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Old 01-30-2013, 01:16 AM   #21
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Getting fine art advice from graphic artists is something like getting classical music explained by TV commercial score writers. They'll hate that, but being an artist is an 'all in' solo endeavour, while being a graphic artist is in large part doing what somebody else tells you to do.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:20 AM   #22
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder only in that an image has been seen but if the mind is educated in the elements of beauty he will recognize it as such.
That makes no sense to me at all. If a person sees something and thinks it's beautiful, then it is beautiful to that person and they recognize it as such. There is no requirement to understand why it's beautiful in order to think something is beautiful It's an emotional recognition.

Now you can analyze why something is beautiful if you choose to. But that analysis is not necessary to feel something is beautiful. Most people do not analyze what they see, be it art, a photo, or another person. They simply respond to what's in front of them and never bother with an "analysis." And an analysis will not change their minds if they think what they're looking at is not beautiful, or is beautiful.

You can explain all the reasons why something should be beautiful, but that will not change a person's initial impression because the perception of beauty is at heart an emotion.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:28 AM   #23
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Marin,

Did you miss, or are you ignoring post #12?
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:38 AM   #24
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...but being an artist is an 'all in' solo endeavour, while being a graphic artist is in large part doing what somebody else tells you to do.
That tells me you don't know much about what an artist really is then. To think that because a person works for a company they are not an artist is bullsh*t. And doing what someone else tells them to do is, in fact, even more challenging than wandering around in the woods taking happy snaps of trees. Because these guys have to take the subject they are given and turn it into something beautiful and compelling..

Michelangelo was a "company" artist, too. He did what his clients told him to do. He was hired to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. He didn't just wander in off the street and start painting. He had "bosses."

Your assumption about the graphics artists and photographers here is a dangerous assumption to make if you don't know the people involved. The fact they are graphic artists for a living dos not mean that they are not artists in your definition of the word. One of them, now retired, is one of the top aviation artists, as in oil paintings, in the country. Or he was, I don't know if he's still active.

And our senior still photographer, Ed Turner, has won countless artistic awards for the photography he does outside the company. His recent coffee table book on the making of the Dreamliner is already a collector's item and his calendars of shots he takes all over the world on his own are absolutely stunning.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:44 AM   #25
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Leonardo di Vince was a "company" artist, too. He did what his clients told him to do. He was hired to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. He didn't just wander in off the street and start painting. He had "bosses."
If you had taken fine art classes, you'd know Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel, not Da Vinci.

Da Vinci, and Michelangelo had patrons for sure, but had them only because they were first and foremost artists of formidable skill, and were given the freedom to explore as yet untrod ground.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:02 AM   #26
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Marin,

Did you miss, or are you ignoring post #12?
I have to work tomorrow and need my beauty sleep, so I'll let you think about it for a while.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:35 AM   #27
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If you had taken fine art classes, you'd know Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel, not Da Vinci.
Yeah, I knew it was wrong right as I hit Submit. I'd been thinking about the Mona Lisa but that wasn't a contract job (so far as I know). So I switched to the Sistine Chapel, which was. I made the artist change but you beat me to it.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:09 AM   #28
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Marin,

Did you miss, or are you ignoring post #12?
Yes, I read 75. And I've seen that explanation of art, or variations and elements of it, about a zillion times. I have no quarrel with it in general, as far as it goes.

But my discussion with Eric is not about art but has to do with his interpretation of beauty and his basic contention that beauty is not an emotional thing or a matter of opinion but is subject to rules and principles, and must be taught, like engineering, to be understood.

I maintain that this is not correct.

Tomorrow I am directing a recording session of an original music score featuring a 16 year old violinist who earlier this year in Washington, DC came in third in the world in the category of young violinists. And then next week we shoot the music video that features her. This is a girl that began playing music on her own at age four. Sure, she's been taking lessons and still does, but today she plays as the featured solo violinist with symphony orchestras including the Seattle Symphony. She also plays jazz, and our score is rock. She is absolutely phenomenal.

Now this is music, not art or photography or boat design. But my point is she was born with this innate ability and at age four recognized beauty in music and acted on it. On her own. No parental pressure or even guidance. No schooling, no formulas, no beauty "rules," simply an instinctive understanding of beauty and a desire and ability to create it.

I work with a girl like this and then read about how beauty is a structured, unemotional thing based on rules that one has to learn in order to "understand" beauty, and that's the only way to truly know if something is beautiful or not, and that people are not born with an instinctive recognition of beauty, and I find it absolutely baffling that anyone could adhere to that belief.

I don't expect people to change. Eric's an engineer and his world will always be numbers and formulas and rules and things you can teach and learn. No room for emotion or instinct in engineering and perhaps that's a good thing. I don't know.

But that's not my world and I am eternally grateful that it isn't.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:30 AM   #29
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I think you are still missing the point though. This girl is following rules, in that she is interpreting music which was created by other people, and those other people were following the accepted "rules" which allow their music to be considered classical music.

Do people write symphonies of distinction without any musical education? I doubt it.

Just because somebody is proficient at moving paint around on a flat surface, or coming up with pleasing compositions doesn't make them an artist. To discover new ways of seeing and/or interpreting the internal and external world in a way that pushes the envelope of discovery is what an artist is. Something Leonardo and Michelangelo did in spades.

Do you know the names of any sign painters (the graphic artists of their day) from the mid 1400's to the early 1500's?
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:48 AM   #30
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Gosh Guys,

I have learned more about symmetry, composition, imbalance than I ever new was possible from just this one topic.

But .. when it is all over and the dust settles...

The FPB boats are still ugly!


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Old 01-30-2013, 10:06 AM   #31
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I know a lot about art, but I know what I like.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:11 AM   #32
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Marin I didn't know having a "six figure income" qualifies one to know beauty when they see it.

Marin wrote;

"But my discussion with Eric is not about art but has to do with his interpretation of beauty and his basic contention that beauty is not an emotional thing or a matter of opinion but is subject to rules and principles, and must be taught, like engineering, to be understood.

I maintain that this is not correct."

Firstly it's not my interpretation of beauty at all but my interpretation of who can recognize beauty when they see it. And secondly I've said all along one comes by the understanding of beauty from his/her genes/DNA as well as with extensive formal study. Why do you suppose they have art schools? Why study beauty if it's just a personal perception and not valid or invalid?

Last but not least if you don't think music is not art ......

OMG Murray something must be wrong .... now your'e "off the mark" too.

Hollywood would that be "fg pleasure boats? I know a bit about art but very little about acronyms.

alomaria,
We all know what we like, including Marin but liking has little to do w beauty. However most people will like what is really beautiful.

Marin actually said " Eric's an engineer and his world will always be numbers and formulas and rules and things you can teach and learn." Boy have I got you fooled Marin. I was an Industrial Education major (taught shop). But I tried to minor in music and did minor in art. So I have an engineering side but it may not be the strongest.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:21 AM   #33
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And this is why I switched majors from architecture to mechanical engineering. I was asked just one too many times, "What does this painting say to you?" As you may imagine my responses along the lines of, "It says the guy had a lot of yellow paint to get rid of." were not well received.

You either like it or you don't.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:27 AM   #34
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And this is why I switched majors from architecture to mechanical engineering. I was asked just one too many times, "What does this painting say to you?" As you may imagine my responses along the lines of, "It says the guy had a lot of yellow paint to get rid of." were not well received.

You either like it or you don't.
I went the other way...when engineers/marine engineers in particular were being laid off in mass back in the mid-70s, I switched to landscape architecture where "design", "composition", "art", "beauty", "balance", "symmetry"... ad nauseum were crammed down your throat in every class and project.

Marin is very correct about one thing for sure...these threads sure can be a lot more entertaining than informative!

PS...yes, that guy did have too much yellow paint!!!
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:31 AM   #35
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You try to equate everything to engineering with its rules and formulas. I personally find that a staggeringly limited, narrow minded, and unimaginative way to view the world. Sorry, but when it comes to emotional things, like what's beautiful and what's not, there aren't any rules and formulas. All there are are 7.06 billion (the world's population) subjective, emotional opinions about what constitutes beauty.
I agree!
I've seen (and so have you) buildings that conform with all the engineering rules, etc. that I wouldn't hit a dog in the ass with. Beauty has nothing to do with conformity to accepted standards, rules and formulas.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:46 AM   #36
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Greetings,
Mr. MM. Renaissance graphic artists? Sure...Ullise Aldrovandi, Baccio Baldini, Giovanni Antonio Dosio...
Italian Renaissance Artist Listing: A-L
WM was designed with the idea that form follows function IMHO. Is it beautiful? To SOME eyes. I don't need ANY education to determine what I like. Art appreciation? Gimme a break. For instance, what is the artist trying to convey in THIS scenario and what rules is he/she following?


"Just because somebody is proficient at moving paint around on a flat surface, or coming up with pleasing compositions doesn't make them an artist." Apparently it DOES!
The Elephant Art Gallery Are Elephant Paintings Art?
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:52 AM   #37
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The lack of hobby horsing in this sea state is beauty to me.


Compared to a Nordhavn 43 in a smaller sea state.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:59 AM   #38
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I personally think the ability to recognize beauty is about 75% learned and 25% innate. But one dosn't know beauty by just successfully passing through the womb.
I think I know where you're coming from, Eric. What you are attempting to explain and pass on as the requirements for beauty are in fact the accepted rules (learned) for the use of engineering disciplines such as geometry, math, structural engineering. etc. Your definitions of what creates beauty, really apply more to structural design and efficiency. And with that, I would agree with you! Beauty, however, is outside those parameters and is a very subjective thing. In it's in the eye of the beholder, for which there are no rules or formulas. Many people consider the "Mona Lisa" to be beautiful. I am not one of those people.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:21 PM   #39
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Murray--- if you look at your avatar photo you will see--- if you have the ability to do so--- that in fact it is symmetrical in terms of its balance.
.
Interesting comment and in the photographer's perception, absolutely correct! When you look at a photograph whos composition is extremely well done, it's balanced! Turn it 90 degrees to either side or even upside down and it's still balanced. That is indeed, a form of symmetry!
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:42 PM   #40
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Walt wrote;

"many people consider the "Mona Lisa" to be beautiful."

I think you could have equally said "most" and there's a reason for that. The Mona Lisa is beautiful. The fact that so many people (artists incl) think it's beautiful could/may probably confirm that it is wether they are experts or not. One person saying it's beautiful means little or nothing especially if they have no art training. But in this case one may not be able to argue w millions.

If you select 100 pictures and paintings and present them to people w a great deal of art knowledge and experience and ask them which one of the 50 pairs is more beautiful .......... then ask a like number of basically artless people they will probably on average will give similar answers. This example is subject to personal likes and dislikes but should sort-of average out.

BUT the significant thing is that the artists would know what images were beautiful and could predict which would be chosen and the laypeople would be able to choose beauty more often than not. The artist's would know because they had good DNA and training and the laypeople would know "something" about it because of their DNA or intuitive capabilities.

So I think still the 75/25 rule (or something very similar) applies. That is that some "understanding" of beauty is w us at birth and more is learned w training and experience. Can't be any other way.
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