to get Green cards but for the most part these guys were legals. So they weren't being harassed into doing the job. Yes they wanted the money but they were willing to work long hard hours for it. Why turn that into some drama? Why do you automatically assume they were illegals?

Do you know that the Chinese came here to the US to buy up houses near Duke, UNC, UCLA, Stanford and I'm sure other top Universities in this country as well? One particular Realtor here in this area even rented a bus to show the properties off to these Chinese buyers. Do you have any idea why? Well with the housing market in the bucket these Chinese saw an opportunity to buy some US property. Not so they could just own US property but so that their Children would have a place to live near the school they were going to attend. And not just one child, two or three from the same family. Wow the Coyotes must be raking in the dough on these folks.

You have several people that have been to China telling you it isn't as bad as you think but that doesn't seem to make any difference.

Now sit back drink a cold beverage and relax. The world is not going to end on Friday.

BTW I have heard the stories of how people came to this country as immigrants 95 years ago and there are a lot of similarities as to what happens now. They had sponsors, a requirement at that time. Some sponsors tried all of the same stuff that your Coyotes try today back in the early 1900's. The sponsors were who they lived with, of course they had to pay rent and the sponsors were often who employed them at a $1 a day for the work they did of which $.20 a day went for their room rental. They were up at 5:00 am to get the horse hooked to the wagon and the ladders and paint cans and brushes loaded into the wagon so that they could be on the job at 7:00 am. The the sponsor would discuss the job with the owner of the building to be painted and then the worker would bring everything into the building and start to paint the three rooms. The sponsor helped of course. But come about 11:30 the sponsor said he was off to lunch and the painter would stay and continue to paint because he didn't have any money to buy lunch. The sponsor showed back up at about 4:00 PM half in the bag and fall asleep in the hall. At about 6:00 PM the worker would wake the sponsor up and he would help take everything down to the wagon for the trip home. But before they would leave the owner would come and inspect the paint work and then pay the sponsor the agreed on amount which was $10. When they got home the sponsor would help unload the wagon the worker would feed and water the horse and they would have some kind of dinner. That was when the sponsor paid the worker his $1. After about four weeks of this the worker had 10 or 12 dollars saved. He bought a couple of paint brushes and a ladder. Found a new place to live and became his own boss. Yes I heard the stories first had right from the worker, my grandfather that went through it, not on 60 minutes or a TV.

You said "All a matter of record if you take the time to learn."

I think I took the time to learn that story. Over 60 years ago.

I'm done.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:34 AM   #53
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Hang on here. You are drawing a lot of conclusions. Your watching way to may 60 minutes programs with Coyotes and such. The builder had a strict policy. Everyone had to have a Green card. Now I know all of the stories about how to get Green cards but for the most part these guys were legals. So they weren't being harassed into doing the job. Yes they wanted the money but they were willing to work long hard hours for it. Why turn that into so drama. Why do you automatically assume they were illegals?

Do you know that the Chinese came here to the US to buy up houses near Duke, UNC, UCLA, Stanford and I'm sure other top Universities in this country as well? One particular Realtor here in this area even rented a bus to show the properties off to these Chinese buyers. Do you have any idea why? Well with the housing market in the bucket these Chinese saw an opportunity to buy some US property. Not so they could just own US property but so that their Children would have a place to live near the school they were going to attend. And not just one child, two or three from the same family. Wow the Coyotes must be raking in the dough on these folks.

You have several people that have been to China telling you it isn't as bad as you think but that doesn't seem to make any difference.

Now sit back drink a cold beverage and relax. The world is not going to end on Friday.

BTW I have heard the stories of how people came to this country as immigrants 95 years ago and there are a lot of similarities as to what happens now. They had sponsors, a requirement at that time. Some sponsors tried all of the same stuff that your Coyotes try today back in the early 1900's. The sponsors were who they lived with, of course they had to pay rent and the sponsors were often who employed them at a $1 a day for the work they did of which $.20 a day went for their room rental. They were up at 5:00 am to get the horse hooked to the wagon and the ladders and paint cans and brushes loaded into the wagon so that they could be on the job at 7:00 am. The the sponsor would discuss the job with the owner of the building to be painted and then the worker would bring everything into the building and start to paint the three rooms. The sponsor helped of course. But come about 11:30 the sponsor said he was off to lunch and the painter would stay and continue to paint because he didn't have any money to buy lunch. The sponsor showed back up at about 4:00 PM half in the bag and fall asleep in the hall. At about 6:00 PM the worker would wake the sponsor up and he would help take everything down to the wagon for the trip home. But before they would leave the owner would come and inspect the paint work and then pay the sponsor the agreed on amount which was $10. When they got home the sponsor would help unload the wagon the worker would feed and water the horse and they would have some kind of dinner. That was when the sponsor paid the worker his $1. After about four weeks of this the worker had 10 or 12 dollars saved. He bought a couple of paint brushes and a ladder. Found a new place to live and became his own boss. Yes I heard the stories first had right from the worker, my grandfather that went through it, not on 60 minutes or a TV.

You said "All a matter of record if you take the time to learn."

I think I took the time to learn that story. Over 60 years ago.

I'm done.
why would they wish to go to school hear if china is so great? thats it.

Not like me to use so few words but that is all that is needed. Oh and getting a green card does not mean they don't still have a coyote or other financial obligation to pay now does it?

I think i have stated before that i support all workers. The real issue hear is one we are not allowed to discuss in this forum or i would. For your information Coyote's are a modern invention in the last forty years or less.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:37 AM   #54
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I'm not talking about work or working standards or conditions, I'm talking about work ethics. Those traits in an individual that motivate him or her to do a good job, take responsibility, and do what they say they are going to do. On their own initiative and because they feel it's the right thing to do, not because they feel they have to or they won't get rewarded.

And in this respect, the Chinese as a whole are ahead of Americans. Actually, that's not correct at all. Ethics isn't a race. The Chinese have the personal work ethics they have, period. It's the US that is slipping behind them in this regard.

While the US is sliding down into a morass of complaining, whining, polarization, blaming, and stagnation due to incompetence--- particularly in the case of the government--- countries like China, Korea, Viet Nam, India (sort of) are doing what we did after WWII. Accelerating like mad.

You are correct in one thing--- China is not the only place you can have cheap shirts made. Korea, Viet Nam, Sri Lanka, India, South Africa, Malaysia, Mexico, Central America, to name a few. And you will find that the same conditions that exist for the folks that do these jobs in China exist in those places, too. As I said, WalMart is an equal opportunity threatener.

BTW, the your smug assumption that the Chinese learned everything about technology from Americans or whoever is ignorant beyond belief.

And don't forget, WE learned everything about rockets and swept wings from the Germans. We weren't smart enough to figure this out on our own at that point. In fact the only way we could make it work was to drag the Germans over here to do it for us. Human history is filled with examples of people in one area learning things from people in another area by virtue of exploration in the old days to commercial trade today.

And frankly, who cares how the Chinese got their start in magnesium manufacturing? The fact is that they did and today they lead the world in it in terms of technical innovation. BTW, there are no foreign managers, scientists, metallurgists, or anybody else "western" in that facility. We were there. We checked. So if someone helped them get started, they're accelerating on their own now. And that's all that matters.

Now none of us are so naive as to think that we will change your mind. You will carry on in ignorance of what is going on in that part of the world. Fine. What you believe has no relevance whatsoever to what people are actually doing. You can wear your German shirts (probably with Chinese buttons) and your American jackets (probably with Chinese zippers) all you like. If it makes you feel good that's fine and it helps out the Chinese button and zipper people, too.

What clinging to outdated, ignorant notions about other countries and their people does, however, is pull the US down just a wee tiny bit more in our competitive position in the world.

Fortunately, not everyone or every company in the US is a blind as you are to reality.

Sometime in the later 1980s, the CEO of Boeing made a big deal about how we were going to make a strong effort to become a "global" company. At the time we all said, "That's nice," and went on about our business. All we had to do was walk down the flightlines and look at the paint jobs on the planes to know we already were a global company.

But that's not what the CEO meant. What he meant-- and it's only been relatively recently that I think we've all realized it--- is that we were going to become a global company. We were going to get involved with research and technologies and other leading-edge companies around the world in an ongoing, partnership sort of way.

It was a pretty visionary thought at the time, and while I think most of the rank and file didn't pay much attention to it, however it's happened, it's happened. And that's why we were in China at the magnesium research and manufacturing facility and why we were at the biofuel feedstock farms and why we were at the algae biofuel farms and on and on and on.

And it's not just China. We're in Korea and India and South Africa and Eastern Europe, and Russia, and Australia, and of course Japan.

Why? Because even back in the late 80s, people at this company were recognizing that other people in other countries knew more about some things than we did. And were way more advanced at doing some things than we were. Including China.

So you can put your head in the sand and continue to believe the stereotypes and the ignorant propaganda and the silly assumptions or you can partner with people in other countries who are as good as or better than we are at certain things and move ahead on a global scale. Which, I am glad to say, is what the company I work for has done. In February we're off to support our company's growing technology partnerships with Brazil, for example.

It's been interesting and in a selfish way rather encouraging reading your comments and beliefs about China because it has illustrated, for me anyway, how far we have come in our global relationships. It's a before and after sort of thing.

Your beliefs represent the "before," when Americans--- including me--- knew almost nothing about China and so bought into every piece of propaganda that came down the pike (I'm sure there are still people in Idaho who are convinced that Chinese troops are massed across the border in the forests of Canada awaiting the order to invade, the "black helicopter" people).

What I see in China on our working trips today is the "after," the reality of a country that is totally different than what we used to imagine it to be. It blew me away, on the first project I directed over there some four years ago or so. Every stereotype I had in my head was wrong. But it took going there to convince me.

Like I said earlier, I wouldn't want to live there. I don't care much for the geography or the climate. But if I was in a position to have something made, particularly something high-tech, complicated, and exacting, I'd want to have it made there. Or South Korea.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:44 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
why would they wish to go to school hear if china is so great? thats it.

Not like me to use so few words but that is all that is needed. Oh and getting a green card does not mean they don't still have a coyote or other financial obligation to pay now does it?

I think i have stated before that i support all workers. The real issue hear is one we are not allowed to discuss in this forum or i would. For your information Coyote's are a modern invention in the last forty years or less.
"why would they wish to go to school hear if china is so great? thats it."

This is wrong of me but I can't help it. The answers is so they will know the difference between a place and listening. Here is a hint. Can you hear it?

As far as Coyotes being a modern invention. That's a absurd as anything that has been said so far. Maybe calling that slime by that particular name is modern but the practice is ancient.

Like Marin said, there are many things that came from China. They had metal arrow heads way before the American Indian, hundreds of years before. Remember Gun Powder? Where did it come from? Here try this link,

Gunpowder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bronze age in China was about 2700 to 2000 BC. So what can we learn from them may just astound you. Then again maybe not.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:49 PM   #56
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I believe there are two reasons that Chinese students go to schools outside China.

One is the same reason that students from any country go to schools in other countries--- they like what a school has to offer, and they like the adventure of going to a different country. US students go to college in the UK and France, for example. It's not an uncommon thing to do anymore. Sometimes schools in another country can offer courses or fields of study that schools at home don't.

Another popular place for Chinese to go to college is Switzerland.

I wish I would have had the means and vision to go to college in the UK--- Oxford or Cambridge. It would have been far more exciting to be in a place like that than at Colorado State University and the University of Hawaii and I would have gotten a better education in the areas I was interested in.

The other reason is that schools in China are full with waiting lists and the competition to get into them is fierce. In fact I read an article not long ago about how the competition among parents to get their kids into the "right" schools in China, from elementary school right up through college, makes the same competition in the US look like a Sunday school picnic. You have a huge country with a huge population with a skyrocketing economy and booming development with the associated explosion in the demand for higher education. The education system in China is simply overwhelmed.

Two trips ago we filmed a lot on university campuses around China, specifically the technology research labs. And they were just like the labs you find in universities in the US. Same equipment, same kinds of students. No real difference at all except we couldn't understand them.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:58 PM   #57
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I'm pretty sure that most of the people that didn't vote for the present president don't want slavery brought back. Some have other issues I'm sure but slavery isn't one of them.

Just what do you call an infant , just born that is presented with a $50,000 bill, he will never be free of , just paying interest for his entire life?

Slave , Indentured Servant , Serf?
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:20 PM   #58
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I worked for an all Chinese company for several years and thoroughly enjoyed it. I was treated very well, with respect and no prejudice.

Rather than attempt to correct some obvious wrong thoughts exhibited on this thread , suffice to say it was the highlight of my career before retiring. If you have any influence with youngsters seeking a career path, encourage them to learn Mandarin, get a good solid education in something other than history or fine arts, be ready to travel and apply for work with a company doing business in or with China.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:47 PM   #59
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To build on Tom's statement above, the most important thing I am grateful to Boeing for is giving me the opportunity to not just visit but to work in countries all over the world. And the most important thing I've learned about countries I'd not been to before is that almost everything I assumed about them and the people who live there was wrong.

What this experience has, and continues to convince me of, is that international travel--- and by that I mean you have to cross a major ocean, none of this Canada or Mexico thing---- should be a curriculum requirement for school kids in the US. I don't know what age range would be the most effective, middle school or high school.

But every US kid should have to go to another country and stay there long enough to get an appreciation of the fact that the world is not US-centric and that other nations, cultures, and people have customs, ideas, lives, and dreams that are every bit as relevant and valid as what we have here in the US.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:19 PM   #60
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Greetings,
Mr. Marin. A lot of US kids have been going to other countries and staying there a long time (some permanently) for years courtesy of the US military. "customs, ideas, lives, and dreams" are routinely ridiculed, ignored and eliminated. Nope, sorry, that idea won't work. How about a non US-centric educational system? Um, I don't think THAT would work either....What was the phrase? The world wonders....
A dumbed down population is much easier to control and manipulate as evidenced by some posts here.
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