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Old 10-21-2011, 12:30 PM   #101
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Windlass, not a clue!!!

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nomadwilly wrote:Anchoring fore and aft has a terrible downside in a cross wind as tension on the rodes would become strong enough to drag most any anchor, especially one full of weeds. And the boat would not only become part of the rode it would be broadside to cross winds.
*Absolutely.* We so far have only used our stern anchor in two situations.* One is when the winds in a relatively protected, narrow bay, like Fossil Bay on Sucia Island.* The waves kicked up outside by southerly winds only enter the bay one way--- straight down it's length.* But the winds can shift to blow across the bay at some angle or another.* So your moored or anchored boat points into the wind which puts it at an angle to the waves and the end result is a pitching, rolling movement that can become annoying afer awhile.* So we put the stern anchor out to keep the boat lined up with the waves.* The crosswinds can't get strong enough in bays like Fossil to cause the problem you describe.

The other instance is when we've been rafted with one or more boats and put out a couple of anchors to keep us in place when the wind kicked up.* With two bow anchors out the last thing we want is for the wind to shift and rotate the raft around and twist the anchor rodes together.* So we put a stern anchor out to keep the raft oriented properly to the bow anchors.

But---- there has been at least one instance when we've put our stern anchor out in Fossil Bay and the wind shifted to blow hard from dead astern.* The constant wind pressure from behind us set the Fortress stern anchor REALLY well.* As I said, it and its rode are sized to be the main anchor of our boat so we weren't concerned about breaking anything.*

I can usually break out the Fortress by hand from the dinghy if all it's done is keep our stern from yawing around in a mild crosswind.* But this time I couldn't budge it.

In the end we had to carry the stern anchor rode forward, cleat it off, then let go of the mooring buoy, and then ease the boat up over the Fortress using the gyspy drum on the windlass, tighten up and cleat off the nylon rode and use the boat's motion to break out the Fortress at which point we could retrieve it by hand.

So I agree, stern anchors can be very useful under several circumstances but they can also cause problems if you don't anticipate what might happen if--- or when--- the wind shifts.* If we think a stern anchor would be beneficial in a certain situation we always try to get a picture of what the winds are supposed to do during our stay before we make the decision to deploy it.

For people unfamiliar with this area, below are two views of Fossil Bay on Sucia.* The mouth of the bay faces southeast, and if the winds are from that direction they can kick up significant waves out in Rosario Strait that bend around and come stright in and up the bay.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 21st of October 2011 12:48:33 PM
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Old 10-21-2011, 02:37 PM   #102
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Very interesting Dave. I've never considered a 180 degree deployment. At high tide that would be doable but it may get interesting if another boat wanted past. Of course a 180 would turn into a 120 at low tide. Most of the time a Bahamian moor is to anchor in a channel or slough where current flows both ways. At least that's the way I perceived it. Reading Chapman's recommendations I could deploy my bow anchor after setting the stern anchor w all the rode out. Then stop my engine. Hand pulling my boat aft to where I can set the bow anchor w the stern anchor line out of the water. Some pulling in on the stern anchor would be necessary so would require 2 people. When alone one could use one of those big bungie cords that are used for self mooring to keep the stern line out of the water and "get er done". What an idea Dave. I'll let you know if I ever try it.
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Old 10-21-2011, 02:57 PM   #103
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

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nomadwilly wrote:
*Of course a 180 would turn into a 120 at low tide..
*With our tides it could even turn into a 60 at low tide.**The idea is both anchors are deployed off the bow. So you wind up with the boat setting in the middle. If the wind or current swings you, you just spin around*by bow. I have tried doing the stern anchor and never really liked it. I have tied off to shore, that works but best in a calm anchorage with just the tide to worry about.

Wind or strong current I would rather have the boat spin around by the bow.

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Old 10-22-2011, 09:57 AM   #104
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Willy,

What are the shore ties for and what if the wind changes and the stern swings toward the shore. Looks like the boat could get caught up in the shore tie. By the way there is a new boat in Thorne Bay w a home made Northill. The home made ones have fixed stocks that are reinforced w welded rod like an A frame.*
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Old 10-22-2011, 11:33 AM   #105
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Regarding the notion of using two anchors off the bow at an angle, what happens when, as often does when we anchor, the current reverses and the boat does a 180? And in some of the places we anchor, the boat is constantly moving round, completing many rotations over the time we're there. Seems to me that anchoring with two anchors off the bow would result in a big wind-up of the two rodes.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:54 AM   #106
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

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Marin wrote:
Regarding the notion of using two anchors off the bow at an angle, what happens when, as often does when we anchor, the current reverses and the boat does a 180? And in some of the places we anchor, the boat is constantly moving round, completing many rotations over the time we're there. Seems to me that anchoring with two anchors off the bow would result in a big wind-up of the two rodes.
*I don't know about that one. I have used this set up before and I didn't have a problem. Once it did get a little twisted but the second rode was only 200 ft with a 100'*coiled I just unwrapped it from the other anchor. 2 or 3 turns.

I guess you could rig some sort of swivel. I don't know the Bahamian moor has been around a long time. Gotta go find a Bahamian to ask *I guess.

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Old 01-07-2012, 09:36 AM   #107
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

I'd like to butt in here...Marin, I think I'm in agreement with you. Nylon has such wonderful shock absorbing abilities, chain is heavy and piles up on the bottom (when I dive, I've seen this...) and is impervious to chaffing AND keeps the shank down low; so for me, a combination seems a good compromise. I am purchasing on Monday, a Lofrans 1500 vertical windlass with chain gypsy and capstan. My rode will consist of 250' of 3/4" nylon rode spliced to 125' of G4 5/16" chain ending at a 63 lb. CQR plow. My 42' Bristol displaces 35000 lbs. and everything I've read in here and elswhere tells me I'll be able to sleep at night. I am only unsure abou the chain size...should I go 3/8"?

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Old 01-07-2012, 12:15 PM   #108
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Steve,

I'd go for a much shorter length of 1/2" chain. Would that be compatable w your winch etc? Prolly not. Just an idealistic idea.

Eric Henning
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:43 AM   #109
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Windlass, not a clue!!!

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stevensibs wrote:
My 42' Bristol displaces 35000 lbs. and everything I've read in here and elswhere tells me I'll be able to sleep at night. I am only unsure abou the chain size...should I go 3/8"?


*We have a 36' boat that displaces abut 28,000 pounds.* Our anchor is 44 pounds.* We use 3/8" chain (all chain rode). With your boat I wouldn't go any smaller than that.

If you have not already done so I highly recommend the book "The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring" by Earl Hinz.* Best book I've seen to date on everything you might want to know on the subject including sizing anchors and rode.


-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 8th of January 2012 03:45:46 AM
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:00 AM   #110
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Take a look at the breaking strength of the 3/8 chain and remember that 3/4 nylon wont be stretching much till at least 10% of its breaking load is applied.
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Old 01-08-2012, 01:14 PM   #111
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Actually, I was in error. Our boat's original windlass had a wildcat sized for 5/16" chain and we ordered our Lofrans Tigres with the same size wildcat. So we have an all-chain rode of 5/16" chain, not 3/8."
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:43 PM   #112
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Hey Marin,

I was about to start talk'in about your excessively heavy chain.

FF,

When I pull hard w my own body on my 25' spring line of 1/2" dia there is an amazing amout of stretch. Feels like a big rubber band.

Eric
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:08 AM   #113
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

"When I pull hard w my own body on my 25' spring line of 1/2" dia there is an amazing amout of stretch. Feels like a big rubber band."

There is a huge difference between straightening out the catinary , and stretching the line.
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:58 AM   #114
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Eric, I just got off the phone with Imtra, the distributor of Lofrans. They practically ordered me to go with 3/8" G4 HT chain spliced to my already purchased 3/4" nylon line. I have a HUGE anchor locker and the weight won't even budge my fat boat downward. They said "if you want peace of mind go with 3/8". The 1500W of power on this windlass won't even break a sweat pulling up your tackle". So...as I am a student not a master, I do what I am told. LOL
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:01 AM   #115
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Oh and BTW, thanks Marin, I just ordered the book from Amazon.

Steve
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:38 AM   #116
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Steve,

Excess weight is undesirable on a boat. There are others that think just like the winch guys.....Marin being one of them but I am sure the combination rode is best. Chapman thinks so too. The book says the best rode is nylon line and a short length of chain. But some of these newer anchors require a longer scope than the traditional Danforths and claws and probably will benefit from more chain but I see ALL chain as a lot of excessive weight for no measurable gain. However nothing really bad will probably ever become of you w all 3/8ths except more slop and spray on your windshield. But installing unnecessary weight on ones boat can be a habit and accumulative over time such that a good boat can be turned into a dog that wallows in seas and is sluggish in getting her bow up on head seas. I think if I ever went to all chain on Willy it would be high test a size smaller than normal and I would do it for convenience.

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Old 01-10-2012, 12:59 PM   #117
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Windlass, not a clue!!!

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nomadwilly wrote:I am sure the combination rode is best. Chapman thinks so too. .... But installing unnecessary weight on ones boat can be a habit and accumulative over time such that a good boat can be turned into a dog that wallows in seas and is sluggish in getting her bow up on head seas. I think if I ever went to all chain on Willy it would be high test a size smaller than normal and I would do it for convenience.
*Eric--- We've talked about this before but I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all solution for anything in boating, particularly not anchoring.* Chapmans is one opinion, and a very old opinon at that, and one, I believe, based on east coast boating on top of that.* The book is not God, although some people seem to think so.

I think you may be getting far more caught up in theory than the situation warrants.* With a very light boat, or a small boat, or a planing boat, or a boat in which balance is really critical, I agree that putting more weight in the bow can be detrimental.* It's probably not a good idea in Carey's lobsterboat, for example.* But the picture you paint of a boat with all-chain rode taking water onto the windshield and plowing around bow-down is just plain wrong.

There is no appreciable change of trim, or spray, or speed, or anything if a couple of adults and dog move from our main cabin to our foredeck when we are underway.* And that's on top of having 200' of all-chain rode in the locker and 44# anchor on the pulpit.*

When we bought our boat the spec sheet said it had 200' of chain on the anchor but when we decided to replace the chain, we found there was only about 90' in the locker.* We replaced it with 200 feet.* This made zero difference to anything--- trim, spray, speed, you name it.* Obviously it made some difference--- you don't add weight anywhere on a boat without something happening.* But in terms of a practical, noticeable difference?** Zero.

Steve's 42', 35,000 pound boat is not going to notice the weight of 3/8" chain in the bow even if he went with a couple hundred feet of all-chain, which is certainly what I would use in the PNW.* Will it make a measurable change in trim?* Of course.* Will the measureable difference in trim make any difference to his boat's attitude in the water underway, his fuel consumption, the amount of water he takes over the bow or the volume of spray into his windshield?* Based on our experience with our boat, no.

Theory is all well and good, but there are lots of times when theory--- however correct it may be--- is not really relevant to reality.* This, I think, is one of those times, at least in terms of the kinds of boats Steve and I have.* Your boat may be--- and probably is--- a different story.

Like I said, there is no one-size-fits-all solution.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 10th of January 2012 02:02:26 PM
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:09 PM   #118
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

Marin,

We will never reach neutral ground on this. Excess weight to me is stupid. I just can't see having all that chain when it positively is'nt necessary. To me it's sloppy boating like having fenders hang'in over the side while under way. But my opinion is just that. It's a skipper's choice and either way works. So from now on why can't we just state what we think and go on. I'm not going to argue w you about what's right or best over and over any more. I state what I think then you state what you think and then everybody else is plenty smart enough to form their own minds around what THEY think. But about Chapman perhaps there's a big of argument left in me. I do'nt want to hear that Chapman's "OLD" stuff. Tell me what's wrong w what is presented in Chapnman's and I'll talk about that but the fact that Chapman's book started a long time ago dos'nt mean much to me and means everything to you. I know....if it ai'nt vogue it's garbage. Grandmother said cod liver oil was good in 1918 and I say it's good now. But you could prove me wrong ...there may be outdated information in Chapman's or even wrong information but as I recall they up date the book every year or so and I do'nt expect to find any bad stuff in the book.

Eric
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:55 PM   #119
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

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nomadwilly wrote:
But about Chapman perhaps there's a big of argument left in me. I do'nt want to hear that Chapman's "OLD" stuff. Tell me what's wrong w what is presented in Chapnman's and I'll talk about that but the fact that Chapman's book started a long time ago dos'nt mean much to me and means everything to you.
Chapmans is a good source of information, but it's mostly general information (unless they've totally rewritten it since I bought my copy some ten or twelve years ago).

So on the subject of anchoring they cover the basics but don't go into much in the way of specifics.* Chapman's presents a one-size-fits-all*technique*in many areas, like anchoring, maneuvering, and so forth.* Earl Hinz's book on anchoring, for example,*makes the information in Chapman's seem like a grade school primer in comparison.

As I said, perhaps it's been totally rewritten.* But when I bought my copy and started looking at topics that interested me, I found myself saying "I already know all that, what I want is specific information that pertains to my kind of boat and where I boat."

Consequently, I don't view Chapmans as being particularly relevant to what I boat with or where I boat.* I*have purchased and read a number of books on subjects from anchoring to radar to weather.* But I have never found any use or reason to look anything up in Chapmans since my first perusal of it.* It's just too basic*and general*for my purposes.* Unless I want to know what side of the mast to fly a*courtesy flag*on.* For that, it's great.

So... a good reference book for novice boaters, in my opinion, but not the be all end all that I think a lot of people give it credit for being.
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Old 01-11-2012, 04:45 AM   #120
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RE: Windlass, not a clue!!!

The basics never change ,

the question of weather a 10lb per foot of boat anchor or a "new and Special" 20lb anchor will let you sleep, undisturbed. all night , is yours to decide.

While my preference so far for a tiny wind profile 50 ft boat is 60lb selections.

My next try will be an 80KG unit , 5 ft of 3/4 chain for a set it and forgetaboutit.
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