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Old 09-19-2013, 07:54 AM   #81
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The underlying theme here is that one must really UNDERSTAND how thier anchor of choice works, and understand how to properly set that anchor.

And practise makes almost perfect.

So while we are sitting here playing anchor ping pong, we should be out there digging in for the night!


By the way has anyone dived on their anchor to inspect what it's doing? We have several times and it's a learning experience if you never have.
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Old 09-19-2013, 10:50 AM   #82
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By the way has anyone dived on their anchor to inspect what it's doing? We have several times and it's a learning experience if you never have.
I use to do that frequently while cruising with my brother in the Sea of Cortez. As you have written, it's a real education as to what the anchor is trying to do. Many times, the Danforth could not penetrate the sand and gravel bottom that is found in many of the inlets an coves of the Gulf of California. I actually had to help the thing get started by shoving the points of the anchor into the bottom by hand.

I get a kick out of this anchor debate conducted by some by people who have never seen one trying to dig itself in. (Other than on a beach in a video. )
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Old 09-19-2013, 10:59 AM   #83
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Yes, I have dived the anchor. If you anchor in some relatively shallow, clear water areas like the Bahamas or FL Keys, a looky box comes in handy. I just take the dinghy, float over the anchor, and take a look. Makes me sleep better knowing the anchor is set well.
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:34 AM   #84
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I love it ....... anchor ping pong.

I've never dived on any anchor but I've seen many videos of anchors setting. Looks like it's gotta be soft stuff to get buried. For years in the past I don't think anchors were intended to bury themselves. Navy, Dreadnought, Kedge, Danforth, CQR, and many others were not conceived to bury. Many went up to their shank but no further and probably most modern anchors most all the time don't take their attachment shackle below. I can't imagine a CQR shank being pulled completely down. So unless you set your anchor hard in a soft bottom you're using a non burying type most all the time. So the concept that your anchor is going to be buried way down there is false.

Here is an anchor test that shows much underwater video.http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/Ancho...st%20Nov09.pdf
You'll notice that the steel Spade has a great performance but the aluminum Spade flops. But not as bad as the XYZ in this test. This XYZ has a different tip than mine ... glad I didn't get this one. I think this model has been dropped. Interesting how they put all those anchors on the same boat and bow roller.

Jay would your observations confirm that. And what kind of bottoms do you most often anchor in? And what anchor do you use? If you dive often perhaps we can learn from your experience.

Peter if one is to buy an anchor and has the choice of one that holds at long scope and short scope or an anchor that holds only at long scope which one is the best anchor? And what pleasure boat skipper NEVER needs to anchor at short scope? Anchorages DO vary and many DO fill up w many other boats requiring anchoring at short scope. No matter where you are you'll find yourself in restricted space and need short scope performance. That said I'll drop it for awhile unless someone asks me a direct question. I'm sure you're right that many are getting sick of hearing about it.

Spy your right I am sick of hearing Marin's in with the new out w the old. But I did get him out from behind the bushes. He'll come out posting on the board soon enough. Mark my words. But I won't hear what he says as I'm putting him on my ignore list along w psneeld. I was urged to use it by the mods and it worked so well w psneeld I'll apply it to Marin. I'll miss a lot of what he has to say though as frequently he has very good objective stuff to say but the Rocna this GB that has got to stop and the ignore list will do that well.
For those that haven't used the ignore list you can still see when they make a post and just following a post you've made you can imagine what they say especially when it's someone you know as well as I know Marin. I'd rather it be otherwise but I'm sure it's the nature of the forum and can't be had any other way.

One more comment to you Marin. The Bruce anchor worked well in several ways (like the Rocna) and it soon became fashionable .. like the Rocna. The Bruce still works better in several ways than the Rocna but it's a bit like "your father's Oldsmobile" now. The Rocna will become the Bruce in some time. But the Rocna will perform just as well as it does now ... then ... just like the Bruce does now.
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Old 09-19-2013, 12:46 PM   #85
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The anchor discussion is a long one. It makes me think of something I was told when I was in the Chargers training camp as a quarterback and Jack Kemp told me this; just remember, you will always have people sitting in their chairs telling you what they would have done, but until they are on the field like you, taking the snaps and making the decisions, what they say is only their opinion, not the way you should do it.

Everyone has their own anchor of choice or by default and it only works when you practice it, deploy it and get use to it. Theory is only as good as the implementation. I use a Rocna because I have found it to work best for me, period. Nothing being said either for or against any other anchor out there, this is what works for me.

As far as using the ignore feature on the site, I think it can be a useful tool if you feel the need to. I do not feel like you should publicly announce who you apply this to. That is your personal decision and should be kept that way. Anything else I consider distasteful and inappropriate. Disagreements are between the parties involved not the entire forum.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:19 PM   #86
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...The Bruce still works better in several ways than the Rocna...
Eric: ?
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:54 PM   #87
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!. Sits much better on the bow of most boats on the bow roller and/or pulpit.

2. FAR less expensive

3. I gotta say it ... has much better short scope performance.

4. More attractive and far less intrusive of over the bow visibility.

5. Less likely to be stolen.

#1 and 2 are probably the main reasons people buy new Claws. I don't know but I suspect that more are sold now than any modern anchor. Many manufacturers put them on new boats for 32 and #1 in that order. Commercial fishermen choose them when they can't afford a Forfjord or find a Dreadnought. Is the Claw not the most popular anchor there is?
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:01 PM   #88
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Keith,
The thing w Marin and I has been going on for over 5 years. The forum is part of it so my presenting it to the board is in my opinion appropriate. I know you tell students how to behave in school a lot of the time but to tell me how to conduct my personal business is not appropriate here.
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:19 PM   #89
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Eric

Bay Pelican is set up with an 88lb Rocna and a 65lb
Bruce on its bow. Following the discussion I am hearing that if I must anchor with short scope 3 to 1, 4 to 1 (?) then the Bruce might be the better choice. Two weaknesses of my Bruce, in this comparison, are that it is 33lbs lighter than the Rocna and it has only 60ft of chain (200ft of line) versus 300 for the Bruce. Of course short scope is not 300 ft of chain.

Thoughts, Eric, anyone

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Old 09-19-2013, 06:31 PM   #90
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I know you tell students how to behave in school a lot of the time but to tell me how to conduct my personal business is not appropriate here.
The problem, Eric, is that it is not "personal" when you announce it to the world.

It's really not anyone else's business who you choose to ignore. You're pretty quick to give others advice, now let's see how quick you are to accept some.
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:37 PM   #91
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Eric, I'm not sure what you mean exactly by short scope, but the Sarca works well right down to 1 : 3 and that's often all I have to use, (unless she's really honking). Does that qualify as short scope..?
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Old 09-19-2013, 06:37 PM   #92
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Marty,
Yes indeed the Claws are good at that. I'd get a considerably bigger Claw though. They are shy of holding power but will hold a boat at short scope in reasonable weather. I'd use a Claw in rocky bottoms too when you think you may bend a shank. May as well do that on an inexpensive anchor.

FF believes in having the right anchor for whatever occasion and your pair looks like a good team.
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:01 AM   #93
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Peter,
For fairly nice weather 3-1 for me is fairly standard. I see no point in going to 7-1 unless 50 knot winds are predicted. But basically 3-1 is the lowest scope I'll regularly use. Of course that's w full consideration for high tide. If 3-1 would swing me over a rock and I wasn't sure about it's depth I'd rather go to 2.5-1 or even 2-1 in good weather.

After that it's time for fore and aft anchoring and I haven't done that.

But 3-1 is probably short scope for most on the forum. But short scope relative to someone that anchors at 7-1 most of the time would surely be 3-1. It's a relative thing.

I talked to a skipper a few years back and he thought most other skippers said they anchor at 5-1 but he thought most everybody actually was generally at 3-1. In other words boaters actually anchored at a much shorter scope than they claimed to not appear foolish or taking risks. Just fudging a little re what you say and what you do. I won't claim everybody's do'in it like the guy above but I'll bet quite a bit of that goes on.

One of the reasons I wanted a SARCA was for short scope and the reason I bought the Supreme is due to it's short S capabilities.

Another way of looking at short scope is knowing at what scope your anchor's performance falls off to the point that a 20 to 25mph wind would likely cause problems. That would be short scope and would vary from anchor to anchor. But the bottom would vary even more than that by a long shot.

So your question is a VERY good one as there are so many variables to broaden the range of "short scope". Anchors, bottom, weather, Boat, rode, and I'm sure there are others. Sombody here on this forum could think of 4-1 as short scope under certain conditions. Other conditions may produce a situation where only 2-1 (or less) could be considered short scope. I have anchored at 2-1 and have heard 3 or 4 others on the forum that have used 2-1. But unless I had an anchor that was known for short scope performance or if I had good experience at that scope w a certain anchor I would consider 2-1 to be SHORT ... Too short. And at times a medium scope may not be acceptable if the wind changes. So you can anchor at 2-1 and risk dragging or anchoring at 3-1 .. or so ... and risk the wind changing. I did that once and the wind changed. Bang! We hit the rock but no damage.

Most anchor tests test at 5-1 to 7-1 for long scope but they also test at 3-1. Never 4-1 or 2-1. So it appears that 3-1 is the bottom of the range of usable and safe anchoring scopes. But quite a few anchors do poorly at 3-1 in the tests. But in the tests they pull so hard it would represent extreme conditions that many or even most boaters will not encounter in years of boating.

So I'd say no. 3-1 is generally not short scope.
Close though.
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Old 09-20-2013, 12:52 AM   #94
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One thing I do agree on is the poor estimate of most as to how much rode they have out. (Unless they have religiously marked off their rode and actually count the marks). Something I only fully realised myself when I installed a counter. I then found I was often way off as to how much I though I had out.
I can see why you place so much emphasis on short rode function, coming from where you used to be, where often you were anchoring in really deep water - the sort of depths I would just never attempt to anchor in and don't need to. Then for sure one needs a mixed rope/chain rode or the amount of chain, and therefore weight, could get ridiculous. However, in reality, most of us anchor in quite shallow water, (ie less than 30 metres, more often less than 12m, because you seek out a place that is), so all chain at at least 3 : 1 is fine under normal conditions...5 : 1 if in doubt, and 7 : 1 for a midnight screamer. It is in these conditions the newer anchors are at their best, mainly because of quick set on virtually any bottom.

By the way, I would really love to have your coment re the query I put on the XYZ anchor update thread...
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Old 09-20-2013, 11:57 AM   #95
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Yes when we prepare to anchor we've got a lot on our minds so it's easy to forget the tide or the height of the bow above the water or where the shallowest place is in our projected swing. Lots of opportunities to overlook one of the many variables. You might be 5-1 in the north end of your swing and 2-1 to the west.

"midnight screamer"? I've only done two 50 knot "screamers" but now that I'm down south It'll prolly be the end of that .... but not guaranteed of course.

Any new word from Rex about the availability of SARCA anchors in the US?
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Old 09-20-2013, 08:38 PM   #96
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The CQR can be difficult to set and the Rocna is proving to be awesome besides its designed by a Kiwi !!!

The CQR has been relegated to second string, injured reserve but is also available for sale..
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Old 09-20-2013, 09:02 PM   #97
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Yes when we prepare to anchor we've got a lot on our minds so it's easy to forget the tide or the height of the bow above the water or where the shallowest place is in our projected swing. Lots of opportunities to overlook one of the many variables. You might be 5-1 in the north end of your swing and 2-1 to the west.
The rode/depth ratio wouldn't change when swinging on the anchor, as it relates to the anchor depth; not the boat depth. That is - unless your anchor is dragging.
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Old 09-20-2013, 09:31 PM   #98
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The rode/depth ratio wouldn't change when swinging on the anchor, as it relates to the anchor depth; not the boat depth. That is - unless your anchor is dragging.
I was hoping someone else would point that out....
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