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Old 01-25-2015, 11:46 AM   #101
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@Murray


I think that you will find a gradual "change of heart" as the oil/gas companies include the natives in profit sharing.
BC's 3 oil refineries: which will go? - Industry News - Pipeline News North
Yup, you are right. There may be a "tipping point" where the majority of BC residents will support diluted bitumen pipelines, and refineries with the jobs they generate may be what it takes. We'll just have to wait and see if any of these projects have the legs to reach the National Energy Board review level.

It appears diluted bitumen export pipelines constructed with foreign workers and loaded aboard foreign flagged vessels is too much risk for too little reward.
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Old 01-25-2015, 11:58 AM   #102
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Murray

The way I look at it, again as someone who makes their living off of oil, is that if your community does not want what our industry brings to town, then so be it. That is fantastic!

I on the other hand would, and do, use my vote to encourage responsible, safe, development of this resource, and welcome the good paying jobs, and all that brings to my state.

My lifestyle is based on oil. My boat, and almost all the other large recreational boats in our harbors were bought with money that in some way, shape, or form, came from oil.

I love the fact that our local oil companies hire every graduate from our local trade tech colleges, and pay those kids, after a training period of course, upwards of $130K per year plus benefits. That's lifestyle money Murray. That's what the youth of our state have to look forward to, if they work hard, and study hard, and do a good job.

Nope, I'm glad for oil, and all it brings to Alaska!

In this day and age where college graduates elsewhere are underemployed, and living with their parents, I like that Alaska is different. You show me a "average" kid, not the college bound type, and I'll show you a kid who can work hard at something like a welder, or pipe fitter, or equipment operator, and make over a hundred grand a year at his trade. I'll show you a kid that can buy a nice house, and a nice car, and yes, even a decent boat if he wants. I'll show you a kid with something to look forward to.

You see Murray, oilfields require work. Real work. Every craft. Every trade, every profession. I love it, and support it.

I also fully support your communities right to determine its own destiny, and all that comes with it as well.

I was in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR for short) a couple of years ago. I was working in the Eskimo village of Kaktovik Alaska. I asked an older man if he supported drilling in ANWR. He said NO! He said he prefers the old ways, hunting and gathering, and his culture which is fading fast.

I then asked a young man if he supported drilling in ANWR. He said, YES drill, and drill soon. He said that he loved the old native ways of hunting and gathering but he pointed to his new 4 wheeler and said "I can't make the payments on that using Muktuk (whale blubber) and caribou skins" He said "I have electricity, and a truck, and a house payment, and a 4 wheeler. We need jobs to buy all that"
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Old 01-25-2015, 12:42 PM   #103
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Murray

The way I look at it, again as someone who makes their living off of oil, is that if your community does not want what our industry brings to town, then so be it. That is fantastic!

I on the other hand would, and do, use my vote to encourage responsible, safe, development of this resource, and welcome the good paying jobs, and all that brings to my state.

My lifestyle is based on oil. My boat, and almost all the other large recreational boats in our harbors were bought with money that in some way, shape, or form, came from oil.

I love the fact that our local oil companies hire every graduate from our local trade tech colleges, and pay those kids, after a training period of course, upwards of $130K per year plus benefits. That's lifestyle money Murray. That's what the youth of our state have to look forward to, if they work hard, and study hard, and do a good job.

Nope, I'm glad for oil, and all it brings to Alaska!

In this day and age where college graduates elsewhere are underemployed, and living with their parents, I like that Alaska is different. You show me a "average" kid, not the college bound type, and I'll show you a kid who can work hard at something like a welder, or pipe fitter, or equipment operator, and make over a hundred grand a year at his trade. I'll show you a kid that can buy a nice house, and a nice car, and yes, even a decent boat if he wants. I'll show you a kid with something to look forward to.

You see Murray, oilfields require work. Real work. Every craft. Every trade, every profession. I love it, and support it.

I also fully support your communities right to determine its own destiny, and all that comes with it as well.
Hi Kevin,

That's all great and makes a big heap of sense. You also have the Jones Act ensuring it's US vessels carrying the oil, and that oil is mostly, I assume, headed for US refineries.

The Northern Gateway proposal will be built mostly by foreign workers, be loaded aboard foreign flagged vessels, and be refined in foreign refineries.

Another concern for us is that the 1.3 billion litre tank farm and proposed supertanker loading docks (sitting a couple kilometers from the Kitimat River estuary, Kitimat, and Kitamaat Village and which will be controlled from Enbridge's Edmonton Alberta control room) are about 20 kilometers away from an earthquake fault line along the bottom of Douglas Channel that was only discovered when a modern hydrographic survey was recently done.

This project was described years ago by an unnamed oil executive as a dead man walking...a perfect description
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Old 01-25-2015, 03:02 PM   #104
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Good find Art. This pretty much summarises the reason behind what the Saudis are up to.
They are getting rid of the competition, which won't be hard with the huge difference in cost in extracting the stuff.
Thanks, West.

Many parameters of hydrocarbon fuels are items my associates and I keep close tabs on. We are extremely interested at the rate of burn, efficiency of burn, and emitted exhaust into atmosphere with transfer into oceans. Following the suppliers' wholesale cost-wars and their product volumes is an outcropping of our efforts. We're also interested in retail price levels.

In atmosphere and oceans there is ample CO2 to supply this world for well over a century with "carbon neutral" recyclable, drop-in, fungible liquid hydrocarbon fuels...i.e. gasoline , diesel, jet fuel. Devices to accomplish this exist. Increasing design development is ongoing. Implementation is another story.

If you think the current crude oil price-war is intense, or that SA will likely decimate some other liquid hydrocarbon fuel producers by price reductions (be they crude or refined sources). Wait till you see a fuel source war once a new hydrocarbon fuel source that is recyclable comes to market and completely by-passes crudes. That could eventually floor all crude oil producers of any sought. Price will be the only weapon for crude suppliers. Versus environmental and climate stabilities offered through a recyclable and affordable new-source for liquid hydrocarbon fuels.

As usual, profit levels rule the roost!

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Old 01-26-2015, 10:19 AM   #105
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An interesting read from a global perspective;

Age of Oil Ending?
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Old 01-26-2015, 12:55 PM   #106
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An interesting read from a global perspective;

Age of Oil Ending?
Dwell on this! Ė Art

How Much Should We Leave in the Ground?
Here are some estimates for how much fossil fuel we can use, and a call for a global moratorium on new prospecting.

By George Monbiot. Published on the Guardianís website, 6th May 2009.

The two papers on carbon emissions published in Nature last week were ground-breaking: they show us how much carbon dioxide we can produce if weíre to have a reasonable chance of preventing two degrees of global warming. Itís a completely different approach from the UNís and national governmentsí. They set targets for reductions by a certain date but have nothing to say about the total amount of carbon we can release.

One of the papers, by Myles Allen and others(1), suggests that we can burn, at most, another 400-500 billion tonnes of carbon at any time between now and the extinction of humanity if we want to avoid two degrees of warming. The other, by Malte Meinshausen and others(2), suggests that producing 1000 billion tonnes of CO2 between 2000-2050 would give us a 25% chance of exceeding two degrees. Thatís a lot less than Allenís estimate, as one tonne of carbon produces 3.667 tonnes of CO2 when itís burnt: 1000 billion tonnes of CO2 arises from 273 billion tonnes of carbon.

But letís err on the side of valour and use Allenís figures. Moreover, letís disregard all other greenhouse gases (which, he suggests, should reduce the total CO2 budget to under 400 billion tonnes).

How does his maximum allowance of carbon compare with known reserves of fossil fuel?

Let me make two things clear before I make this calculation. First, reserves are not the same as resources. A resource is the total amount of a mineral found in the earthís crust. A reserve is the part of the resource which has been identified, quantified and is cost-effective to exploit. In most cases this is likely to be a small percentage of the total resource. Secondly, there is some controversy over the official figures for fossil fuel reserves. This is especially the case for oil, as the members of OPEC are extremely secretive about how much they possess. But for the sake of argument, letís take them at face value.

According to the World Energy Council:

global reserves of coal amount to 848 billion tonnes(3)

global reserves of natural gas are 177,000 billion cubic metres(4)

global reserves of crude oil are 162 billion tonnes(5)

Because the calculations are much harder and the quantities involved less certain, I am ignoring unconventional sources of fossil fuel, such as tar sands, oil shales, bitumens and methane hydrates, as well as liquid natural gas resources.

On average, one tonne of coal contains 746 kg carbon(6)

One cubic metre of natural gas contains 0.49 kg carbon(7)

The figure for oil is less certain, because not all of its refinery products are burnt. But the rough calculation here(8) suggests that the use of a barrel of oil releases 317kg of CO2. Depending on the density of the oil, there are roughly 7 barrels to the tonne, giving an approximation of 2219kg CO2, or 605kg of carbon.

So the carbon content of official known reserves of coal, gas and oil amounts to:

848 x 0.746 = 633
+
177,000 x 0.00049 = 87
+
162 x 0.605 = 98

Total conventional fossil fuel reserves therefore contain 818 billion tonnes of carbon.

Even ignoring all unconventional sources and all other greenhouse gases and taking the most optimistic of the figures in the two Nature papers, we can afford to burn only 61% of known fossil fuel reserves between now and eternity.

Or, using Meinshausenís figure, we can burn only 33% between now and 2050. Sorry Ė 33% minus however much we have burnt between 2000 and today.

So the question which arises is this: which fossil fuel reserves will we decide not to extract and burn? There is, as I have argued before(9), no point in seeking to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels unless we also seek to reduce their production. Yet, apart from the members of OPEC (who do it only to shore up the price), no government is attempting to limit the amount of fuel extracted. Far from it; they all pursue the same strategy as the United Kingdom: to ďmaximize economic recoveryĒ(10).

The test of all governmentsí commitment to stopping climate breakdown is this: whether they are prepared to impose a limit on the use of the reserves already discovered, and a permanent moratorium on prospecting for new reserves. Otherwise itís all hot air.

References:
1. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v458/n7242/full/nature08019.html
2. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v458/n7242/full/nature08017.html
3. http://www.worldenergy.org/publications/survey_of_energy_resources_2007/coal/627.asp
4. http://www.worldenergy.org/publications/survey_of_energy_resources_2007/natural_gas/664.asp
5. http://www.worldenergy.org/publications/survey_of_energy_resources_2007/crude_oil_and_natural_gas_liquids/638.asp
6. http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html
7. http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html
8. http://numero57.net/?p=255
9. http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2007/12/11/rigged/
10. http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file39387.pdf
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Old 01-26-2015, 01:00 PM   #107
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An interesting read from a global perspective;

Age of Oil Ending?
Read the article. They play pretty fast and loose with the facts. They list all these cities and places that are 100% renewable energy. What they fail to metion is that while they can produce an amount of renewable energy equal to annual consumption, they are still unable to cover high demand periods and low production periods such as night and calm wind periods. They also imply that reduction of USA petroleum based electric generation declined in the last 35 years as a result of renewable energy. When in reality the reduction was caused by coal and natural gas being far more economical than fuel oil. Whole thing kind of reminded me of Obama's state of the union address, taking credit for increased oil production in the USA (some thing he was opposed to).

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Old 01-26-2015, 05:01 PM   #108
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Read the article. They play pretty fast and loose with the facts.
I said it was interesting, not gospel.

I don't blindly believe Big Oil or Big Greens, finding the truth usually resides in the middle.

Thanks for those links Art.
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Old 01-26-2015, 06:18 PM   #109
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I don't blindly believe Big Oil or Big Greens, finding the truth usually resides in the middle.
Being a slender Green (Ted Green) I won't take offense to that.

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Old 01-26-2015, 06:58 PM   #110
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I said it was interesting, not gospel.

I don't blindly believe Big Oil or Big Greens, finding the truth usually resides in the middle.

Thanks for those links Art.
I don't believe big oil either...

I just want their jobs.

I certainly don't believe big green.

I've actually been to ANWR.
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Old 01-26-2015, 07:53 PM   #111
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Several years ago I was producing a biofuel video to support an exhibit at an airshow. One of the reports I was given by one of the company's subject matter experts contained a study of what it would take to power the island of Manhattan with wind power.

What it would take, the study concluded after doing all the math, is that the entire state of Connecticut would have to be evacuated, the entire state denuded of trees and all existing structures, and the entire state covered with the highest output wind turbines available at the time. The entire state, solid wind turbines, border to border.

Then the wind would have to blow 35 mph 24/7/365

If all this was done, then Manhattan's electrical needs could be provided by wind power.
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Old 01-26-2015, 11:05 PM   #112
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If all this was done, then Manhattan's electrical needs could be provided by wind power.
If only they could power it with all the hot air from some of their past Senators!

HOLLYWOOD
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:07 AM   #113
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To the forum.

I have just completed the full reading of this thread. Being familiar with the current world news regarding the oil situation I would like to say thanks to all of your contributors. While there are differences in opinions, the level of conversation brings a comfortable tone in the readings.
Often as you read articles the comments following are so gross in spite, vengeance, negativity that one wonders how two people can pass on a street without an effort to kill each other! To read what six pages of intelligent conversion is a win.
(A shout out to the moderator to bring the focus back to the subject and not politics.This from one who has been taken to the wood shed himself)

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Old 01-27-2015, 08:23 AM   #114
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AS the EU breaks up , the depression will lessen even more the world demand for oil.

AS the Euro debt is canceled , Money will become more valuable , lowering the price of oil even more.

One has to wonder how Russia will react?
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Old 01-27-2015, 09:00 AM   #115
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One has to wonder how Russia will react?
Like a cornered rat.
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:32 PM   #116
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I don't believe big oil either...

I just want their jobs.

I certainly don't believe big green.

I've actually been to ANWR.
Me too. Great frozon desert huh! Now our Loser and Chief O is trying to classify ANWR as wilderness......
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Old 01-27-2015, 03:29 PM   #117
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Me too. Great frozon desert huh! Now our Loser and Chief O is trying to classify ANWR as wilderness......
How can you call someplace a wilderness that has four wheeler tracks and trails all over it?

What people do not realize is that the people of Kaktovik, travel far and wide in their four wheelers and snow machines.

The four wheelers especially leave tracks that will never go away. You can see those tracks everywhere.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:04 PM   #118
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How can you call someplace a wilderness that has four wheeler tracks and trails all over it?

What people do not realize is that the people of Kaktovik, travel far and wide in their four wheelers and snow machines.

The four wheelers especially leave tracks that will never go away. You can see those tracks everywhere.
If this keeps up, it will be illegal for a caribow to take a dump in ANWR....

Hey Kev, remember when the enviromental wacos stated the Bou would never go under the pipeline and thus the Bou would all be dead in 10 years......
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:35 PM   #119
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It could be Australia is attempting " a Saudi" with iron ore; export quantities to China are up but prices are lower. Or a desperate attempt to maintain cash flow from a falling commodity.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:42 PM   #120
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If this keeps up, it will be illegal for a caribow to take a dump in ANWR....

Hey Kev, remember when the enviromental wacos stated the Bou would never go under the pipeline and thus the Bou would all be dead in 10 years......
Yep I remember.

I also remember summer before last being surrounded by a herd of thousands of Caribou, and getting out of my truck and standing in the middle of that herd for probably an hour as it crossed the road. I remember the wild animal smell, the clicking sounds their hoofs make when they walk, and the sounds of their snorting as they breath.

Aren't these the same Caribou they all said would not exist if we drilled for oil in the Prudhoe? Possibly that was a different herd or something?
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