Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-29-2013, 07:00 PM   #1
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Beauty, symmetry and personal perception

Moderator note: These following posts have been split off from this discussion: Trawler economy at twice the speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Beauty is not just an opinion or notion. It's a learned discipline taught in schools by others that know and understand the elements of art.
Really. So an artist who didn't go to school is incapable of creating beautiful art? That's just dumb, sorry. Some of the most beautiful art on the planet was created by people who didn't go to school nor were they formally taught anything by anybody.

Beauty is whatever a person thinks is beautiful. I have never taken an art class in my life and I know exactly what I think is beautiful and what is not by my standards. And it is very much a matter of opinion. Monet's paintings are beautiful in my opinion and I have travelled to France just to see them in the Musee d'Orsay. Picasso's paintings are rubbish in my opinion and I wouldn't cross the street to see one.

The schooner Bluenose and the J-class sloop Endeavour are gorgeous vessels and I didn't have to go to school to learn this. I thought the Bluenose was beautiful the first time I saw a picture of her when I was about 8.
__________________
Advertisement

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 07:39 PM   #2
Guru
 
Tad Roberts's Avatar
 
City: Flattop Islands
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Blackfish
Vessel Model: custom
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 707
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Why are ALL the other passage makers in the world conforming to normal aspect ratios?
They're not "normal", they're fat!.....

They aren't all conforming, myself, George Buehler, Guy Saillard, Matt Marsh, Long Cours/Michel Joubert, Vripack, Tim Barnett, and Ron Holland are just some of the designers offering alternatives. The longer and narrower passagmaker designs started at the end of WWII with L. Francis Herreshoff introducing Marco Polo.



Quote:
The function of most boats is to sell. Windhorse is not saddled w that extreme limitation.
On the contrary, building(and voyaging in) Windhorse is part of a very smart and careful maketing campaign. Yes, millions were spent (and written off as R&D) for the sale of eight 64's and now a 97'. There may be a few more really big ones built yet......
__________________

Tad Roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 08:11 PM   #3
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,719
Marin wrote;

"Really. So an artist who didn't go to school is incapable of creating beautiful art? That's just dumb," So you didn't read my post Marin.

Marin also says "Beauty is whatever a person thinks is beautiful.". Well coming from a person that thinks his beautiful boat isn't attractive and drives a Land Rover I can see you coming to that conclusion. Naive Marin naive. We aren't all born that gifted but some have talent ... others don't. Just because they see something does not mean it's beautiful.

And as proof from another angle beauty won't stand as such w/o ugly. Beauty is a relative thing. Beauty is just an image in somebody's mind and it takes a gifted and trained mind to identify the beauty or ugliness of the image. I know you like black and white things but much of the world isn't B&W. We all know something about beauty and some know a great deal. But an emotional knee jerk reaction to an image does not make that image beautiful.


TAD,

I think "fat" is normal and you are designing boats that are skinny. Thank you thank you as most boats I also consider fat.

Re "boats to sell" I stand corrected. I thought Windhorse was just a personal project that got noticed.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 08:28 PM   #4
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad Roberts View Post
They're not "normal", they're fat!.....

They aren't all conforming, myself, George Buehler, Guy Saillard, Matt Marsh, Long Cours/Michel Joubert, Vripack, Tim Barnett, and Ron Holland are just some of the designers offering alternatives. The longer and narrower passagmaker designs started at the end of WWII with L. Francis Herreshoff introducing Marco Polo.





On the contrary, building(and voyaging in) Windhorse is part of a very smart and careful maketing campaign. Yes, millions were spent (and written off as R&D) for the sale of eight 64's and now a 97'. There may be a few more really big ones built yet......
I love many of your designs, they are woks of art. The long skinny passagmaker especially so, but i wouldnt look good in one being a fat guy
__________________
Britt
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 09:44 PM   #5
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Just because they see something does not mean it's beautiful.
So who determines for the world's population what is beautiful? You?


Quote:
But an emotional knee jerk reaction to an image does not make that image beautiful.
Of course it does. To that person. Whether you think it's beautiful is totally irrelevant to that person. What you are saying is that everyone should find the same things beautiful because beauty is defined by a set of rules and guidelines you learn in school. That's black and white.

You try to equate everything to engineering with its rules and formulas. I personally find that a staggeringly limited, narrow minded, and unimaginative way to view the world. Sorry, but when it comes to emotional things, like what's beautiful and what's not, there aren't any rules and formulas. All there are are 7.06 billion (the world's population) subjective, emotional opinions about what constitutes beauty.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 10:21 PM   #6
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,719
Marin asks,

"So who determines for the world's population what is beautiful? You?"

I know something about beauty .. yes. But only 10 to 30% of what a person would know that really knows about what is beautiful and what is not. If you gathered together a committee chosen group of people well known for their expertise in fields like Jewelry design, architecture of numerous types of structures, sculpture, Photography, industrial design, art teachers, painters and possibly interior decorators and observed what they chose consistently as beautiful you would see/find what is beautiful. And after a long period of time making such observations yourself you would advance your own ability to recognize beauty when you see it.

I personally think the ability to recognize beauty is about 75% learned and 25% innate. But one dosn't know beauty by just successfully passing through the womb.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 10:32 PM   #7
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
But one dosn't know beauty by just successfully passing through the womb.
Sure you do. It's an established fact that one of the major elements of an object that makes it, including another human, beautiful to a person, is symmetry. But they don't teach that in school. Little kids are attracted to other little kids to no small degree because of the symmetry they see, not because they read about it in their Dick and Jane books or saw it on Sesame Street. We're born with that instinctive attraction to symmetry. It as prevalent in tribes with no formal education as it is in highly educated societies.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 11:49 PM   #8
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tad Roberts View Post
On the contrary, building(and voyaging in) Windhorse is part of a very smart and careful marketing campaign.
This is the most accurate statement about Windhorse in this thread, in my opinion.
Northern Spy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 11:51 PM   #9
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,719
What does symmetry have to do w beauty. I think an image is more interesting if it is NOT symmetrical. Being "drawn to" something also has nothing to do w beauty.

I DO hope your'e feeling better tomorrow and not talking this nonsense.

I inserted your favorite avatar.

Eric
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 11:58 PM   #10
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Sure you do. It's an established fact that one of the major elements of an object that makes it, including another human, beautiful to a person, is symmetry. But they don't teach that in school. Little kids are attracted to other little kids to no small degree because of the symmetry they see, not because they read about it in their Dick and Jane books or saw it on Sesame Street. We're born with that instinctive attraction to symmetry. It as prevalent in tribes with no formal education as it is in highly educated societies.
When i was a little tiny kid i had a playmate that lived a few houses away. We were maybe all or 6-7. We were very attracted to each other and when we could we would go get in a box out of sight to play our favorite game, doctor. I assure you the attraction had nothing to do with symmetry just normal sexual curiosity. I was so sad when she moved away...
Currently it is commonly taught that good looking people have symmetry but history and observation teaches us that isnt so. Symmetry may make one pretty or handsome but to be a beautiful you must also exhibit poise and have presentation, posture, bearing. I'm sure you have seem many beautiful landscapes many of which were not symmetrical at all but still beautiful.
__________________
Britt
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 12:04 AM   #11
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,996
Good God!!!! Too much information....

__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 12:18 AM   #12
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Beauty is whatever a person thinks is beautiful. I have never taken an art class in my life and I know exactly what I think is beautiful and what is not by my standards. And it is very much a matter of opinion. Monet's paintings are beautiful in my opinion and I have travelled to France just to see them in the Musee d'Orsay. Picasso's paintings are rubbish in my opinion and I wouldn't cross the street to see one.
What a sad and unfulfilling mindset guaranteed to stifle growth and/or keep new doors of perception from opening.

Perhaps if you did take classes to better understand art you just might gain something. Art doesn't have to be Monet pretty, it can be harsh, ugly, confusing, disgusting, and purposefully hard to interpret.

When you are talking with someone, are you really listening to what they have to say, or are you planning in your head what you are going to tell them next? When looking at art you have to drop your dogma at the door, and open yourself to understanding the artists way of seeing. Being a good listener helps, as does an empathetic nature. Good luck with that.
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 12:22 AM   #13
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
What does symmetry have to do w beauty.
If you do not know the role symmetry plays in the human perception of beauty then beauty is a subject you you might not want to tackle. Perhaps stay focused on the engineering side of things. The fact you feel it is "nonsense" speaks volumes.

There are about a bazillion published studies that show that symmetry is a significant factor that contributes to our perception of beauty. This does not mean that everything has to be same on both sides. Symmetry also has to do with the perception of overall balance of appearance. And balance of composition -- or an object--- is not tied to an equal division of its components.

Based on your approach to things I would not expect you to agree with or even understand this sort of thing. But I work with a bunch of extremely talented graphic artists who could talk you into insanity on what constitutes beauty, why we perceive some things as beautiful and some things not so much, and explain in painful detail exactly how symmetry and balance play roles in this perception. The same thing applies to the videographers I work with who instinctively can compose their shots to be "beautiful." While some of this ability can be taught, to be truly great at it, a huge degree of it must be instinct, if you will, that you're born with.

Were you to talk with these guys, i think you would find that you are quite a ways off the mark with the theories about beauty you have expressed so far.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 12:23 AM   #14
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
I'm sure you have seem many beautiful landscapes many of which were not symmetrical at all but still beautiful.
Hee Hee Heeeeee!
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 12:32 AM   #15
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Murray--- if you look at your avatar photo you will see--- if you have the ability to do so--- that in fact it is symmetrical in terms of its balance.

The most simplistic explanation is that the wave in the left foreground, the rocks and the angle of the wave and rocks up and to the left toward the trees at the far left are balanced by the mountain and cloud on the right. While the elements of the photo are not evenly divided in half, the composition is symmetrical in balance and that is what makes the photo beautiful, or at least pleasing, to most viewers.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 12:46 AM   #16
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Murray--- if you look at your avatar photo you will see--- if you have the ability to do so--- that in fact it is symmetrical in terms of its balance.
My ability to "see" and "understand" the photo in my avatar is helped somewhat by the fact that it is a 4x5 contact print of one of my negatives, and was made by me in my own darkroom with a print developer of my own concoction from raw chemicals.

I call this kind of composition 'balanced imbalance'.

I believe the studies you are referring to regarding symmetry and beauty dealt with human faces, not fine art.
__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 12:56 AM   #17
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,719
Marin,
My understanding of beauty may be imperfect but your reading skills may be short of that in that you seem to overlook the fact that I only claimed to know 10 to 30 % of what's necessary to fully understand beauty. Symmetrical composition can work for the artist in that it draws full attention to the subject when the artist wishes to do so and in many other ways.

But I know you know something about composition as I've seen many of your pictures and you have seen mine so nobody's fool's anybody on that score.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder only in that an image has been seen but if the mind is educated in the elements of beauty he will recognize it as such.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 01:04 AM   #18
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,719
Murray I think your avatar is balanced By imbalanced elements. The imbalance in your photo is of mass. The heavy dark relatively massive part of the photo is decisively to the left but the action is in the cascading water to the right. That's the way I see balance in your photo. There's a balance of foreground, middle ground and background. But the mass and action are quite imbalanced but ther-in lies the element of interest.
But I can't see how any of this is beautiful or not.
Most perceived beauty is the result of familiarity regarding some association w something liked from the past. But that's liking something not understanding or perceiving beauty.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 01:05 AM   #19
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayM View Post
I believe the studies you are referring to regarding symmetry and beauty dealt with human faces, not fine art.
The human face is a big part of it but it applies to all art as well. As I said, I work with a group of guys here and in St. Louis who each get well over six figures a year for their art and graphics abilities and experience. To say nothing of our award-winning still photographers, as in the Nikon Award for best industrial photographers in America as well as other stuff.

If I had a dollar for every time they've explained to me why a particular composition, animation sequence, or photo works I'd have that Fleming 55 we'd like instead of this pathetic, tired old GB. And symmetry and balance, including " unbalanced balance" as you call it, is a big part of what they talk about.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2013, 01:10 AM   #20
Guru
 
MurrayM's Avatar
 
City: Kitimat, North Coast BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Badger
Vessel Model: 30' Sundowner Tug
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Murray I think your avatar is balanced By imbalanced elements. The imbalance in your photo is of mass. The heavy dark relatively massive part of the photo is decisively to the left but the action is in the cascading water to the right. That's the way I see balance in your photo.
Short, sweet, and works for me
__________________

__________________
"The most interesting path between two points is not a straight line" Murray Minchin
MurrayM is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012