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Old 09-15-2013, 04:07 PM   #41
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Everybody has an opinion!!!
I switched out a 65lb CQR for an 88lb Rocna on our 65000lb trawler several years ago. It has never dragged. We do use a minimum 5x chain scope with a snubber. Given windy conditions we go as much as 10x scope. We carry 350ft BBB chain. The CQR with chain and line is the back-up that we have not needed since we got the Rocna. The Rocna just grabs straight away when it hits the bottom.
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Old 09-15-2013, 09:39 PM   #42
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Have anchored from CT to FL using a Manson Supreme. By far the best anchor I have ever used;has set first try every time and never dragged in some adverse conditions. Have used Danforth, CQR, and Fortress in the past. If I could only have one anchor the MS would be the one. The Boss is simply a Supreme redesigned to fit the bow pulpits of most power boats. The winglets are to help it stay upright as does the hoop on the Supreme. Otherwise, no real difference.
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Old 09-16-2013, 01:31 AM   #43
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Yes, (we'll never get FF to agree), but these new generation roll bar anchors and their various derivations are for sure the nearest thing we have ever had to true reliable, multipurpose anchors, to come round. Twenty years down the track, everyone will be using them, and wondering (Like I did after getting my Super Sarca after a CQR) how we ever did without.
Sorry, guys...I really tried to stay out of this one...but one can only resist soooo long...
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Old 09-16-2013, 02:21 AM   #44
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Switching from a plough (horse-drawn) to a newer design, like Super Sarca and its cousins,gives immediate improvement in set and hold. There have been huge advances in design over the last 40 years. The difference is like replacing an old tired battery, immediate, noticeable, and good.
Even so, the old CQR/plough was a good friend, and becomes back up.
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Old 09-16-2013, 01:54 PM   #45
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Thanks again everyone for your input!
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Old 09-16-2013, 03:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Peter B View Post
Yes, (we'll never get FF to agree), but these new generation roll bar anchors and their various derivations are for sure the nearest thing we have ever had to true reliable, multipurpose anchors, to come round. Twenty years down the track, everyone will be using them, and wondering (Like I did after getting my Super Sarca after a CQR) how we ever did without.
Sorry, guys...I really tried to stay out of this one...but one can only resist soooo long...
This is about anchoring so I can disagree .. right? I do.

The newer anchors are mostly great. They are mostly better than the older ones. In a hundred years more than a bit has been learned about anchors .... but not much more. A lot of you "roll bars are going to save the world" types haven't noticed there isn't a blurr of boaters racing toward West Marine to buy their new super anchor. That's because most all anchors regardless of age work well enough so there's no motivation to buy a new one.

And re the roll bar (of which I am not a fan) once the anchor has started to set the roll bar is not a plus. It's sole purpose is to keep the anchor upright until it sets ..or starts to set. In fact it is a negative for several reasons once penetration of the bottom has been achieved.

If roll bars on anchors held a boat in place and provided a means to set anchors would be made of roll bars instead of flukes. Flukes are the best devise for holding against resistance .. not roll bars. And because of their function the roll bars are mounted high up above the flukes so the drag from the roll bar tends to pitch the anchor up (like an airplane climbing) and that could be one of the reasons most roll bar anchors perform poorly at short scope. Once the anchor is set it would be much better off w/o a roll bar ... but there it is. Most roll bar manufacturers point out how wonderful it is not to need ballast weight in the fluke tip (like the Delta and Spade). Once the anchor is set however the ballast on the fluke tip is MUCH more beneficial than a roll bar if the roll bar is beneficial at all.

In my opinion if an anchor design can set dependably it's better off with out a roll bar. But there is much more to anchor design than roll bars. I bought a roll bar anchor (Manson Supreme) and it's performance has been satisfactory but I haven't used it in our NW Pacific gales. I bought it over the Rocna because they said in several anchor tests that it did exceedingly well at 3-1 scope whereas the Rocna's performance suffered at that scope. Interestingly the anchors I used in Gales (50 knots) were XYZ anchors that did poorly in all anchor tests but one.

However the three roll bar anchors I can think of do work very well given enough scope but others do very well too and a lot to most of them do well at 3-1 scope. The new Manson Boss anchor w/o a weighted fluke tip may be the best anchor yet if it can set dependably. I suspect Manson decided the roll bar wasn't ideal and designed an anchor that didn't need a roll bar. Nothing new there as all anchors before roll bars didn't need them either. So Peter if the roll bar is in a state of evolution I think it's destined to be just another anchor setting device with it's own set of problems that will keep it from becoming even close to universal.
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Old 09-16-2013, 03:45 PM   #47
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Old 09-16-2013, 04:46 PM   #48
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I think the roll bar was removed from the Masons boss because the roll bar anchor had a hard time fitting most all puppets. Even in says that the Supreme is superior to the boss in most cases.I have seen the roll bar anchor very well below the hoop, perhaps it depends on Cincy of the bottom but it any rate if the anchor doesn't drag I don't care if it has a Robar or not so
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Old 09-16-2013, 04:47 PM   #49
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I think the roll bar was removed from the Masons boss because the roll bar anchor had a hard time fitting most all pulpets. I believe manson says that the Supreme is superior to the boss in most cases.I have seen the roll bar anchor very well below the hoop, perhaps it depends on Cincy of the bottom but it any rate if the anchor doesn't drag I don't care if it has a Rollbar or not so. but the truth is I'm attracted to the Menace anchor by its lower price
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Old 09-16-2013, 05:39 PM   #50
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I had a fairly long email correspondence with Ned Woods, VP Sales and Marketing at Manson. They did indeed remove the roll bar when creating the Boss so that the anchor would fit on the bow pulpits of most power boats without modification to the pulpit. If the Supreme will fit, use it as it is a bit less expensive. Should hold just as well as the Boss. I have a 45# CQR and a 60# Supreme on the bow pulpit of Magic. The Supreme sits in a self launching canted double roller. The CQR is on a straight single roller that requires giving the CQR a push over the edge to launch.
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Old 09-16-2013, 06:08 PM   #51
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I don't think Manson would reveal there was a flaw in one of there designs. Even if there was one. And everything is true or false ... to a degree. There are numerous flaws in everything but the sum total is the most important and in the case of roll bar anchors the excellent design (holding power wise) of their flukes make up for the negative aspects of their roll bars.

I have an idea how to improve the performance of my Supreme. I've already modified one of my anchors and so far that's been 100% successful.
Re the mod I'll cut away the top 1/3 of the roll bar. It will still be almost as tall as it is now and have much less drag up high. Should make it better. The remaining part of the roll bar (ears I'll call them) may not be as strong as the complete roll bar though. Lets hope the roll bar is stronger than it needs to be.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:38 PM   #52
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[QUOTE=manyboats;179485]This is about anchoring so I can disagree .. right? I do.

The newer anchors are mostly great. They are mostly better than the older ones. In a hundred years more than a bit has been learned about anchors .... but not much more......And re the roll bar (of which I am not a fan) once the anchor has started to set the roll bar is not a plus. It's sole purpose is to keep the anchor upright until it sets ..or starts to set. In fact it is a negative for several reasons once penetration of the bottom has been achieved.
In my opinion if an anchor design can set dependably it's better off with out a roll bar. But there is much more to anchor design than roll bars. I bought a roll bar anchor (Manson Supreme) and it's performance has been satisfactory but I haven't used it in our NW Pacific gales. I bought it over the Rocna because they said in several anchor tests that it did exceedingly well at 3-1 scope whereas the Rocna's performance suffered at that scope. Interestingly the anchors I used in Gales (50 knots) were XYZ anchors that did poorly in all anchor tests but one. ......
So Peter if the roll bar is in a state of evolution I think it's destined to be just another anchor setting device with it's own set of problems that will keep it from becoming even close to universal.[/QUOTE]
Eric, you need to read my original post over again a few times...what I said was ....
"....but these new generation roll bar anchors and their various derivations are for sure the nearest thing we have ever had to true reliable, multipurpose anchors, to come round."

I said that deliberately, because I am aware that apart from the Rocna, the other anchors like the Manson, and the Sarca Excel, have brought out new anchors without roll bars. However, this move was more to counter criticism of the roll bar's aesthetics, and the fact they were not as modern pulpit friendly as those without, rather than as a performance enhancement, as the roll bar does not - repeat does not, impede full setting and dig in - just watch that video again. I also doubt it has any effect in tending to lift the shank either, but rather it's just that any anchor with a fairly long shank, (which is generally regarded as a good feature for most situations), is probably not going to be as good in short scope situations as a short shanked anchor - provided that short shanked anchor (like the Spade) does actually set, of course.
Interesting to see the Manson Boss has a slotted shank too....hmmmmmm
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Old 09-17-2013, 06:48 AM   #53
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Time for a Mea Culpa.

For sixteen years(over two boats) I have made do with a trusty 45lb plough. I have never dragged an anchor, even being caught by the occasional land gale at 2.00am

However being a diligent forum member I have taken note over the years about anchor design etc,so I am persuaded. The new anchor is a must. Off I go, and $700 later there on my bow spit is the 25Kg roll bar anchor in all her glory.

Boy, was everyone sick of hearing about my new anchor, youngest daughter even piped up told me to 'get a life'.

First time out, we dragged an anchor, I couldn't believe it, this is not possible, this thing is the best thing since sliced bread(as my old dad would say).Still there it was.

The lesson. Well with my old plough I set it carefully, noted the depth wind etc, however with the new wonder anchor i just threw it out, more or less, and turned my back on it, and it came back to bite me on the bum.

Lesson learnt, there's far more to anchoring than just the anchor.
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Old 09-17-2013, 07:26 AM   #54
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Time for a Mea Culpa.

For sixteen years(over two boats) I have made do with a trusty 45lb plough. I have never dragged an anchor, even being caught by the occasional land gale at 2.00am

However being a diligent forum member I have taken note over the years about anchor design etc,so I am persuaded. The new anchor is a must. Off I go, and $700 later there on my bow spit is the 25Kg roll bar anchor in all her glory.

Boy, was everyone sick of hearing about my new anchor, youngest daughter even piped up told me to 'get a life'.

First time out, we dragged an anchor, I couldn't believe it, this is not possible, this thing is the best thing since sliced bread(as my old dad would say).Still there it was.

The lesson. Well with my old plough I set it carefully, noted the depth wind etc, however with the new wonder anchor i just threw it out, more or less, and turned my back on it, and it came back to bite me on the bum.

Lesson learnt, there's far more to anchoring than just the anchor.
Well, there you go! Proof positive that roll bar anchors don't work.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:13 AM   #55
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Can we discuss religion or politics instead of anchors. We all know that the best anchor is the one I use.
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Old 09-17-2013, 12:56 PM   #56
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hmason,
If you don't like reading about anchors why are you reading about anchors?

Andy,
I knew that would happen sooner or later. Thank you for sticking your neck out there for objectivity and clarity. And I'm glad you didn't mention the exact brand. Marin will drag his Rocna sooner or later too and I wonder if he'll admit it? You said "this is not possible" haha you must have bought into the hype. Same thing happened to me w my original XYZ but now I use a modified later version XYZ more often than anything. But I use my Danforth, Supreme, Claw and even my Dreadnought.

And re the skill of the operator that isn't even the biggest variable in anchoring ..... the bottom is. You probably will have good experiences w your roll bar anchor for some time to come.

Peter wrote;
"the roll bar does not - repeat does not, impede full setting and dig in".
When is an anchor set? I'd say it's when it's fluke is several inches (like 4 or 5) below the surface. In most conditions most roll bars are still mostly above the surface at that point so I don't think roll bars impede setting and/or digging in until the roll bar is half way submerged. When it's fully submerged then the anchor would be much better off w/o the roll bar.
Haha I didn't know the Spade had a short shank. I really like the Spade but I think it needs a little modification to it's fluke tip to enhance it's setting dependability. I'm w XYZ on the short shank theory. A long shank is a lever that tends to break out an anchor but also adds considerably more weight to a part of the anchor that is not the fluke. The biggest secret to anchor advancement in my opinion is minimizing all on the anchor that is not fluke. I think the French designer of the Spade got the fluke right. Don't see how it can be improved upon. Concave a little and probably close to square is probably best. Perhaps the "horn" on top of the XYZ is more effective than the roll bar at insuring that the fluke tip is presented to the bottom at an attitude that promotes quick setting and dosn't reduce performance as much. I'd like to weld an XYZ horn onto a Supreme or Rocna and try it. Removing the roll bar of course.
And yes Peter, Manson does seem happy w their slotted shank. But I don't think Manson knows as much about the slotted shank as SARCA does.

Here is the modified XYZ I've been referring to. See that it has a big fluke and very small, short and light shank. The appendage that serves the same purpose as the roll bar is much smaller and impedes penetration much less. This anchor has a home fabricated tip that is wide and chisel shaped. The original was very pointed and had sawtooth edges all the way to the tip.
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Old 09-17-2013, 01:12 PM   #57
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>Can we discuss religion or politics instead of anchors. We all know that the best anchor is the one I use<


And we can scrap all the boats that carry a spare engine too!

Anchors , engines , power vs sail gas vs diesel are ALL RELIGIONS, reality need not apply!
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Old 09-17-2013, 04:49 PM   #58
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>Can we discuss religion or politics instead of anchors. We all know that the best anchor is the one I use<

>hmason,
If you don't like reading about anchors why are you reading about anchors?<


My comment was tongue in cheek so to speak. Sorry if Manyboats took it the wrong way or didn't understand it. I trust that most readers took it as an attempt at humor. The point was an analogy to other topics where personal opinion and experiences form longer term beliefs.
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Old 09-17-2013, 05:03 PM   #59
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Eric, that modified XYZ looks like anything but an anchor.
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Old 09-17-2013, 09:08 PM   #60
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Andy, your experience of the fabulous state of the art anchor first set was mine too, it didn`t. Uh-oh, what have I bought?
I found the shackles getting overly familiar with each other, ie the slot shackle and the chain attachment one hung up together. I figured that messed up the set by affecting the slot shackle location, so I fitted an old style swivel to keep them apart. It worked, and cured chain twist I had for a long time which apart from anything else, slowed retrieve. After that it sets beautifully.
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