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Old 09-30-2016, 05:57 PM   #141
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I'm going to go with that AIMS 2,000w model. 6,000w start for 20 seconds should give me what I need. Just need to determine if I neel UL Listed for code compliance.
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Old 09-30-2016, 08:03 PM   #142
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I'm going to go with that AIMS 2,000w model. 6,000w start for 20 seconds should give me what I need. Just need to determine if I neel UL Listed for code compliance.
I have watched a lot of reviews and he is thorough, Samlex is one of the best.
Aims he does not recommend them.
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Old 09-30-2016, 11:15 PM   #143
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Old 10-01-2016, 01:13 AM   #144
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I'm not surprised at the 3000+ watt starting load on a 5K btu air conditioner. That is what it took to start the 5K AC on my boat.

If you look at the label on the compressor you'll see LRA followed by numbers. LRA is locked rotor amps. Unless the AC is equipped with some sort of start helper, this is pretty close to what it takes to start the thing.

I solved the problem on my boat by installing a Sepco Hard Start Capacitor. They are less than twenty bucks. It allowed me to start and run my boat AC on a Honda 1000. Come to think of it I put on on my 8k wall unit at home and ran it on a Honda 2000.
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Old 10-02-2016, 11:48 PM   #145
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I'm running off at the fingertips so you might want to pour a cuppa coffee!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
We too tend to shelter in place, even if that means some risk. Mostly because the gov't knuckleheads prevent returning in a timely fashion. "It's not safe..." Oh pleeeaasse... They don't realize that by sticking to a "zero risk" policy regarding and thus delaying return, they are encouraging folks to take large risks by staying put.
Exactly.


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Originally Posted by tcpip95 View Post
Bringing it back to what I was originally asking about...

I'm looking at the following:

KEY ASSUMPTIONS
1. window A/C will be 10k btu Frigidaire; consumes about 7.7 amps.
2. over an 8 hour period that will be about 565 ah w/12v battery bank.
3. I'm expecting to be able to run at about a 40% duty cycle, which would work out to be about 226 ah.
4. I factor in a margin of 50%
Today I tested (Killawatt meter) on the neighbor's Frigidaire 12k btu a/c unit. His starts at 120 watts and moves up to 1180 watts when cooling. Like mine his starts with just the fan then a minute later the cooling part kicks in.

Figure 1% for fan, and 10% for the cooling part when doing your math. Though the "real" math works at 7.7 amps I'd use 10 as a figure. You're going to have line-losses and there's your safety margin of error...

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Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
AIMs Inverter/Charger- These haven't developed a reputation in the boating market or the home solar panel market. I suspect AIMs is Chinese and all that that implies.
I have had and use an AIMS1000 (square wave) on Seaweed since 2010. It works fine. No issues.

It even will power my a/c unit. Mine is the simple dial Haier, not the one with a digital and remote. It works though. My Haier 5k btu will work from my batts using the AIMS1000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMS View Post
I just measured the 5k BTU Haier air conditioner in my daughters bedroom using my Fluke 376 (current and in-rush) & Fluke 289 (voltage).

AC Service Voltage = 119.22V
Running High AC = 4.1A (Ran 5 min before taking measurement)
In-Rush/Start Up 26.4A
I see different figures for certain. When my Haier starts (on 3.5 incidentally of 10) first the fan starts. That 45 watts. Then a minute later the cooling part kicked in. The AIMS1000 handled it. I did not see anyplace near 26A draw. It went to 455 and then climbed up to 485.

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Originally Posted by HopCar View Post
I solved the problem on my boat by installing a Sepco Hard Start Capacitor. They are less than twenty bucks. It allowed me to start and run my boat AC on a Honda 1000. Come to think of it I put on on my 8k wall unit at home and ran it on a Honda 2000.
The other "trick" is to have your a/c turned on when you start the genny. During start-up (for the generator) you get more than peak amps out. That brief time-span when it's putting out extra can sometimes get larger power draws started.

Anyway, that's my take.
I did upgrade to an pure sine wave AIMS1200 recently. The AIMS1000 would not power my microwave. It's a newer one with digital controls. Though the nuker came on and the turntable moved it didn't sound right and nothing heated.

Pure sine wave solved that issue.
Hey, a girl's got to have popcorn with her afternoon DVDs.

J, who almost has this decadence thing down to a science.

Good luck. I did want to share that AIMS works for me. I did burn up the first AIMS1000 after 55 weeks at anchor. I came into a dock and the first thing I did was plug in -- without unplugging the inverter. Smoke. Toasted that thing.

The AIMS1200 has a cord and automatically disconnects when a/c power is present. It automatically will restart too when the a/c goes out. It's a hefty unit. The good thing for me is that the inverter can be mounted in any direction. And it comes with a remote control so I can shut if off when starting Betsy (my engine)

The AIMS 1200 does not have a charger. I prefer separate units.

Walmart sells Group 27's that are 109A for $80 each. That's what I have in Seaweed and they are fine. I check them on the first of each month.
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Old 10-04-2016, 08:25 AM   #146
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I see different figures for certain. When my Haier starts (on 3.5 incidentally of 10) first the fan starts. That 45 watts. Then a minute later the cooling part kicked in. The AIMS1000 handled it. I did not see anyplace near 26A draw. It went to 455 and then climbed up to 485.
Without the proper measurement tools designed to capture in-rush you won't see it. A kilowatt meter won't capture in-rush. Your inverter likely have better in-rush specs than the Xantrex previously discussed which could only do double its rating for 0.3 seconds.



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I did burn up the first AIMS1000 after 55 weeks at anchor. I came into a dock and the first thing I did was plug in -- without unplugging the inverter. Smoke. Toasted that thing.
This is an unsafe and dangerous installation, if that is what happened..
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Old 10-04-2016, 05:08 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by BandB View Post
I thought I'd toss a bit of Fort Lauderdale requirements on installations of generators.

EMERGENCY GENERATORS
Requirements for Permitting and Installation
(OPTIONAL STANDBY FOR RESIDENTIAL USE)
Emergency generators must be submitted as a package with the following items:
1. Electrical Permit Application.
2. Two (2) copies of the Electrical Riser Diagram showing entire service, including:
a. transfer switch.
b. all conduit and wire sizes.
c. overcurrent protection of generator and equipment.
3. Two (2) copies of the Generator Specifications (usually supplied by the manufacturer).
Specifications must provide length, width and height of the generator to be used.
4. Two (2) copies of Site Plan (survey) highlighting the location of the generator:
a. showing exact location of proposed generator (minimum 5’ from building openings).
Exhaust must be minimum 10’ from building openings.
b. showing exact location of fuel tank (if applicable).
c. providing the dimensions of the distances between the proposed generator/fuel tank
and the side and rear property lines (set backs).
d. providing verification that generator will be installed at current base flood elevation
or above per FBC 3110.1.2 and FBC R301.2.4 FEMA.
Note: Mechanical equipment and generators cannot be closer than 5’ to the property
lines and 10’ to the water. Equipment can be no larger that 40 sq. ft. in area and
5’ in height.
5. A Building Permit Application is required if a slab is to be poured:
a. if the slab is existing or “prefab”, a building permit is not required.
b. the slab must be a minimum of 4” thick and comply with standards set forth by
FBC 1820.5.
c. specifications for generator anchorage for wind loads per FBC 1612.1.2.
Note: It is the responsibility of the contractor to verify that the soil bearing capacity
will support the slab and generator.
6. If natural or LP gas is used, a Plumbing Permit Application is required from a licensed
contractor.
7. Two(2) Isometric Rise Diagrams with plan view:
a. showing total length and type of piping and chart used to size gas system.
b. showing generator BTU rating.
8. If a non-self contained diesel fuel generator is proposed, a Mechanical Permit Application
is required. In addition, the plan showing diesel fuel holding tanks must be approved by EDP.
Note: Portable generators will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis.

That all seems pretty typical for a populous area. When you have a lot of people closely packed together, any corners you cut become an endangerment to others, and that's where your "freedom" ends in a civilized society.
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Old 10-04-2016, 05:28 PM   #148
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That all seems pretty typical for a populous area. When you have a lot of people closely packed together, any corners you cut become an endangerment to others, and that's where your "freedom" ends in a civilized society.
As it should, I think. Our contractor had no problem complying as the rules are well known locally. The generator suppliers even refer to one size as their Fort Lauderdale model, jokingly, as it's the largest legal here.
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Old 10-04-2016, 11:47 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMS View Post

This is an unsafe and dangerous installation, if that is what happened..
I failed to unplug... My error entirely after a year plus on the hook. I have a visual now though the 1k is now out of the system.

My AIMS1000 has three outlets to plug in items. Instead I took one cord and wired it into my AC panel. The plug part goes into one outlet on the inverter. Thus the whole boat has power available. The flaw was my user error. When I docked I should have shut off inverter AND unplugged that cord. Operator error for certain.

Since then, for maybe four years or so, I had a visual on the 30amp inlet of Seaweed. I recently "put to bed" the 1000 because I upgraded to a 1200. The old square wave is not in service. At some point I will probably swap it for something I want more...

I have a pure sine wave inverter now. It automatically switches on and off though I have a remote to shut it down manually.
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Old 10-05-2016, 01:38 AM   #150
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Janice, it seems the problem is in the plug-in connection you make and the hard-wired output you have to your AC panel. Having two AC sources feeding the panel simultaneously is dangerous. A switch that controls the power from only one source at a time would help. Know any friends with marine electrician skills?
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Old 10-05-2016, 07:18 AM   #151
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I failed to unplug... My error entirely after a year plus on the hook. I have a visual now though the 1k is now out of the system.

My AIMS1000 has three outlets to plug in items. Instead I took one cord and wired it into my AC panel. The plug part goes into one outlet on the inverter. Thus the whole boat has power available. The flaw was my user error. When I docked I should have shut off inverter AND unplugged that cord. Operator error for certain.

Since then, for maybe four years or so, I had a visual on the 30amp inlet of Seaweed. I recently "put to bed" the 1000 because I upgraded to a 1200. The old square wave is not in service. At some point I will probably swap it for something I want more...

I have a pure sine wave inverter now. It automatically switches on and off though I have a remote to shut it down manually.
The flaw is that this is considered an incorrect, unsafe and dangerous installation. Human error is quite often what leads us to the reason we have safety standards.

What you did is back feed the system negating any sort of proper source isolation or transfer switch. On land this is illegal. Line workers have died due to homeowners back-feeding generators in the exact manner you did with an inverter. It could also kill someone working on a dock pedestal when they assume the power is switched off.. Out on the water you can seemingly do what you wish but eventually you plug back in. No marine safety standard allows for what you did because it creates a safety issue and can create dangerous situations even up to the point of potentially resulting in a death..

If you want to wire a non-marine stand alone inverter, that is not built to marine UL458 standards (supplement SA), the best option is to wire it to its own dedicated outlets, clearly marked "INVERTER ONLY". While this means installing a few new outlets it is often far less expensive than a UL458 + Supplement SA marine inverter.

It is important to keep these outlets 100% isolated from the rest of the vessels AC systems. Still not the best practice to install a non-marine tested inverter but it prevents back-feeding the system and neutral/Earth bonding issues.

The other option is to install a proper isolation/transfer switch.

A marine inverter installation should always be installed with its own internal transfer switch or an external transfer switch that ensures the vessels neutral/white and Earth/green are bonded on the vessel only when the inverter is actually operational. Neutral/White and Earth/Green are then isolated, on-board the vessel, the split-second that transfer switch breaks..

When buying an inverter it is important that it meets UL458 + Supplement SA - Marine Power Converters/Inverters.

Many inverters are sold that meet UL458 (this should be a bare minimum) but most have never been tested to the marine supplement/portion of UL458...
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Old 10-05-2016, 07:51 AM   #152
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If you want to wire a non-marine stand alone inverter, that is not built to marine UL standards, the best option is to wire it to its own dedicated outlets, clearly marked "INVERTER ONLY"...

...The other option is to install a proper isolation/transfer switch.
Wouldn't your "other" option be the better one? A simple rotary switch

could select the source (shore or inverter) and the send power to just the circuits that would be appropriate for running on the inverter. For example, just the outlets but not the water heater or range.
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Old 10-05-2016, 08:07 AM   #153
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Wouldn't your "other" option be the better one? A simple rotary switch

could select the source (shore or inverter) and the send power to just the circuits that would be appropriate for running on the inverter. For example, just the outlets but not the water heater or range.
Yes a source selector would be the preferred option however isolating just the outlets, from the rest of the AC panel, gets into a whole other wiring job and many AC panels don't have the physical room to do that.
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Old 10-05-2016, 08:29 AM   #154
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tcpip95,


Sounds like you're heading toward a solution and wish you the best.

However, if your goal is to live there long term, I'd argue strongly to get on the board of your HOA, and get like minded people on there with you. Get things changed to be sensible. A restriction during an electrical outage is just stupid.

The problem with HOAs is there's often people on the board that have a lot of time, no brains, no skills, and just want to be in charge, telling people what to do. It's just the way it is. And, along with that, the benefits one gets with the HOA fees is horribly costly compared to just no HOA.

I live in an area where there are HOAs and condos on three sides of my neighborhood, and most of the friends I have that live in them don't like it. And some have rules way worse than you have.

As you can tell, I'm not a fan of HOAs. They often run like small governments with overzealous expenditures and gestapo rules. And speaking of governments, they are just as bad or worse. It's swung from poor regulation to over regulation. Sure, we need to protect neighbors from doing stupid things, but has gotten to the point that the neighbors will do nothing because of the cost of regulation and will live in sub standard housing. I can understand why, as the codes, permitting, and stupid requirement double or triple the cost of doing things.
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Old 10-05-2016, 06:04 PM   #155
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Yes a source selector would be the preferred option however isolating just the outlets, from the rest of the AC panel, gets into a whole other wiring job and many AC panels don't have the physical room to do that.
True, you'd need a way to change the source for an individual breaker. On a home breaker panel, that's not easy, since the breakers snap into a bus built into the panel.

Most marine breakers I've seen (admittedly a small sample) have two screw terminals, one for source and one for the load. There may be a bus bar connecting all the source screws, which would have to be cut or relocated, and you might want to re-organize the panel to put the circuits on the inverter next to each other. But none of this should take up much extra space.

I confirmed this is the way the standard Blue Sea "A-Series" breakers (a popular model) are configured. Here's their diagram:


None of this is beyond the abilities of a careful DIY'er, but obviously anyone not comfortable working with 120VAC should seek help from an electrician.
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Old 10-05-2016, 11:07 PM   #156
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Yes and that is the very switch I bought to permanently solve this ...then I switched inverters. The new one is automatic.

As the old one is not in service the urgency to install said switch is gone.

Yes I am fully aware that I made a mistake. The inverter was shut off. It was not powering my outlets. It was wired without a switch. That was a mistake. If I ever put that inverter back in service I will wire the blue switch. Mine says shore, off and generator. I will check the switch for continuity too as it is older.

Thank you for the information and reminder that I should have installed the switch asap.

Addition: the perko switch that provided battery power was turned off. Thus the inverter was not powered. That's what I mean by shut off.
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Old 10-06-2016, 06:35 PM   #157
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Look into a 24 VDC inverter and system. Less Amps to draw, smaller wire etc and most definatley get a pure Sine wave inverter.
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