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Old 01-30-2013, 12:46 PM   #41
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Walt then a 62' Nordhavn can't be beautiful because it's not balanced?

Here's a balanced boat. Is it beautiful?
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:50 PM   #42
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Eric:

I've spent considerable time crawling around on a Nordhavn 62 and, no, I don't think it's beautiful. The boat in your photo, however, is good looking in my opinion but not beautiful.

This is an example of what I consider to be beautiful.

(And God forgive me for this next comment...) I think "Willy" is a beautiful little "cruiser!")
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:37 PM   #43
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I think you are still missing the point though. This girl is following rules, in that she is interpreting music which was created by other people, and those other people were following the accepted "rules" which allow their music to be considered classical music.
She plays other people's music and she composes her own. When she started playing at age four safe was not playing other people's music because she didn't know any. She was making up her own melodies based on what she was hearing in her head. And while the were certainly not symphonies her mother told me that as melodies, they "worked."

I'm thinking you need a hell of a lot more exposure to the world if you want to truly understand art and beauty.. It's fascinating.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:53 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by hollywood8118 View Post

But .. when it is all over and the dust settles...

The FPB boats are still ugly!


HOLLYWOOD
Very funny but TRUE! (IMO)
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:00 PM   #45
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Marin I didn't know having a "six figure income" qualifies one to know beauty when they see it.
And that is exactly what I thought you would write. It is the viewpoint of a numbers person, not a creative one.

You are exactly correct. Pay does not qualify anyone to be anything. It is a measurement of value and appreciation. Monet became a very wealthy person because of the appreciation his patrons had for his art. What he was paid did not make him a great artist, it was a measurement of how great he was.

The same is true of the graphic artists and photographers I work with. They are paid a hell of a lot of money because the company recognizes the value of what thy do, a value that is based on their creative, interpretive, and artistic talents.

It's amusing to read Murray allude that these guys are little more than " sign painters." What it tells me is that he has a minimal grasp on the real world of creating art, because if he did he would understand that what these guys do --- and I'm talking about their day jobs, not what they do on their own--- is every bit as creative and individualistic as what he is attempting to do.

The only difference is that a hell of a lot of people recognize the artistic talent our guys have so they pay them a hell of a lot of money to stay here and apply it on our behalf. And even though all of them came from a " struggling artist" life to start with, they stay here because their artistic talent and creative abilities are putting their kids through college and paying the mortgage. And, they love the challenge the job puts on their creative and artistic abilities.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:51 PM   #46
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I'm thinking you need a hell of a lot more exposure to the world if you want to truly understand art and beauty.
Funny comment considering how limiting your definition of good art is, and yet another case of you "putting your foot in it" without any knowledge of what my life experience may be.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:57 PM   #47
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I think I know where you're coming from, Eric. What you are attempting to explain and pass on as the requirements for beauty are in fact the accepted rules (learned) for the use of engineering disciplines such as geometry, math, structural engineering. etc. Your definitions of what creates beauty, really apply more to structural design and efficiency. And with that, I would agree with you! Beauty, however, is outside those parameters and is a very subjective thing. In it's in the eye of the beholder, for which there are no rules or formulas. Many people consider the "Mona Lisa" to be beautiful. I am not one of those people.
Walt, You said:

"What you are attempting to explain and pass on as the requirements for beauty are in fact the accepted rules (learned) for the use of engineering disciplines such as geometry, math, structural engineering. etc."

After reading this I thought of something. Lets relate to the little girl that Marin keeps sighting. An engineer can not just hear the "rules" or see them. They may see them but the rule needs to be explained to be used over and over again. On the other hand the little girl at four years old was using the rules but she didn't know they exisited. Because she could hear them she then formed other music and it was based on the rules without knowing it. Some folks in music have more of a talent for this than others and are said to play by ear. A good example of a music rule that everyone can relat to would be in church when you sing a Hymn and the last notes and words are "Amen". That is called resolving a cord. From a dissonoance (unstable sound) to a consonance (a final or stable sound). Now some folks do not hear the difference, but for most it is pleasing and completes the song. As one progress in music this is taught in Music Theory. But the rule applied long before the student knew it existed. The example is for Western Tonal Music. The rule does not apply to sya music in China or the Far East.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:09 PM   #48
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Greetings,
I did not post the elephant artist to make a joke. I posted to prove a point. Who determines what art is. Surely not the elephant's peers. One can call anything "art" and it seems that the simple label qualifies a particular piece as art. I think, as was mentioned, _____ is in the eye of the beholder. Fill in the blank with your favorite noun be it art, beauty, idea, boat or philosophy. A mathematician may see beauty in numbers, an engineer in blueprints, a farmer in a mature field of crops or whatever label you choose to put on the seer and the seen.
Some see progressive jazz as an art form. I think it's crap. Do I have a degree in music or ANY education in that direction? Nope but as Mr. alormaria stated "I know what I like". Please don't throw out that line of "You obviously don't UNDERSTAND progressive jazz." I don't have to understand turkey to know I don't like the taste.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:20 PM   #49
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Greetings,
Mr. JD. Sya music?
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:09 PM   #50
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I'm sure glad you mentioned that RT as I assumed it was a joke because you're so good at jokes.

Now I'm beginning to doubt myself.

My mother was an artist and an art teacher for 40 or so years. I grew up surrounded by artists and listening to artists. My father was a fur trader, newspaperman, a magazine editor and finally a publisher. So many of their friends spent their lives in art, emersed in it getting exposed to the tenth power in it and I've observed and listened to them over long periods of time. That does NOT make me an artist by any measure but I've seen and heard these people relate to art and beauty.

You can study art and understand the elements of art and get much better at producing or creating art.

I know there are people that don't know beauty when they see it and people that can develop and escalate the skill of recognizing beauty. But that may not be the question here.

The question that I see for myself is can we break down beauty into it's basic elements like we do art ..... light, form/shape, line, contrast, color, texture and visual motion as we do in art. Beauty it seems to me at this moment can be known by association, variety and much time but perhaps cannot be aynalized by the element method we use for art and not as a discipline we can study with the typical achedemic methods.

But I not only contend that there is a wide range of people's ability to recognize beauty but that people can increase their ability to do so but many people who are smart or very smart in other things just don't perceive beauty with any understanding. So perhaps beauty is something we can identify, relate to and share but not understand.

And for my own abilities I'm quite talented among typical people at the office, on the street or perhaps on this forum but among the artists I talked of above I'd better keep my mouth shut and ears open or I'd likely loose a great deal of whatever respect I had.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:26 PM   #51
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:30 PM   #52
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Marin can define for himself what good art is, just like I can have my definition of what it takes to be an artist as stated earlier.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:32 PM   #53
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I'm not going to bother with this thread any more but I wanted to finish my bit by saying we had our recording session with Gloria today and it was just about the coolest thing I've ever been involved with in my life.

It was virtually impossible to believe she is only 16 years old. It was like dealing with a seasoned professional musician and while this was her first time recording in a full-up recording studio situation she took to it like she'd been doing this for decades. Incredible thing to see and participate in. Makes one realize how trivial things like this forum discussion actually are.

The composer of the score who is also the music director for this project and is an extremely talented and experienced musician/band leader/performer himself, was equally blown away. This girl is destined to become one of the world's greats, not just in classical music but in jazz and rock, which is what our score sort of is. In addition to her ongoing classical performances she has also joined with two local professional musicians and they are playing jazz/swing, as in Django Reinhardt/Stephani Grappelli.

While her main focus is the violin which she started playing when she was four years old she has just started teaching herself electric guitar. Absolutely amazing person. It is as much fun to watch her play as it is to listen to her play.

Next week, we shoot the video part of this music video with her.

This is Gloria (taken in Washington DC last summer).
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