Crying shame

[AusCan]

Nuclear winter has not yet happened because we have not yet had a large scale nuclear exchange because folks decided it wasn’t a good idea.

The Ozone Hole was scary. Turns out it tends to be a seasonal phenomenon, getting bigger int spring and smaller in the winter. Remember back to the Montreal Protocol which banned the use of CFCs. So yeah, I remember the Ozone Hole and the Montreal Protocol was the intelligent response to science by governments who actually listened. The result is a gradually shrinking hole in the ozone that should be gone by the middle of this century rather than an increasingly large hole in the ozone.

Acid Rain. Yup a big deal staring in the 1980s. Congress passed laws starting in the ‘90s and continued in the early 2000s to reduce the sulfur emissions and other causes of acid rain. Due to this action, the result of actually paying attention to science, the levels of acid rain have dropped significantly (over 60%?) since the 1970s.

So now global warming. Let’s just ignore the science and just see what happens in 20-50 years. I won’t be around and my kids an grandkids can figure it out themselves. I don’t owe them **** after all.

Well said, Dave.

I'm glad there are enough of us that put pressure on leaders in government to make a few changes which slow down some of the negative effects of our rampant overuse of the planet.

Others will continue to deny the facts, and ridicule anyone who attempts to make changes which minimise our impact on our environment.

None of us will be the solution to the problem on our own. We only need to be about 0.0000000002% of the solution. There are a lot of others out there and every day more are willing to be part of the solution.

Every bit helps. Even the little things. You don't have to buy a Prius.
You can reduce your footprint by not buying toothpaste with plastic nanoparticles. Its not that hard.
There are hundreds of things every person can do to help sort out the damage that has been done.

You don't have to do it all. You just have to accept that there is a problem and do your part.

 

[BruceK]

...
So now global warming. Let’s just ignore the science and just see what happens in 20-50 years. I won’t be around and my kids an grandkids can figure it out themselves. I don’t owe them **** after all.

I get that. Of course the earth gets warmer as we call upon it to feed more and more people, and burn more of it to provide them with creature comforts. Those pillaging the oceans for fish or ripping out virgin bushland to accommodate crops and grazing are not doing it to fill in a wet Saturday, they`re doing it in response to real demands for food.
I won`t be here to experience the tipping point either,but I`ve been around long enough to see what is happening, and it`s not good. NBS has a point.

 

[wkearney99]

HMMM,

Nuclear winter , starvation , no crops , no water , and of course overpopulation ,

Then it was the Ozone hole , we would all rot from skin cancer ,

Then it was Peak Oil , only publik transport would be allowed fuel , we would freeze in our homes,

Don't forget Acid Rain and toxic fumes or Radon,

Now global warming will raise the sea level many feet , next week,

This is only a partial list of the terrors that would , according to the Gov , kill us all.

Only thing missing is reality,,,,,,,,,,,, as usual.

• Simple changes to houses helps solve the radon issue (just some PVC pipe).
• Elimination of ozone-harming chemicals has worked quite well, such that the problem might actually resolve sooner than expected.
• Dramatic improvements to fuel efficiency help quite a lot on oil consumption.
• Quite a few innovations have come along for public transport, at least in urban areas (scooters, bikes, electric buses, etc).
• The Navy is actively planning for port sea level issues

.

Seems a bit of sensible science has worked out quite well. While all you bring is fear-mongering?

 

[North Baltic sea]

Well said, Dave.

I'm glad there are enough of us that put pressure on leaders in government to make a few changes which slow down some of the negative effects of our rampant overuse of the planet.

Others will continue to deny the facts, and ridicule anyone who attempts to make changes which minimise our impact on our environment.

None of us will be the solution to the problem on our own. We only need to be about 0.0000000002% of the solution. There are a lot of others out there and every day more are willing to be part of the solution.

Every bit helps. Even the little things. You don't have to buy a Prius.
You can reduce your footprint by not buying toothpaste with plastic nanoparticles. Its not that hard.
There are hundreds of things every person can do to help sort out the damage that has been done.

You don't have to do it all. You just have to accept that there is a problem and do your part.

Hi,

Well said, boating that small act could be to lower a bit of speed and consume much less fuel.

For example, many want to run 8kn of speed when cruising and it's my NT 3nm / gal if I decrease the speed of 7.5kn i can run 5nm / gal it's 40% longer trip by one gallon and for me it's no sea time increase when cruising eg 10 hours it's 5nm shorter distance, than run 0.5kn faster and 40 minutes more driving to be + 5nm vs about 12 gal less diesel and its emissions.


If all this thinks for a further period of one year or as much of us boating for tens of years the result is already significant in all ways measured so it may not make big changes to our own life

The situation is for me win win to save my own money and nature, I feel smart.

Marketing is already guiding the consumer. For example, the Nordic tug presents a boat range of just 8kn for all its models 26, 34, 40, 44, 49, 54 and everyone knows that it is not optimal for bigger ones. Where does this 8kn of speed imitate?

NBs

 

[BrianSmith]

Nuclear winter has not yet happened because we have not yet had a large scale nuclear exchange because folks decided it wasn’t a good idea.

The Ozone Hole was scary. Turns out it tends to be a seasonal phenomenon, getting bigger int spring and smaller in the winter. Remember back to the Montreal Protocol which banned the use of CFCs. So yeah, I remember the Ozone Hole and the Montreal Protocol was the intelligent response to science by governments who actually listened. The result is a gradually shrinking hole in the ozone that should be gone by the middle of this century rather than an increasingly large hole in the ozone.

Acid Rain. Yup a big deal staring in the 1980s. Congress passed laws starting in the ‘90s and continued in the early 2000s to reduce the sulfur emissions and other causes of acid rain. Due to this action, the result of actually paying attention to science, the levels of acid rain have dropped significantly (over 60%?) since the 1970s.

So now global warming. Let’s just ignore the science and just see what happens in 20-50 years. I won’t be around and my kids an grandkids can figure it out themselves. I don’t owe them **** after all.

Thank you for posting this - you saved me from having to write it. Yes, these were all scary issues that got a lot of attention, and then we, as species and a nation, decided to look at the science of the problem, use the science to determine the cause and identify some possible solutions, and then enact laws and regulations to implement the solutions. And guess what? They worked, or are still in the process of working.

 

[BrianSmith]

Now Brian, you are a boat owner you know getting about 1NMPG. I'm doing my part, sold the Suburban and using kilowatts from a nuclear power plant for household needs.

Of course. But I don't own a car or a house, and I don't run the generator except when necessary (and keeping the interior of the boat cooled to 78 degrees isn't necessary, so we rarely run the AC). And I run the main engine at its peak combination of power and efficiency (where those two curves meet).

And I vote for candidates who believe the science of climate change, not candidates who deny the science.

 

[BrianSmith]

Right on, Ted.
Every program, accomplished or proposed, to save our planet from environmental disaster is an ineffective small band-aid on a very large wound. That wound is OVER POPULATION which is the greatest threat to survive-ability on this planet. Each child born creates a carbon footprint of 58,000,000 (that's fifty eight million) tons a year

With all due respect, Bill & Stella, I think you missed the gist of that study. It says that a person's reproductive choices are important because each offspring (and their offspring, for four generations), is responsible for adding 58M tons of carbon AT THE CURRENT RATE of using carbon. IOW, consider your reproductive choices AS WELL AS everything else you're doing to try to reduce your carbon footprint. Put another way, if we massively reduce the carbon footprint of all humans, then we also massively reduce the carbon footprint of their offspring's four generations.

 

[FF]

"those people are at least trying to make the world a better place," For who???

Surveys show the size of the rain forest is increasing and most important world food production has been growing about 5% per year.

There are more trees in the USA than when the first migrants arrived , thousands of years ago , or when C.C. "discovered " America.

This is presumed to be because CO-2 is Plant Food , and even a tiny increase in temperature extends the growing season world wide.

With 1 billion folks existing on a buck a day , and another billion on about $2.00 per day its really harsh to say let them starve , because of another Gov hoax.

 

[sunchaser]

Two issues at work on this subject that are the proverbial elephants in the closet. One, oft mentioned already, the deniers as to effects of overpopulation. Two, the chase for world grant money creating a tsunami of businesses. Tens of billions per year supporting studies that point fingers rather than deal with issues.

Every success in doing the things Daved Hayes has mentioned (and many more) is counter balanced by a few hundred million new babies every year. Which member nation of the Paris Accords will be brave enough to suggest such a thing as population control?

Possibly climate change and politics are over mixed? nah.

On a side note, good thing the ever present CA wildfires are blowing to offshore. Ditto the pollution from the open burning on the Mexican side of refuse, tires and garbage. Keeps the AZ desert skies cleaner, when blowing this way CA and MX pollution gets annoying.

 

[North Baltic sea]

The cleanest air in the world can be found in Finland, so there is nothing to worry about, as well as the warmth of the air, and here in the north the boating season is extended and there is no need to heat the housing load much and the rise of the water surface when glaciers are merely positive news if I only think of Finland.

Link Finland Has the Cleanest Air in the World, Report Finds
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/country-with-worlds-cleanest-air-finland/


We also have no hurricanes that have increased the warming of the climate. So all right when you do not think broadly, so I'm trying to take it easier...


NBs

 

[sunchaser]

The cleanest air in the world can be found in Finland, so there is nothing to worry about, as well as the warmth of the air, and here in the north the boating season is extended and there is no need to heat the housing load much and the rise of the water surface when glaciers are merely positive news if I only think of Finland.

Link Finland Has the Cleanest Air in the World, Report Finds
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/country-with-worlds-cleanest-air-finland/


We also have no hurricanes that have increased the warming of the climate. So all right when you do not think broadly, so I'm trying to take it easier...


NBs

Yup, Finland is great. Been there many times. But, what instead of 5 million people if Finland had the population density of India? How "nice" would the air be then?

 

[dhays]

The cleanest air in the world can be found in Finland, so there is nothing to worry about, as well as the warmth of the air, and here in the north the boating season is extended and there is no need to heat the housing load much and the rise of the water surface when glaciers are merely positive news if I only think of Finland.

Link Finland Has the Cleanest Air in the World, Report Finds
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/country-with-worlds-cleanest-air-finland/


We also have no hurricanes that have increased the warming of the climate. So all right when you do not think broadly, so I'm trying to take it easier...

But doesn't Finland have high rates of suicide and alcoholism? You have to wonder about a people that like to bake themselves while whipping their bodies with branches then dash outside and roll in a snowbank. ;-)

 

[dhays]

I will also point out that my wife and I only had enough kids to replace us when we die. My parents did the same and likely my kids will do the same as well.

 

[BruceK]

I will also point out that my wife and I only had enough kids to replace us when we die. My parents did the same and likely my kids will do the same as well.

That seems a much more sensible solution than suicide by poison advocated by FF, who must so missing OTDE he seeks to make HC the new OTDE.

 

[swampu]

This. So much. All the naysaying and effort spent trying to piss all over anything that attempts to improve things by taking a different approach. Electric cars, yeesh, the bellyaching from some about that.



One could apply that same fear of change to all kinds of social factors. None of which would ever have any direct impact on their miserably ignorant little lives. But they'll rail mightily against it, no matter what it is. It's different, it's not what WE BELIEVE! Etc, etc... Pathetic.

[emoji106][emoji106]I’ve been getting change shoved down my throat from the last generation my whole life! I’m 43, they over fished the gulf when they were young so now they tell me what to catch, how many and how I should be ashamed of wanting more, they tell me I shouldn’t drive a full size car, they say I should be ashamed of my self for burning 8 cylinders of diesel, I have to buy an overpriced pos hybrid. 5 pages and I still don’t see a solution,
My solution would be simple, instead of trying to shame people into going back into a dirt hut, empower people to use da brain and figure out solutions [emoji106][emoji106]

 

[Bill & Stella]

With all due respect, Bill & Stella, I think you missed the gist of that study. It says that a person's reproductive choices are important because each offspring (and their offspring, for four generations), is responsible for adding 58M tons of carbon AT THE CURRENT RATE of using carbon. IOW, consider your reproductive choices AS WELL AS everything else you're doing to try to reduce your carbon footprint. Put another way, if we massively reduce the carbon footprint of all humans, then we also massively reduce the carbon footprint of their offspring's four generations.

Brian, I hoped you wouldn't notice that. Also, of course, the following generation may decide to not have any children. So instead of all our efforts being cancelled by the babies being born before 9:00 AM each day it may be before 10:00 Am.

 

[JustBob]

I really don't understand the concept of overpopulation, in practical terms on our planet. Seems like these are people that never get out of Los Angeles? Fly across the USA. What do you see? Some cities, mostly uninhabited land. Even fly down the length of California, with 25 million odd people (ha ha ha), mostly land.

Read this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...lf-planet-s-population-lives-just-1-land.html

1968, Paul Erlich, The Population Bomb. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/book-incited-worldwide-fear-overpopulation-180967499/

Heaps of rubbish.

 

[dhays]

Supporting a population isn't just about finding the space to build a house, hut, or humongous mansion. There needs to be enough energy, food, and water to support that population. The trick is to find that energy, food, and water while sustaining the planet that we live on.

 

[ancora]

"Run Forest, Run" as trees are on the move to escape, you guessed it, "global warmin." Accordin' to Poplar, er, Popular Science, "Trees are migrating west to escape climate change." Yep, Purdue University professor Songlin Fei claims that increasing temps and rainfall have provoked 86 U.S. tree species to make like a tree and leave.In a study published by Scientific Advances, they found that firs are planting themselves further north, supposedly seeking cooler temps. But other species "have experienced a westward shift...a trend that is stronger for saplings than adult trees."
Go west young saps? Maybe oaks and maples didn't get the global warming memo. What's next, "Tree-Xing signs? Clearly, the climate change crowd needs to spruce up their theories.

 

[BruceK]

Rancour is here,and reasoned discussion is replaced by cant. Like OTDE before it, HC is in trouble

 

[North Baltic sea]

Hi,

I hope new innovations will soon come up with a solution to the problems, as people generally do not want to take responsibility for their actions and see no possibility of acting differently.

Exaples here's an innovative diesel that reduces greenhouse gas emissions by up to 90% in addition to sizable reductions in tailpipe emissions.

https://www.neste.com/companies/products/renewable-fuels/neste-my-renewable-diesel/key-benefits

At present, production is only in three refineries in Finland, Holland (Rotterdam) and Singapore, in 2015 Global production of renewable diesel in the world accounts for 6.4 million tonnes of lower greenhouse gas emissions.

Read more about the test results from
https://www.neste.com/sites/default...btl_renewable_diesel_in_boat_use_by_boote.pdf



Second exaples Wärtsilä
https://www.renewableenergymagazine...ading-plant-to-significantly-reduce-20180917/

NBs

 

[O C Diver]

I really don't understand the concept of overpopulation, in practical terms on our planet. Seems like these are people that never get out of Los Angeles? Fly across the USA. What do you see? Some cities, mostly uninhabited land. Even fly down the length of California, with 25 million odd people (ha ha ha), mostly land.

Read this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...lf-planet-s-population-lives-just-1-land.html

1968, Paul Erlich, The Population Bomb. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/book-incited-worldwide-fear-overpopulation-180967499/

Heaps of rubbish.

So are you saying you can't believe there is such a thing as overpopulation or we haven't reached it yet? Assuming you can rationalize the concept, what indicators would tell you when we reach that point?

Ted

 

[FF]

"Rancour is here,and reasoned discussion is replaced by cant. Like OTDE before it, HC is in trouble".

"That seems a much more sensible solution than suicide by poison advocated by FF,"

There is no L/R politics in assuming posters that wish a billion or two folks would simply die ,should help their cause .

Some used to scream "think globally act locally" , this IS their chance to put up or shut up.

 

[BruceK]

"That seems a much more sensible solution than suicide by poison advocated by FF,"(quote from BruceK)

There is no L/R politics in assuming posters that wish a billion or two folks would simply die ,should help their cause ...

FF, you are such an extreme thinking kind of chap.
While people in areas which cannot support their population may well perish in a Malthus envisaged way,overpopulation is way better approached by less reproduction than by the death of "a billion or two folks". There will be economic ramifications, but it beats the alternative. It`s truly up to the people of the world, not Governments, to make a choice.If it`s the wrong choice,the predicament of the world will worsen.
Now FF, let`s see what catastrophe you can draw out of that.

 

[AusCan]

The only reason that most countries fail to reign in population growth is that the capitalist system depends on it.

China is the only country that manages a growing economy without population growth. Many western countries rely on immigration to get the growth.

It’s time to give up measuring our success simply with economic growth.

 

[Boat]

Perpetual Growth Economics goes hand in hand with overpopulation.

Not a great link but it popped up, find better if interested.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/myth-of-perpetual-growth-is-killing-america-2012-06-12

 

[Boat]

"Rancour is here,and reasoned discussion is replaced by cant. Like OTDE before it, HC is in trouble".

"That seems a much more sensible solution than suicide by poison advocated by FF,"

There is no L/R politics in assuming posters that wish a billion or two folks would simply die ,should help their cause .

Some used to scream "think globally act locally" , this IS their chance to put up or shut up.

There are people who think that the population of the earth should only be around 3.5 million hunter-gatherers, tops.

I would be pleased if people would follow the law and pay their own way.

Some people think the Sixth Mass Extinction is going on around us and we don't know where or when it will end or if humans will be alive when it ends.


Real shortages of basics like fresh, clean water and phosphorus fertilizers seem likely. If not them then others. Wars have been fought for less.

 

[Bill & Stella]

(quote) "While people in areas which cannot support their population may well perish in a Malthus envisaged way,overpopulation is way better approached by less reproduction than by the death of "a billion or two folks". There will be economic ramifications, but it beats the alternative. It`s truly up to the people of the world, not Governments, to make a choice.If it`s the wrong choice,the predicament of the world will worsen.
Now FF, let`s see what catastrophe you can draw out of that. __________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia"

Bruce: Killing billions to decrease population? No worry's mate, nature and dysfunctional world politics will take care of that and it won't be a pretty picture. The tipping point, which was 100's of years in the future a few years past, is rapidly creeping down towards the end of this century.

Yes, birth control, preferable by moral education, not regulation, is needed to save our civilization from ecological destruction.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/sci...
http://iopscience.iop.org/articl...
https://www.nytimes.com/interact...
Moral Enhancement
​
The immediate problem is " people in areas which cannot support their population" will result in increasing mass migrations that can stress, even destroy, existing stable societies. The caravan is only the nose of a very big ugly camel.

 

[BruceK]

Perpetual Growth Economics goes hand in hand with overpopulation...

Ah yes, the holy grail of "growing the economy".

Is there no point where the economy reaches a nice balance and we can stop "growing". Which is is what Australia does, it imports people and the increasing demand drives growth. If the merry go round falters, what happens?

 

[BruceK]

Bill and Stella, I think we are in furious agreement. I hope you understood it was FF, not I, suggesting the death of one or two million people would help, and to be fair I think(or hope) he was only using it as an absurdity argument.