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Old 11-13-2018, 09:35 PM   #61
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Bill and Stella, I think we are in furious agreement. I hope you understood it was FF, not I, suggesting the death of one or two million people would help, and to be fair I think(or hope) he was only using it as an absurdity argument.

Understood, Bruce. Re-reading my post I can see how my use of the "killing billions" concept to make a point might wrongly imply that you somehow proposed this. Sorry
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Old 11-14-2018, 07:00 AM   #62
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What is current China policy on managing birth rate?
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Old 11-14-2018, 09:18 AM   #63
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From what I see in Capitalist societies population growth is SELF limited as the society gets Richer.

At one time having 6-10 kids was insurance of food and a roof over ones head in old age.

Today success requires education and the thought of putting 6 kids thru a kollege is daunting to all but a very few.

There is no requirement for a growing population , I have always thought automation in manufacturing would allow very short work hours , with no loss of productivity.

There will always be a demand for touch work , cooks, house painters, auto repair folks so folks that enjoyed that work , or realized a great pay check would be doing it.

I was an airline pilot , great pay and although the computer folks would be happy to automate the job , how many would fly with a pilot 2500 miles away observing dozen flights?

What is needed for Capitalism is not new people , esp poor folks at the bottom , but new concepts and ideas and products that can be produced and sold for a profit to keep the system operating.
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Old 11-14-2018, 08:38 PM   #64
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Bill
What is current China policy on managing birth rate?

Some history, after liberation many unsuccessfully urged Mao to adopt an anti-natal policy as population growth was stressing China's food production capabilities. A good percent of the country is desert (GROWING!) and mountains. After Mao's death the government recognized the problem and started the one child policy implemented by education. However, some officials did get out of hand.


Some social problems due to new techniques for determining sex before birth and available low cost abortions (the birth control of choice here) caused a man/women ratio imbalance. Hasn't been a serious problem yet as relaxed enforcement on prostitution and immigrant wife's (limited) eased social pressures.


New rules allowing more children seems to be based on creating people to take care of the increasing percentage of old folks (like me!). Of course, creating billions at the bottom of the population pyramid, who live 80 years, to take care of millions of old people at the top, who live 8 years, is silly. And, unfortunately, kids aren't taking very good care of the old folks these days. There has to be better ways to handle this problem.


New rules didn't work. Birth rates did not increase and in major cities is still decreasing. When I asked my very middle class step son about having more kids his cynical reply- "never, who needs a 20 year prison sentence and 60 years of probation".
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Old 11-15-2018, 01:04 AM   #65
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Hi,


add to the history of who still remembers Mao ordered 4 animals to be destroyed in 1958, one of them being a "capitalist bird sparrow" who ate rice from the field. The following year the harvest was good when there was no longer a spur, in the following years there was famine that killed about 35 million people, due to the destruction of sparrows.


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Old 11-15-2018, 01:32 PM   #66
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Hi,


add to the history of who still remembers Mao ordered 4 animals to be destroyed in 1958, one of them being a "capitalist bird sparrow" who ate rice from the field. The following year the harvest was good when there was no longer a spur, in the following years there was famine that killed about 35 million people, due to the destruction of sparrows.

I never knew about that. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 11-15-2018, 03:03 PM   #67
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Mao's "Great Leap Forward" led to the starvation deaths of 35 million Chinese...but who's counting?
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Old 11-15-2018, 04:33 PM   #68
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Mao's "Great Leap Forward" led to the starvation deaths of 35 million Chinese...but who's counting?

Yeah, combination of bad science, bad policy, and bad weather. I never knew about the birds though. It sounds like it added to the perfect storm that caused the famine.
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Old 11-15-2018, 04:51 PM   #69
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How did the absence of the sparrow cause a crop failure? Or was there another contemporaneous cause?
There is discussion here about the importance of bees as pollinators. So far we have avoided some overseas beehive pests/diseases,but if you lose the bees you can lose pollination, and no pollination can mean no crop.
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Old 11-15-2018, 05:24 PM   #70
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How did the absence of the sparrow cause a crop failure? Or was there another contemporaneous cause?
There is discussion here about the importance of bees as pollinators. So far we have avoided some overseas beehive pests/diseases,but if you lose the bees you can lose pollination, and no pollination can mean no crop.

I looked it up and it appears that they wiped out a huge percentage of the birds in the area. It was thought that the birds were eating a lot of grain. Turns out they were also eating a lot of insects such as locusts. Those pests were a much bigger problem than the birds.



Again, thanks to NBS for mentioning it. Very interesting.
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Old 11-15-2018, 05:48 PM   #71
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So are you saying you can't believe there is such a thing as overpopulation or we haven't reached it yet? Assuming you can rationalize the concept, what indicators would tell you when we reach that point?

Ted
Like if I was in downtown LA, pointed my vehicle NE to drive to Boston, and the scenery never changed for 3,000 miles.
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Old 11-15-2018, 07:01 PM   #72
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Believe in the planet, people!

https://www.foxnews.com/science/baby...-nearly-decade
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Old 11-15-2018, 07:04 PM   #73
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How many of you have read State of Fear, by Michael Crichton?

https://www.amazon.com/State-Fear-Mi...=state+of+fear

This book explains a lot about how we humans operate, and why pretty crazy ideas get immense traction. Highly recommended.
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Old 11-15-2018, 08:06 PM   #74
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I looked it up and it appears that they wiped out a huge percentage of the birds in the area. It was thought that the birds were eating a lot of grain. Turns out they were also eating a lot of insects such as locusts. Those pests were a much bigger problem than the birds.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.
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Old 11-16-2018, 12:53 AM   #75
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How did the absence of the sparrow cause a crop failure? Or was there another contemporaneous cause?
There is discussion here about the importance of bees as pollinators. So far we have avoided some overseas beehive pests/diseases,but if you lose the bees you can lose pollination, and no pollination can mean no crop.
Hi,

Sparrows also ate grasshoppers alongside rice. Grasshoppers got explosive because the sparrows were missing. Next, Mao began buying spurts back to China to remedy the matter, but years went by to get the balance in nature. Grasshoppers ate "all" rice or spoiled crops anyway.


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Old 11-16-2018, 01:03 AM   #76
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I looked it up and it appears that they wiped out a huge percentage of the birds in the area. It was thought that the birds were eating a lot of grain. Turns out they were also eating a lot of insects such as locusts. Those pests were a much bigger problem than the birds.



Again, thanks to NBS for mentioning it. Very interesting.
Hi,

In nature there is a very delicate balance in relation to many different things whenever a parameter changes it appears in another case, this was the original case when 80 species disappeared in 40 years and it is not a beautiful thing.

This sparrows case is a good example of man's foolishness to look beyond and underestimate other lives.

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Old 11-16-2018, 05:57 AM   #77
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"This book explains a lot about how we humans operate, and why pretty crazy ideas get immense traction. Highly recommended."

Sounds like "new math" "the population bomb" or" global warming."
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Old 11-16-2018, 09:05 AM   #78
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[QUOTE=North Baltic sea;714945]

add to the history of who still remembers Mao ordered 4 animals to be destroyed in 1958, one of them being a "capitalist bird sparrow" who ate rice from the field. The following year the harvest was good when there was no longer a spur, in the following years there was famine that killed about 35 million people, due to the destruction of sparrows.


For the last couple of weeks, every morning, there are these big bird fights near our apartment. Bird calls I have never heard before. This morning it was quiet and this is what I saw.



The winners, I guess.

Where is Mao when we need him?
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Old 11-16-2018, 10:29 AM   #79
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[QUOTE=Bill & Stella;715207]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by North Baltic sea View Post
add to the history of who still remembers Mao ordered 4 animals to be destroyed in 1958, one of them being a "capitalist bird sparrow" who ate rice from the field. The following year the harvest was good when there was no longer a spur, in the following years there was famine that killed about 35 million people, due to the destruction of sparrows.


For the last couple of weeks, every morning, there are these big bird fights near our apartment. Bird calls I have never heard before. This morning it was quiet and this is what I saw.



The winners, I guess.

Where is Mao when we need him?
Where is Alfred Hitchcock when we need him?
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Old 11-17-2018, 10:29 AM   #80
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"This book explains a lot about how we humans operate, and why pretty crazy ideas get immense traction. Highly recommended."

Sounds like "new math" "the population bomb" or" global warming."
Exactly.
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