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Old 10-12-2010, 12:39 PM   #81
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Quote:
Larry M wrote:

So that says the boat could rotate/twist 60 times without the*chain kinking?* Does this make any sense?
Since every boater I know personally who anchors a lot has no use for a swivel in their rode, and we don't use a swivel, and given that the waters we anchor in are constantly moving our boats around our anchors, and I've not heard anyone I know who uses an all-chain rode ever say they've had a problem with an anchor rode twisting or kinking when they retrieved the anchor, I would say that what you wrote makes all sorts of sense.

The notion of being able to rotate an anchor more easily with a swivel so it doesn't ding the boat makes sense.** But when we had a swivel in our rode it made no difference to this whatsoever--- the anchor still came up any way it wanted to. In fact the swivel seemed to make it easier for the anchor to rotate around and whack the bow.* We eliminated the swivel for the reasons I've outlined earlier, but I've also noticed that without it the anchor is far less likely to rotate around as it comes up.* It may not be oriented correctly, but it doesn't swivel around as much when it's in the air.* This was true with the Bruce as well as with our current Rocna.

So strictly from my own point of view with regards to our boat, I see no value whatsoever in having a swivel, no matter how oversized or strong it might be.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 12th of October 2010 12:40:19 PM
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Old 10-12-2010, 12:52 PM   #82
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

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...* --- the anchor still came up any way it wanted to. In fact the swivel seemed to make it easier for the anchor to rotate around and whack the bow.* We eliminated the swivel for the reasons I've outlined earlier, but I've also noticed that without it the anchor is far less likely to rotate around as it comes up.* It may not be oriented correctly, but it doesn't swivel around as much when it's in the air.* This was true with the Bruce as well as with our current Rocna.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 12th of October 2010 12:40:19 PM
I dislike it when an anchor makes an unanticipated motion that can damage*the boat or me.* That's why I don't like anchors with moving parts.* (Being pinched twice*by a Danforth was too much.)

*
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Old 10-12-2010, 03:25 PM   #83
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

I've watched these threads through the years regarding swivels.* This is the way I look at it...* If the anchor is set in the substrate and the other end of the chain is set across the rollers and onto the windlass, how can it twist at all?* This is assuming an all-chain rode.* So why is it that I should need a swivel?* Another reason for an all-chain rode?* I don't see a reason for a swivel.* Unless I was in the business of selling them!

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Old 10-12-2010, 06:29 PM   #84
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

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I've watched these threads through the years regarding swivels.* This is the way I look at it...* If the anchor is set in the substrate and the other end of the chain is set across the rollers and onto the windlass, how can it twist at all?
The concern is that as the boat "circles" the anchor--- which it can and does up here but perhaps not in other waters with a lower or no tide range and minimal to no current changes--- the chain can be dragged around in one or more circles which can roll it over multiple times as this happens.* Even if there is little or no load on the anchor, the boats up here still move around a lot and drag their chains around on the bottom after them.*

This is the main reason behind the increasing tendency to close some waters in this area*up to 30 feet deep for anchoring because as the boats move around their anchors the dragging chains plow up the eelgrass beds which are essential habitats for crabs, small shrimp, and salmon fingerlings.

*
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Old 10-12-2010, 08:10 PM   #85
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

I just saw something interesting on the news. They showed the thing they're going to bring the Chilean miners up in and it clearly had a swivel attached. It was one of those barrel like swivels. I can see the possible need for it there but any twist that is in the chain from a wandering boat in the wind and tide should easily get unwound in 100' (or so) of chain on the way up. I don't think anybody needs a swivel on an anchor rode.
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:05 PM   #86
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Wonderful Eric.* I'll remove mine, and you can crew.* You can also be in charge of leaning over the bow, and turning 175# of steel with an 8' boat hook so it'll line up with the hawse pipe.* Big relief for me, I can tell you, what with you handling this instead of a nasty swivel making it easy.
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:24 PM   #87
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

So, I started this thread with a photograph. Had no idea so many comments would result.
After one of you all suggested that the anchor might spin on the way down I mentioned this to my wife who runs the winch. She said "sure *the anchor spins as it goes down". *I guess I should have asked her sooner.



I like this as probable cause.
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:56 PM   #88
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

No, the problem is dumping the chain on top of the anchor, allowing it to kink.* Back down on it once you hit bottom, and your problems will be largely solved.
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Old 10-12-2010, 10:59 PM   #89
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

I think we are usually moving astern even before the anchor hits bottom.
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Old 10-13-2010, 01:07 AM   #90
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

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nomadwilly wrote:

They showed the thing they're going to bring the Chilean miners up in and it clearly had a swivel attached. It was one of those barrel like swivels. I can see the possible need for it there.....
Plus anything hanging from a crane or suspended vertically like this is going to have the load on the swivel going straight through it, which is when a swivel is at its strongest.

*
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Old 10-13-2010, 04:32 AM   #91
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

"You can also be in charge of leaning over the bow, and turning 175# of steel with an 8' boat hook so it'll line up with the hawse pipe"

Shouldn't happen!

We have a P&S pair of hawse pipes on our 90/90 for at least 3 decades.

AS soon as the anchor is clear of the ground , hanging straight down , the weight of the chain causes* the chain to get* straight from its own weight and the anchor and mud.

No question some hawse pipes require a particular line up , but that's a design problem/flaw , not the result of twisted chain.

-- Edited by FF on Wednesday 13th of October 2010 04:33:38 AM
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Old 10-13-2010, 06:42 AM   #92
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

"I can see the possible need for it there but any twist that is in the chain from a wandering boat in the wind and tide should easily get unwound in 100' (or so) of chain on the way up."

I dont think so. It seems to me that the entire 100ft in your example will not be freely hanging from the boat to an end that can freely turn (the anchor).

If the dept of water is 15ft and you let out 100ft of chain, and the chain is twisted, you will be pulling up twisted chain all the way until the anchor is free from the mud. Once the anchor is hanging free and loose, THEN the chain can unwind.

Yes? No?

R.
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Old 10-13-2010, 08:14 AM   #93
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

FF, when you were a naval architect, being psychic must have come in real handy, what with the ability to see a "design problem/flaw" without ever having to use anything but your imagination.* Remarkable skill.

Ralphyost, Delfin uses a vertical windlass that has a perfectly straight run over a roller directly overboard.* The only amount of twist you need to invert the anchor so that it is facing the wrong way and can't be brought home is, well, 1/2 of a turn.* Since this only happens about once in 5 times, I honestly can't figure out the psychics of what conditions cause it sometimes and not others.* Flipping the Bruce over with a hook is an easy job with a swivel, but a nuisance without, hence the swivel.
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Old 10-13-2010, 08:53 AM   #94
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

"FF, when you were a naval architect, being psychic must have come in real handy, what with the ability to see a "design problem/flaw" without ever having to use anything but your imagination. Remarkable skill."


Actually growing up on City Island in NYC , back in the day of wooden boats gave me the ability to observe the best of the best.

Minnefords , Nevins , Consolidated and all the rest had marine railways ,, covered sheds and built and serviced almost anything.

Sure the cup boats were there but also tons of "houseboats " Trumphy's from 50 to about 80 ft.

And about every size and shape boat seen.

"Maid of Marion" about 95 ft was my favorite , but I got on almost all of them , by being a gopher.

The captains were usually far too lazy to WALK! anywhere ,
so small daily groceries , something from Mafia Brothers , the chandler would be good for a 25c tip. Great for 1956 and only bicycle expenses..

MY early experience convinced me the best way to "design" a boat was to STEAL!

Great ways of doing everything existed for a long time , the secret is research , to find them.

Never a need to reinvent the wheel! Just find a damn good one to COPY!

But best of all I could go aboard and see and talk to the boat operators , who were never shy if something worked like CRAP!

In FL my small library usually has a few ways to "solve" any problem, being good at spatila relationships (visualize in 3D) does help.


-- Edited by FF on Wednesday 13th of October 2010 08:54:51 AM
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:03 AM   #95
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Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

As with Delfin's setup, my roller allows the anchor and chain*to hang straight down. Gravity is a miracle The Bruce is designed so that the weight of the anchor immediately*swivels itself down when the shank enters the roller. Each time every time so far - again with the swivel allowing the rotation.

Marin, as an ex underground miner, I can tell you swivels work on very heavy loads. Please note there are no shackles on the Chile rescue capsule hoist cable.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Wednesday 13th of October 2010 09:16:47 AM
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:21 AM   #96
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Sunchaser, that was the way the 44# Bruce on our sailboat worked as well.* 20,000 miles and I can't remember when it didn't present in the right position.* On Delfin, a percentage of the time the Bruce presents 180 degrees off.* I think the issue is that with a lighter anchor, it will flip around when it gets close to the roller, like the Bruce always did on the sailboat.* However on Delfin, the thing weighs so much that it doesn't flip around because of the 4 times greater mass.*** A Bruce anchor actually wants to rotate out of position when its in the water because the path of least resistance is for the flukes to be bending away from the drag through the water, if you get my drift.* What is supposed to happen is that once in the air, they'll rotate as you start dragging them over the roller so they come home correctly.* With a bigger anchor, this doesn't seem to happen all of the time.* At least that's the theory.
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Old 10-13-2010, 10:25 AM   #97
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Sorry to get your feathers up Delfin. Having such a small boat I don't always think how it would be w a much larger boat. However I can't see why the anchor wouldn't come up exactly as it went down when it gets to the top as the chain on the gypsy will not allow any twist at all. Even if it's twisted badly on the bottom when the anchor lifts off it should promptly start to assume it's prior alignment. As the anchor rises it should rotate to unwind the twist and the closer it gets to the bow roller the greater the force should be that causes it to realign to it's original position. Actually perhaps the swivel could CAUSE the problem as the chain WILL come over the bow exactly as it went down and w a swivel the anchor could come up 90 or 270 degrees different than it went down. So you see it's possible the swivel is causing the problem instead of preventing it. With my 90% nylon rode my new anchor (when I get it) will not clock itself in any way at all so I will always need to hang over the bow and coax it to align to the bow roller. Perhaps I've missed another advantage to the all chain rode but if you guys need a swivel that may not be true.
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Old 10-13-2010, 11:04 AM   #98
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

As Delfin aptly points out, the swivel does greatly help align the anchor shank to the roller.

We have noticed many coupled have the women operate the boat during anchoring and the man operates the anchor machinery. We dont. When we bought the trawler, I allowed my bride the option to choose: run the boat or the anchor operation. She was more comfortable with the anchor. So now she is my Anchor Babe.
http://tinyurl.com/3ycxkt8

She doesnt have a lot of strength (or patience) to spin the anchor. So the swivel is essential for her ease of operation and quality of life ! We use a fairly heavy SuperMaxx anchor and use the boat pole in the picture to align it when retrieving.

I think the answer is clear.

If a swivel is desired, then by all means it can be safely and securely used as long as you choose a swivel that is rated at least as high as the chain strength. And, it should attach to an equally strong shackle which mates to the shank of the anchor.

Next eternal debate: which anchor is best?

R.
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Old 10-13-2010, 11:43 AM   #99
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

Ralphyost - Which anchor is best?* My current theory is that the answer has a lot more to do with the weight range you are talking about than the design of the anchor itslef.* In other words, one design that performs best in the 30# test won't do nearly as well in the 100# test.* If you watch the videos that Rocna has done, and others on Youtube, you can see CQRs and Bruces dragging merrily along the beach while the 30# Rocna digs in.* However, if you were to repeat the test with 175# anchors, I can guarantee that the Bruce would dig in.* The original design was for for anchoring oil rigs, and they didn't use 50# models for that.* For lighter weights, I think there are much better designs than the Bruce.

So, my conclusion is that in the weight that I want - 150# plus - the Bruce type is best because once dug in, it's not a plow like the Rocna or the CQR, but a big, wide hunk of metal that doesn't want to move through the subsurface.* Were I needing a 40# anchor, I would probably go with a Rocna type.*

I've used Danforth sytles, and like them, but they are a pain to handle and ultimately won't/can't bury themselves like a Bruce will if the Bruce is heavy enough. That said, I carry an 85# Fortress as a secondary.
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Old 10-13-2010, 12:14 PM   #100
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RE: Why does the anchor shackle Kink like this?

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sunchaser wrote:

Marin, as an ex underground miner, I can tell you swivels work on very heavy loads. Please note there are no shackles on the Chile rescue capsule hoist cable.

I'm not questioning the strength of swivels when used properly.* In applications where they are installed properly so the load goes straight through the axis of the swivel, they are fine as long as the load doesn't exceed the strength of the swivel.* It's only when a side load is put on a swivel--- one end being pulled sideways while the other end is fastened*in such a way as to*prevent the swivel from "pointing" at the load--- that breaking problems can occur.* This is the setup people introduce when they attach a swivel directy to the anchor using the "legs" on the swivel.* But if one doesn't do that but installs it in such a way that it can pivot and rotate any direction that the load demands to keep the axis of the swivel lined up with the load, they're fine.

I don't believe in using them in an anchor rode not because they don't work (if you install them correctly) but because I don't believe they add anything to the picture. It's an unnecessary component in my view.** If there is any twist to the anchor rode--- and around here the way boats are moved around their anchors by currents and wind*I'm sure there is--- it all comes out as soon as the anchor leaves the bottom.*

I've never had our anchor--- Bruce or Rocna--- come up revolving on the chain*by the time it got to the suface.* It may not be aligned to come over*the bow roller the right way, but once it's reached the surface it's settled into whatever alignment it's going to have and it's not revolving at all.* The boat's movement in waves might make it swing but it never rotates.* It did*rotate*sometimes*when we had a swivel in the rode which as far as I was concerned made aligning it even more*of a pain.* So in our experience a swivel was of no benefit and simply added a component to a system*we believe is best off with as few components as possible.

If someone needs a swivel to help position the anchor prior to it coming up over the bow roller or into a hawsepipe and that's the only way to properly position the anchor without banging up the boat, then a swivel is the answer as long as it's installed correctly.

*
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