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Old 06-04-2019, 04:18 PM   #21
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I'm sure that the next issue of "Professional Mariner" will have the whole skinny as to what happened. In the meantime, I'm ponderin' why the CUSC Maritime Academy TS Golden Bear had an allision with an overhead crane in Barbados tearing off the radar mast.
That collision was the result of the local Pilot screwing up, not the crew of the Bear.
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Old 06-04-2019, 05:41 PM   #22
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That deoends on the laws involving pilotage there from my readings/understanding.



Is pilotage there mandatory or not? and advisory or more? And even then, you who remains ultimately accountable is a grey area.


My understanding is that it is never clear who is ultimately accountable.


So bottom line even with a pilot, if something goes wrong, other than a less than obious navigation error, the captain still has a lot to answer for.
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Old 06-04-2019, 05:52 PM   #23
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Did you Read the article on GCaptain before commenting?
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Old 06-04-2019, 06:09 PM   #24
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I read and just reread a GCaptain article dated May 22 but it was short and answered none of the above questions or changes the gray area of responsibility between captain and pilot.


Do you have a link to an in depth article?
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Old 06-04-2019, 07:06 PM   #25
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We had a yacht club member, now deceased, who was an EXXON captain who had pilotage endorsements for both Valdez and Long Beach harbors, negating the need to hire harbor pilots.
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Old 06-04-2019, 07:34 PM   #26
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I don't have any more info, but have watched various footage angles taken by Middies who posted on the schools FB page.

After I posted, I talked to an Unlimited HP, Unlimited Tonnage Master, who has been a Pilot in one of the largest Ports in the US for 30 years. Bottom line, the Pilot screwed up, but its not entirely black and white and the courts will eventually decide. I don't want to quote him directly in order to respect his privacy, but it was not as clear cut as I had thought, so I will give you that PS.

OP, sorry about the thread drift.
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:51 AM   #27
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No worries about thread drift. I didnít have any clear destination in mind, really.

When it comes to pilots, unless the captain or other deck officer has pilotage for the area, itís almost certainly compulsory to have a pilot aboard. In the end, the pilot may share some responsibility for what happened, but ultimately the pilot is a hired consultant, and the captain has the final authority and responsibility.

As others have said, itís a rarity an incident is caused by one factor. Itís usually a chain of many factors or decisions that gets you here.

Last I read, there were deaths aboard the ferry. Whoever the blame gets pinned on, there will be quite a few people who will have trouble sleeping for a long, long while after this.
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Old 06-05-2019, 02:19 PM   #28
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Wayfarer,


Welcome to today's world. You may be too young to notice but this issue of the joe average person calling out the flaws in the professions has been going on for years and years. And, not limited to boating. We see it ALL professions.


It's way more apparent now because there's just way more ways to send and receive information.



And there's been tons of folks out there that just want to blame someone and percieve themselves to be the experts. Heck, you can see it on this forum! We all do Monday morning quarterbacking.



Get use to it.... will probably get worse.
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Old 06-10-2019, 02:14 PM   #29
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In 2005 a Canadian ferry essentially plowed over an entire marina, destroying quite a few boats. Remarkably no one was killed. The investigation later revealed that the accident occurred as a result of a missing cotter pin. Indeed, small things do matter when it comes to machinery, ships and the sea.
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:23 PM   #30
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Agree with the OP as a merchant sailor since 16 and Captain of a large passenger ship, an incident like this is almost always a wrong decision at some point. I smiled at the spinning plates comment, so true, add in the expectations of repeat cruising passengers and it is a tough gig. I left because the expectations on the Master of putting the ship in harm’s way was untenable with my standard of seamanship. Hence, I have some sympathy with the Costa Concordia Master and have a good idea of the misjudgement he made. He was rightly pilloried for leaving the ship before the last crew member and passenger had been evacuated.
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Old 06-10-2019, 05:01 PM   #31
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How about a show of hands for any on here, particularly us that do not cruise all the time because work and family intrude, who has not bumped into something or somebody even if it was just nerves damaged? I will bet there are very very few. Yes, we enjoy going on cruise ships, and I never miss an arrival or departure to watch these guys work. I am docked fairly close to the cruise ship pier here in Galveston and it is cool to follow at a distance. Of course, the Coasties have pointed a .50 cal for maybe not chopping throttle but maintain steerage, once. That gun seemed to have a muzzle the size of the USS Texasí big guns!
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Old 06-10-2019, 05:13 PM   #32
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anybody can make a mistake , part of being a professional is how you handle it after it starts.
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Old 06-10-2019, 05:24 PM   #33
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anybody can make a mistake , part of being a professional is how you handle it after it starts.
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Exactly....with the advent of crew coordination over the last 3 decades... Those who embraced it are probably still happily in command or peacefully retired.

Professionals that ignored it's value, one we're never professionals and are paying the price.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:48 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve DAntonio View Post
In 2005 a Canadian ferry essentially plowed over an entire marina, destroying quite a few boats. Remarkably no one was killed. The investigation later revealed that the accident occurred as a result of a missing cotter pin. Indeed, small things do matter when it comes to machinery, ships and the sea.
Thanks for posting Steve. What isnít mentioned here is that the ferry was in its final moments before docking, and when they went to apply reverse power to do their final slowdown, they had no reverse.
The very quick thinking captain ordered a hard to starboard turn and they gradually came to a stop albeit at the expense of a few docks and boats.
It beggars the imagination to think of the injuries or worse that would have occurred if they came to a hard stop at the berth.
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:42 PM   #35
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In Defense of Professional Mariners

In curious why the author would post such a very long comment on this website. Early in his comments after giving a link to an article showing a shipping accident with videos he says;

"It kinda pisses me off. It upsets me partly because I'm a millennial snowflake, and I'm very sensitive (humor), but also because I'm a captain, and it's difficult for me not to take this sort of thing somewhat personally. I realize that's a failing of mine, but the reality is, this job is a HUGE part of who I am as a person. It's a significant part of my identity. I take it seriously, and when I mess up, I feel it. I failed, and it hurts deeply."

What sort of thing are you taking personally? The article in G Captain about the event? The videos? The contents of the article? The fact that someone else saw it?

If you were my son, I'd tell you, I'm proud of you for having a job that involved such skills and responsibility, and.....GROW UP, stuff will happen, and it will probably happen to you some day! And being captain of your vessel, you ALWAYS will be responsible, regardless of fault, because that comes with the job. If you can't live with that, you shouldn't be a captain no matter how good you are at all the other parts of being a captain. Sorry, but that's the truth of the matter.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:18 AM   #36
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Like the armchair quarterback, nobody knows anything until youíve been in the situation.
Everyone at one point or another will make a bad choice or decision which seems right at the time which is why hindsight is 20/20.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:23 AM   #37
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It is a fact that one of the first lessons in command is to know you will make mistakes and be blamed for things and not to react to that.... or think everyone will like/respect you.
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Old 06-11-2019, 07:31 AM   #38
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Sounds like the same thing law enforcement officers go through on a regular basis. A decision made in a split second, in a high stress situation, is reviewed for months, by people sitting comfortably and safely in chairs.

Meanwhile, thanks to the internet, thousands of others, with no real subject matter knowledge or expertise, whose sole base of knowledge comes from watching fictional tv and movies, dissect and provide ongoing critical review of your every action.

Sad to say, it just cones with the territory and our new world where everybody is an expert on everything. I like being retired.
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:33 PM   #39
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After watching the accident I automatically assumed it was equipment failure. It is hard to believe how a professional Mariner could just run into the dock like that
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:48 AM   #40
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Two quotes come to mind from this episode...

"Only a fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns form the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismark

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward."
Vernon Law
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