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Old 12-13-2012, 03:25 PM   #41
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I would think form follows function.

A boat is designed to function in a way that gives the greatest use for what it was intended.
As a canoe stern is good in a following sea.
The form is based on the function.
A hard chined canoe stern would not perform the function as well as a more rounded one.
Nor would the symmetry be a pleasing to the eye of a straight and chopped one .
The human mind follows summitry and is drawn to it
That is why the symmetry of a persons face denotes beauty.
If a computer were to design a boat or airplane both would probably work but the design would be unappealing.
Either that or I am wrong.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:34 PM   #42
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Drop dead ugly. Looks more like a littoral combat boat than a luxury motor yacht.

See the similarity?



Indeed it does look like a weapon...or a starship on the water...which is of course exactly what the designers were after. My point is that they wrapped a look around some brilliant functional elements. I think of Dashew's power boats when I look at this PJ. Check it out in more detail at www.palmerjohnson.com By the way, I didn't use the word beautiful, I said stunning.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:42 PM   #43
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Since we're still flogging this topic:

Thomas Heatherwick on design: Opportunities not to be missed | The Economist
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:07 PM   #44
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Not at all. I was just expression my frustration when people don't know how the language works.
In that case... expression is a noun. (typo gotcha)

I'm generally not here for the semantics of the language. I have two postgraduate degrees and got my fill of that in school. I do enjoy discussing design and engineering. The problem solving it takes to produce elegant solutions is a lot of fun to both watch and participate in.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:13 PM   #45
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In that case... expression is a noun. (typo gotcha)
No, not a typo. It's the G-damn word replacement function on everything nowadays where the computer thinks it knows what you want to type before you do and automatically inserts what it thinks the word you want is. Half the time it's wrong but the bozos who wrote the applications make you tell it it's wrong. If you're typing real fast and don't see it, it goes ahead and puts the wrong word in.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:16 PM   #46
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It's the G-damn word replacement function on everything nowadays where the computer thinks it knows what you want to type before you do and automatically inserts what it thinks the word you want is.
Hmmm. Sounds like a design problem.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:20 PM   #47
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It is, probably because the kids who design the applications can't spell and don't have a clue about grammar so they want a machine to do it for them. Sort of a blind-leading-the-blind thing.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:47 AM   #48
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Hmmm. Sounds like a design problem.
Form over function again.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:46 AM   #49
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Skipperdude,
Yes form follows function (fff) but almost everybody misunderstands what function is.

First of all most people believe (because of that clever saying fff) that if a design is faithful to it's need the following form will be beautiful. And they mix this up to conclude that that beautiful things are much more likely to be good design that ugly things. A lot of the time to most of the time there's no connection unless it's a yacht or a luxury car like a Jaguar. Bolts, garbage cans, shovels, pistons, keys and thousands of other things have no need to be beautiful or attractive. Ther'e form is following their function but any beauty is an accident. Look at the Rocna anchor. Butt ugly. But the swoopy lines of the graceful Bruce don't seem to do it much good in the opinions of many especially here on the forum.

So if your'e going to follow the thinking of fff be well aware that probably most of the time beauty or even attractiveness is totally unnecessary and not sought in any way. Many people think design is the process of making beautiful things but most of the time it has nothing to do w it.

Dude, "The human mind follows symmetry and is drawn to it". Really??? I minored in art and don't recall that at all. Actually in photography I often (or even most of the time) try to keep symmetrical elements out of the picture. They aren't as interesting. Symmetry is for bolts and wheels. But symmetric implies rest or often correctness, especially in the case of bolts and wheels. I violated a general rule in my avatar. I put the boat right in the middle. When you take a pic of a vehicle one is supposed to "leave a little space for it to go so you leave more space where the vehicle is going (actually or just visually). As in Marin's avatar. But his unsightly fenders dangling down still bothers me. But I wanted to make my boat as big as possible since the avatar is so small. But in the case of my hull it has asymmetrical elements but they oppose each other (cabin and hull). But I chose this pic mainly because the almost black mtns in the background and the white hull in the sunshine has extreme contrast and will draw attention to the small picture. Marin has done the same and both pics work well as avatars. Symmetry has it's place. In a picture of a person directly facing the camera focuses the attention on the subject. Same w a tombstone. But if the person is facing a bit left one should leave some space on the right (of the pic) but I can't put the reason into words. Anybody care to try?

The Racna/Booce blurb was a joke for free ... mostly.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:47 AM   #50
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Design is the "glue" that holds styling and engineering together.......
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:19 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by skidgear View Post
Indeed it does look like a weapon...or a starship on the water...which is of course exactly what the designers were after. My point is that they wrapped a look around some brilliant functional elements. I think of Dashew's power boats when I look at this PJ. Check it out in more detail at www.palmerjohnson.com By the way, I didn't use the word beautiful, I said stunning.

Now that is my kind of boat!

I like the hull design/idea as when the boat is at the dock sitin in the water its has a wide beam to be stable, but when up and running it’s a deep V so it can go fast. Our 1970 Chrysler run about looks like that from the bow. Very stable when sitting in the water, and also very stable when up and running because of the Deep V. A 200+ lb slalom skier can not pull the stern around, its that solid. The hull also has a step which breaks the adhesion of the water. Great design.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:30 AM   #52
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OkSkipper,
Only if styling is an element of the design.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:35 AM   #53
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SkidGear,
Those boats are designed to express power, action, manliness, vogueness and uniqueness to attract buyers that are attracted to same.
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:16 PM   #54
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SkidGear,
Those boats are designed to express power, action, manliness, vogueness and uniqueness to attract buyers that are attracted to same.
So? Like a trunk cabin trawler isn't designed to meet virtually the same schtick? The difference is that PJ is coming at the efficiency, space, stability issues with some very interesting functional engineering solutions. I'd bet those sponsons (which provide a very wide beam aft on upper decks) have some active stability systems...in addition to a huge gyro, of course. Skinny center hull for efficiency. Light weight strong materials. Forget the phoney "green" BS like solar power. Here's a style/function exercise that takes some old ideas and packages them into a bold statement that probablly scales down in some areas. It should be applauded....actually, it is being applauded.
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:56 PM   #55
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skidgear,

"packages them into a bold statement"

You said it.

It seems you equate the extreme boat to be a bit like the Dashew boats. It is. They are both extreme and extreme things are very popular now. I just don't like things that look like a mad bull. I do like the Dashew boats. They are sort-of an overpowered sailboat w/o the rigging.

SomeSailor,

Very well put and great pic.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:16 PM   #56
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Dude, "The human mind follows symmetry and is drawn to it". Really??? I minored in art and don't recall that at all.

There was a recent discovery channel show on what constitutes beauty or attractiveness in a persons face.
The jest of it was that if a persons face is symmetrical we find it more appealing or more beautifully. The more symmetrical the prettier.

If you designed a boat that had one side different than the other it would not be considered beautiful.

I am sure it took a lot of generations to design a boat with a flared bow as compared to building one that was just a box which would be easyer to build but ugly and non functional or almost so.

Therefor the form follows the function.

The function of a flared bow is to facilitate easy transition through the water.

Given enough power a brick can fly but the form of the fusalage and wings allow it to do this much easyer.

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Old 12-14-2012, 05:49 PM   #57
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I wonder if the Ulstein X-bow is practical/effective on smaller (most our sizes) motorboats. Haven't yet decided if they're aesthetic.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:20 PM   #58
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[QUOTE=manyboats;119671]skidgear,

"packages them into a bold statement"

You said it.

It seems you equate the extreme boat to be a bit like the Dashew boats. It is. They are both extreme and extreme things are very popular now. I just don't like things that look like a mad bull. I do like the Dashew boats. They are sort-of an overpowered sailboat w/o the rigging.


I equate the PJ exercise to the Dashew boats because they both take innovative design approaches to the efficiency issue, not because they look "extreme".

That said, I believe the Dashew boats look ..functional...workboat-like....utilitarian to the extreme. Nothing wrong with that, but they're not particularly attractive. The PJ designs are over the top, in your face, take that plebians, Captain Nimoy's Nautilus in carbon fiber. If you don't at least admire the chutzpah it took to build one of these beasts, I grieve for your creative soul. Why are we discussing airplanes when a benchmark in naval architecture is about to be launched....
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:11 PM   #59
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Yes form follows function but usually it dosn't have anything to do w beauty. And sometimes beauty results from functional form w/o any effort in that direction but only w certain products like cars and boats is it a part of the design. And w the commercial airplanes I have no idea if they put any effort into making them attractive. Hardly any reason for it. When a person books a flight I don't think he or she cares one twit what the airplane looks like.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:43 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeSailor View Post
Drop dead ugly. Looks more like a littoral combat boat than a luxury motor yacht.

See the similarity?



Sorry, coming in a bit late here, but point of order Somesailor - rather poor choice of comparisons there as the boat in the top picture is in a way a combat vessel. That is the 'design' (note a noun, not a 'process' in this case, Eric et al - 's'ok, just yankin' chains a bit), we use as the main coastal protection vessel by our navy here in Oz. They actually used one (re-named Hammersley), in the TV production "Sea Patrol", made here in Oz, so we saw quite a lot of that design. You could however say that they are a good example of form following function. They need to be very seaworthy AND fast.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=S...w=1280&bih=607
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